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For what it's worth... I dough-in letting the agitator run gently. Bit by bit the grain is scooped in there. Avoids clumps as well.

If no SMB would be present, I'd probably consider a machine/setup similar to the MechaMasher
 
jddevinn said:
The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out
Click to expand...

I would not say "easily". Lagering ales doesn't seem to have much effect on excess sulfur due to too much NaMeta. Gassing co2 through is 1) anti-productive, 2) wasteful and costs $, and 3) is not completely effective.

TheHairyHop said:
I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method
Click to expand...

The dextrose/yeast method requires both dextrose and yeast, and significant added time. The boiling method just requires extra time, and not nearly as much time as the dex/yeast method. That may be one reason.
 
Yeastieboy said:
Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...
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I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling? I started doing it to lower O2 ingress but in all honesty its 1000x easier and LODO in mind or not its a permanent change in my process personally. The way I see it is why add grain bit by bit when you can just start a siphon and sit there :D


On a separate note.... is anyone that is having problems with dough balls tried a short step mash or even mashing in at glucanase rest temps and ramping up to help loosen up the mash?
 
stpug said:
The dextrose/yeast method requires both dextrose and yeast, and significant added time. The boiling method just requires extra time, and not nearly as much time as the dex/yeast method. That may be one reason.
Click to expand...

You can do the oxygen scavenging method in as little as 45 minutes, or overnight. Every time I did the boiling method it took longer than 45 minutes and was a bigger hassle then adding some bread yeast and corn sugar. And the timing flexibility offered by the yeast method makes it better for my situation.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling? I started doing it to lower O2 ingress but in all honesty its 1000x easier and LODO in mind or not its a permanent change in my process personally. The way I see it is why add grain bit by bit when you can just start a siphon and sit there :D
Click to expand...

Single vessel brewing means you don't have a separate vessel to heat the water in to underlet.

Also, specifically regarding my set up, I want to heat the water in the vessel I'm mashing in because I like to purge the air out of my pump and plate exchanger during the deoxygenation step. If I waited to start the pump after doughing in I would increase oxygen uptake.

Now one thing I don't know is this. Am I introducing more oxygen by my dough in method than underletting? If so, is the increase offset by purging my pump and exchanger during the deoxygenation step?
 
TexasWine said:
Single vessel brewing means you don't have a separate vessel to heat the water in to underlet.

Also, specifically regarding my set up, I want to heat the water in the vessel I'm mashing in because I like to purge the air out of my pump and plate exchanger during the deoxygenation step. If I waited to start the pump after doughing in I would increase oxygen uptake.

Now one thing I don't know is this. Am I introducing more oxygen by my dough in method than underletting? If so, is the increase offset by purging my pump and exchanger during the deoxygenation step?
Click to expand...


I guess it depends what temp your looking to mash in at. I mash in around 90f, make ph adjustments, then ramp up. Since I'm treating the brewing water in a cooler I guess it's technically not single vessel but it's not like I'm having to heat another kettle either I'm working on a Braumeister. Obviously if your looking to mash in at hotter temps then it's an issue but doughing in lower lends some other options.
As for the pump...this is purely anecdotal but when I switched from treating the water in the BM then mashing in to bottom filling the following batch was a sulfur bomb. The next batches used about half the SMB and are much better. I'm having to prime my pump after dough in too but being able to cut the SMB in half makes me believe it's allowing less ingress.
 
TheHairyHop said:
I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method
Click to expand...

I guess you'd have to compare it to what the German fellas are proposing. However, I'm not familiar with the dextrose/yeast method and will have to read up...

KeyWestBrewing said:
I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling?
Click to expand...


Single vessel brewing.
 
Yeastieboy said:
I guess you'd have to compare it to what the German fellas are proposing. However, I'm not familiar with the dextrose/yeast method and will have to read up...




Single vessel brewing.
Click to expand...


Unless using a cooler as a pseudo HLT is out of the question everything else works for single vessel brewing. The system I brew on is basically a fancy electric BIAB system. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with this I'm just throwing out a process tweak I found to be easy and more effective. If you have a cooler laying around like a lot of people do give it a shot.
 
TexasWine said:
You can do the oxygen scavenging method in as little as 45 minutes, or overnight. Every time I did the boiling method it took longer than 45 minutes and was a bigger hassle then adding some bread yeast and corn sugar. And the timing flexibility offered by the yeast method makes it better for my situation.
Click to expand...


Can you tell me how the oxygen scavenging method would work for my 7.89 gallons of water that I plan to brew with this Friday? Maybe I will try that.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
Unless using a cooler as a pseudo HLT is out of the question everything else works for single vessel brewing. The system I brew on is basically a fancy electric BIAB system. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with this I'm just throwing out a process tweak I found to be easy and more effective. If you have a cooler laying around like a lot of people do give it a shot.
Click to expand...


I understand what you're saying... I think. I have a BoilCoil in my kettle so I'd have to heat strike water, dump to another vessel and then underlet back into my kettle.
 
Yeastieboy said:
I understand what you're saying... I think. I have a BoilCoil in my kettle so I'd have to heat strike water, dump to another vessel and then underlet back into my kettle.
Click to expand...

Not exactly, I'll lay it out.

1. Add all brewing water and sugar to cooler. Water can be room temp for this.
2. Add yeast and seal cooler.
3. When your ready, add the SMB and seal cooler back up for another 5 mins. Now the water is ready to transfer into the kettle to mash in.

As soon as the water covers your coils you can turn the heat on and start ramping up to whatever temperature your mashing at. You can use this extra time to adjust your ph before hitting conversion temps.
 
Yeastieboy said:
Thanks! Are you typically waiting 3-4 hours or just letting in go overnight? I imagine there's a point where the water begins to reabsorb O2.
Click to expand...

Usually I wait 45 minutes to 2-3 hours, depending on what I've got going on. And you're right, there would be a point at which the yeast would stop working.

There's also the concept of putting water in a keg, throwing the yeast and dextrose, sealing it up, and Wham-O you've got water whenever you want it, completely free of oxygen. Send like it would work great if you're doing smaller batches that need 5 gallons of water or less.
 
I think I will dose my water directly in the kettle with active dry yeast (1.6g/G) and corn sugar (0.8g/G), give it a few hours, hit it with SMB (40mg/l) and then mash in by slowly lowering the grain basket in at strike temp. Seems like the best solution for a first attempt.
 
Just a note.. the yeast will do their DO removal job much faster at temperatures around 90f.
 
Guys, would the use of these new generation disposable kegs (keykegs, ecofass, etc) help our lodo cause?

- No co2 purging concerns as you are filling into an empty bag
- No DO pickup from o2 within dispense co2 gas - there is no contact between the dispense gas and the beer
- No DO pickup from multiple attaching of gas line QD - air pocket inside QD, air inside lines, and air ingress over time in gas lines

You must be able to hook up a spunding valve somehow, and failing this use a carefully dosed amount of dextrose to achieve oxygen scavenge and carbonation?

Bonus: you are dispensing from the top of the keg so the yeast stays at the bottom and comes out during the last serve only

129.png
 
I don't know the answers but your real questions here are what are the kegs and bags actually made of and how permeable is that material? Also what do the bags look like before beer is packaged into it? Flattened/air vacuumed?
 
anyone know the changes with respect to the editions of Kunze's book? I have the 3rd edition that was printed in 2004, but I am not sure of its relevance to the brand new version
 
It is entirely possible that less yeast would still do a good job of removing the DO but I didn't get around to exploring the lower limits. Since the dead cells end up being a nutrient the higher amount probably isn't an issue in your beer.

Remember though unlike the rest of the LoDO process and procedures described at the GBF forum.. this yeast deox procedure is still experimental and in my opinion requires more testing.
 
I do think we need to get more DO2 datapoints compared to the volume of yeast added. Dry Active /= Instant yeast.

Considering the preliminary data that shows yeast scavenged strike liquor has a lower DO2 than boiled water makes me wish I had an DO2 meter.
 
I've been just using a Tbsp of each yeast/sugar. I bought a brick of bakers yeast so this was easier than weighing it out every time. IIRC weight comes to a little under 11g for yeast and a little over for sugar.
 
I agree we need some more data on appropriate levels of yeast and dextrose. Whoever came up with that, bravo! Genius, but simple at the same time.

I've been adding 75% of the Yeast/Dextrose the night before or morning of, then adding the remaining 25% once I start heating my mash water. Don't know if it makes a difference, but I figured it would mop up any O2 that might have went back in. Plus the yeast/dextrose works faster when warmer. My mash water sits inside, which is 70-75 deg F. If you look at the dry yeasts from the store, they say to dissolve in warm water. Here's the ranges for Fleischmans:

100°–110°F is the ideal temperature for Active Dry Yeast and 120°-130°F is the ideal temperature for RapidRise® and Bread Machine Yeast

I have been using Hodgson's Mill which suggests 100-115 deg F.

I have noticed that the Rapid Rise yeast varieties have Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) as an ingredient, where the normal active yeasts do not and just have Sorbitan Monostearate and Yeast.
 
for your typical SAF Instant Yeast:

SECTION 3: Composition / Information on Ingredients
Ingredients CAS# % by Weight
Yeast (S. cerevisiae) 8013-01-2 >98%
Sorbitan Monostearate 822-16-2 1%
Ascorbic Acid 50-81-7 < 1%
 
jdebonth said:
O2 pick-up per 6 months is <0.2 or 0.3 mg / l (ppm) depending on the size.

Materials
Inner bag = Alufoil laminate, 69 &#956; thickness
Container = PET

https://www.keykeg.com/uploads/files/technical properties combined ENG.pdf

The bag is fully evacuated by pressurizing surrounding keg (up to 6 bar / 87 psi) before filling...
Click to expand...

Am I reading this right.... potential ingress of .2-.3 ppm per 6 months? If so and Im doing the math right, always questionable lol, that would give you about a little over 6 month shelf life if the beer ready for package is in the 25ppb range breweries shoot for. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm fudging something.



Couple quick reads I came across figured I'd share....

https://tapintohach.com/2012/05/14/...oxygen-content-what-is-the-industry-standard/


http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US19940124752

Progress in beer oxidation control. [1993]
Huige N.J. 80. Oktobertagung der VLB. Schwerpunktthema: "Neue Entwicklungen in der Brauereianalytik". Berlin (Germany). 11-14 Oct 1993.

Abstract

Beer flavor instability is caused by the formation of volatile, long chain, unsaturated carbonyls with low flavor thresholds and unpleasant flavors. Long chain unsaturated aldehydes, such as trans-2-nonenal which contributes a cardboard-like flavor, are prime contributors. Five main mechanisms for the formation of volatile, long chain, unsaturated carbonyls are discussed: 1) Strecker degradation of amino acids; 2) melanoidin mediated oxidation of higher alcohols; 3) oxidative degradation of iso-alpha-acids; 4) aldol condensation of short chain aldehydes, and, 5) enzymatic or non-enzymatic oxidation of fatty acids. Various mechanisms are most likely involved including the enzymatic degradation of fatty acids during malting and mashing followed by auto-oxidation of intermediates in the brewhouse to precursors which are oxidized in the package under the influence of free radical forms of oxygen. Various methods to minimize oxidation reaction are discussed in detail. They are: 1) maintaining a high reducing potential through oxidation control in the brewhouse; 2) minimizing oxygen pickup by the product in cellar operation, during packaging, and during product storage; 3) minimizing oxygen radicals through optimal use of endogenous and exogenous antioxidants and through minimizing copper and iron pickup; and, 4) avoidance of high storage temperatures."
 
Brewed with the yeast/dextrose treated water tonight. Slowly lowered fresh ground grain in vs. underletting. Minimized splashing and spraying for the first time ever on my recirculating eBIAB system. Everything went well except conversion due to other reasons. Low pH perhaps. Efficiency was only about 55%. The wort (Pils) really tastes amazing. I had hoped to pitch immediately and then oxygenate but even with a pre-chiller in an ice bath, I couldn't get it below 60 (damn TX summer die already). I'm pitching WLP830 and don't want to pitch warm so I will wait till morning to pitch and oxygenate. A LoDO No-No... I know. [emoji17]

[AM Update] Oxygenated at pitched!
 
I want to do a LoDO IPA as my next brew. I've seen some chatter on here about ale yeasts not tolerating the sulfites as well as the lager yeasts so I was considering my options. I've made an IPA with a lager yeast before, at lager temps, and while it was good, it wasn't what i was looking for because it was too clean.

So i'm looking to attempt this again, but was thinking my options could be:
1. Pitch ale yeast (Wy1450), but maybe dial back the sulfites (probably 50%)
2. Pitch a lager yeast (i've got 2035 american lager and 2633 octoberfest blend on hand) and ferment on the warm side. I'd probably do the 2035 at 58F.

I would likely be dry hopping in the keg with a few gravity points to go, then adding priming sugar to the serving keg to keep it LoDO.

Thoughts?
 
schematix said:
I want to do a LoDO IPA as my next brew. I've seen some chatter on here about ale yeasts not tolerating the sulfites as well as the lager yeasts so I was considering my options. I've made an IPA with a lager yeast before, at lager temps, and while it was good, it wasn't what i was looking for because it was too clean.

So i'm looking to attempt this again, but was thinking my options could be:
1. Pitch ale yeast (Wy1450), but maybe dial back the sulfites (probably 50%)
2. Pitch a lager yeast (i've got 2035 american lager and 2633 octoberfest blend on hand) and ferment on the warm side. I'd probably do the 2035 at 58F.

I would likely be dry hopping in the keg with a few gravity points to go, then adding priming sugar to the serving keg to keep it LoDO.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I would argue you don't need much or any smb for an IPA because you won't be tasting the malt character anyway. I think I used something like 1/5 the prescribed amount for the hop stand for my first IPA, and then just didn't bother for my second. To me, it's all about keeping that dry hopping lodo. Your method sounds fine. It's fairly straightforward tbh.
 
Gotta agree. I've made 3 attempts at IPAs and I noticed zero difference in malt character. Malty styles are a very different story but I just think the balance is too far skewed with IPAs. Just my 2 cents.
 
I'm honestly beginning to wonder if doing a "quick lager" fermentation schedule with a lager yeast would aid in lowering DO at colder temps when you're adding a second round of dry hopping with added sugars. That being said, you can just use your favorite IPA yeast with that approach
 
Yeastieboy said:
A LoDO No-No... I know. [emoji17]
Click to expand...

I remember it well. It happened when I translated a passage where Narziss mentioned that keeping the wort overnight in a tank is a bad idea (12 hours)

We interpreted it as protecting the wort from excess oxygen ingress (we actually tried a fermentation using headspace oxygen only - with lacklustre results).

Nowadays I understand that it's also to protect against the possibility of thermobacter infecting the wort.

Nobody ever measured the ingress of oxygen during an overnight rest - guess nobody wanted to sacrifice their wort.

If you have a DO meter and need to resort to this again, a measurement would be very interesting.

How cold can you get your wort?
 
My apologies for being ambiguous, I meant during chilling.

15-16 Celsius doesn't sound too high. I found that running it though a chiller like a Cornelius Maxi 310 after the heat exchanger, brings it to 5 Celsius instantly.

One Could try adding just a little bit of yeast as anti-oxidant at 15C/60F, then pitch the rest once the desired temperature is reached.
 

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