Interesting German Brewing PDF

[TexasWine]

Can you tell me how the oxygen scavenging method would work for my 7.89 gallons of water that I plan to brew with this Friday? Maybe I will try that.

You can read about it in this thread.

The short of it is, 1.6 g/gallon yeast and 0.8 g/gallon dextrose. Add to water and wait. Add SMB just before doughing in.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=355

 

[TheHairyHop]

I was just about to say that posts 416 and 466 have good info, but that link is what I was really looking for

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I understand what you're saying... I think. I have a BoilCoil in my kettle so I'd have to heat strike water, dump to another vessel and then underlet back into my kettle.

Not exactly, I'll lay it out.

1. Add all brewing water and sugar to cooler. Water can be room temp for this.
2. Add yeast and seal cooler.
3. When your ready, add the SMB and seal cooler back up for another 5 mins. Now the water is ready to transfer into the kettle to mash in.

As soon as the water covers your coils you can turn the heat on and start ramping up to whatever temperature your mashing at. You can use this extra time to adjust your ph before hitting conversion temps.

 

[enkamania]

You can read about it in this thread.

The short of it is, 1.6 g/gallon yeast and 0.8 g/gallon dextrose. Add to water and wait. Add SMB just before doughing in.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=355

I like this better than boiling. If you use dme, it will be 1.6g/gallon

 

[Yeastieboy]

You can read about it in this thread.

The short of it is, 1.6 g/gallon yeast and 0.8 g/gallon dextrose. Add to water and wait. Add SMB just before doughing in.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?t=355

Thanks! Are you typically waiting 3-4 hours or just letting in go overnight? I imagine there's a point where the water begins to reabsorb O2.

 

[TexasWine]

Thanks! Are you typically waiting 3-4 hours or just letting in go overnight? I imagine there's a point where the water begins to reabsorb O2.

Usually I wait 45 minutes to 2-3 hours, depending on what I've got going on. And you're right, there would be a point at which the yeast would stop working.

There's also the concept of putting water in a keg, throwing the yeast and dextrose, sealing it up, and Wham-O you've got water whenever you want it, completely free of oxygen. Send like it would work great if you're doing smaller batches that need 5 gallons of water or less.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I think I will dose my water directly in the kettle with active dry yeast (1.6g/G) and corn sugar (0.8g/G), give it a few hours, hit it with SMB (40mg/l) and then mash in by slowly lowering the grain basket in at strike temp. Seems like the best solution for a first attempt.

 

[Bilsch]

Just a note.. the yeast will do their DO removal job much faster at temperatures around 90f.

 

[jdebonth]

Guys, would the use of these new generation disposable kegs (keykegs, ecofass, etc) help our lodo cause?

- No co2 purging concerns as you are filling into an empty bag
- No DO pickup from o2 within dispense co2 gas - there is no contact between the dispense gas and the beer
- No DO pickup from multiple attaching of gas line QD - air pocket inside QD, air inside lines, and air ingress over time in gas lines

You must be able to hook up a spunding valve somehow, and failing this use a carefully dosed amount of dextrose to achieve oxygen scavenge and carbonation?

Bonus: you are dispensing from the top of the keg so the yeast stays at the bottom and comes out during the last serve only

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I don't know the answers but your real questions here are what are the kegs and bags actually made of and how permeable is that material? Also what do the bags look like before beer is packaged into it? Flattened/air vacuumed?

 

[jdebonth]

O2 pick-up per 6 months is <0.2 or 0.3 mg / l (ppm) depending on the size.

Materials
Inner bag = Alufoil laminate, 69 &#956; thickness
Container = PET

https://www.keykeg.com/uploads/files/technical properties combined ENG.pdf

The bag is fully evacuated by pressurizing surrounding keg (up to 6 bar / 87 psi) before filling...

 

[TheHairyHop]

anyone know the changes with respect to the editions of Kunze's book? I have the 3rd edition that was printed in 2004, but I am not sure of its relevance to the brand new version

 

[Yeastieboy]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1474597274.165355.jpg
Seems like a boatload (1.8g/G) of active dry bakers yeast to dump in 7.89G of water, no? Actually, now as I write this I realize it should have been even more (14.2g) total rather than 12.6g.

 

[Bilsch]

It is entirely possible that less yeast would still do a good job of removing the DO but I didn't get around to exploring the lower limits. Since the dead cells end up being a nutrient the higher amount probably isn't an issue in your beer.

Remember though unlike the rest of the LoDO process and procedures described at the GBF forum.. this yeast deox procedure is still experimental and in my opinion requires more testing.

 

[storunner13]

I do think we need to get more DO2 datapoints compared to the volume of yeast added. Dry Active /= Instant yeast.

Considering the preliminary data that shows yeast scavenged strike liquor has a lower DO2 than boiled water makes me wish I had an DO2 meter.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I've been just using a Tbsp of each yeast/sugar. I bought a brick of bakers yeast so this was easier than weighing it out every time. IIRC weight comes to a little under 11g for yeast and a little over for sugar.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Well I dumped it all in the morning for an early afternoon brew sesh so we will see!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I agree we need some more data on appropriate levels of yeast and dextrose. Whoever came up with that, bravo! Genius, but simple at the same time.

I've been adding 75% of the Yeast/Dextrose the night before or morning of, then adding the remaining 25% once I start heating my mash water. Don't know if it makes a difference, but I figured it would mop up any O2 that might have went back in. Plus the yeast/dextrose works faster when warmer. My mash water sits inside, which is 70-75 deg F. If you look at the dry yeasts from the store, they say to dissolve in warm water. Here's the ranges for Fleischmans:

100°&#8211;110°F is the ideal temperature for Active Dry Yeast and 120°-130°F is the ideal temperature for RapidRise® and Bread Machine Yeast

I have been using Hodgson's Mill which suggests 100-115 deg F.

I have noticed that the Rapid Rise yeast varieties have Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) as an ingredient, where the normal active yeasts do not and just have Sorbitan Monostearate and Yeast.

 

[storunner13]

for your typical SAF Instant Yeast:

SECTION 3: Composition / Information on Ingredients
Ingredients CAS# % by Weight
Yeast (S. cerevisiae) 8013-01-2 >98%
Sorbitan Monostearate 822-16-2 1%
Ascorbic Acid 50-81-7 < 1%

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

O2 pick-up per 6 months is <0.2 or 0.3 mg / l (ppm) depending on the size.

Materials
Inner bag = Alufoil laminate, 69 &#956; thickness
Container = PET

https://www.keykeg.com/uploads/files/technical properties combined ENG.pdf

The bag is fully evacuated by pressurizing surrounding keg (up to 6 bar / 87 psi) before filling...

Am I reading this right.... potential ingress of .2-.3 ppm per 6 months? If so and Im doing the math right, always questionable lol, that would give you about a little over 6 month shelf life if the beer ready for package is in the 25ppb range breweries shoot for. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm fudging something.



Couple quick reads I came across figured I'd share....

https://tapintohach.com/2012/05/14/...oxygen-content-what-is-the-industry-standard/


http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US19940124752

Progress in beer oxidation control. [1993]
Huige N.J. 80. Oktobertagung der VLB. Schwerpunktthema: "Neue Entwicklungen in der Brauereianalytik". Berlin (Germany). 11-14 Oct 1993.

Abstract

Beer flavor instability is caused by the formation of volatile, long chain, unsaturated carbonyls with low flavor thresholds and unpleasant flavors. Long chain unsaturated aldehydes, such as trans-2-nonenal which contributes a cardboard-like flavor, are prime contributors. Five main mechanisms for the formation of volatile, long chain, unsaturated carbonyls are discussed: 1) Strecker degradation of amino acids; 2) melanoidin mediated oxidation of higher alcohols; 3) oxidative degradation of iso-alpha-acids; 4) aldol condensation of short chain aldehydes, and, 5) enzymatic or non-enzymatic oxidation of fatty acids. Various mechanisms are most likely involved including the enzymatic degradation of fatty acids during malting and mashing followed by auto-oxidation of intermediates in the brewhouse to precursors which are oxidized in the package under the influence of free radical forms of oxygen. Various methods to minimize oxidation reaction are discussed in detail. They are: 1) maintaining a high reducing potential through oxidation control in the brewhouse; 2) minimizing oxygen pickup by the product in cellar operation, during packaging, and during product storage; 3) minimizing oxygen radicals through optimal use of endogenous and exogenous antioxidants and through minimizing copper and iron pickup; and, 4) avoidance of high storage temperatures."

 

[Yeastieboy]

Brewed with the yeast/dextrose treated water tonight. Slowly lowered fresh ground grain in vs. underletting. Minimized splashing and spraying for the first time ever on my recirculating eBIAB system. Everything went well except conversion due to other reasons. Low pH perhaps. Efficiency was only about 55%. The wort (Pils) really tastes amazing. I had hoped to pitch immediately and then oxygenate but even with a pre-chiller in an ice bath, I couldn't get it below 60 (damn TX summer die already). I'm pitching WLP830 and don't want to pitch warm so I will wait till morning to pitch and oxygenate. A LoDO No-No... I know. [emoji17]

[AM Update] Oxygenated at pitched!

 

[schematix]

I want to do a LoDO IPA as my next brew. I've seen some chatter on here about ale yeasts not tolerating the sulfites as well as the lager yeasts so I was considering my options. I've made an IPA with a lager yeast before, at lager temps, and while it was good, it wasn't what i was looking for because it was too clean.

So i'm looking to attempt this again, but was thinking my options could be:
1. Pitch ale yeast (Wy1450), but maybe dial back the sulfites (probably 50%)
2. Pitch a lager yeast (i've got 2035 american lager and 2633 octoberfest blend on hand) and ferment on the warm side. I'd probably do the 2035 at 58F.

I would likely be dry hopping in the keg with a few gravity points to go, then adding priming sugar to the serving keg to keep it LoDO.

Thoughts?

 

[TheHairyHop]

I want to do a LoDO IPA as my next brew. I've seen some chatter on here about ale yeasts not tolerating the sulfites as well as the lager yeasts so I was considering my options. I've made an IPA with a lager yeast before, at lager temps, and while it was good, it wasn't what i was looking for because it was too clean.

So i'm looking to attempt this again, but was thinking my options could be:
1. Pitch ale yeast (Wy1450), but maybe dial back the sulfites (probably 50%)
2. Pitch a lager yeast (i've got 2035 american lager and 2633 octoberfest blend on hand) and ferment on the warm side. I'd probably do the 2035 at 58F.

I would likely be dry hopping in the keg with a few gravity points to go, then adding priming sugar to the serving keg to keep it LoDO.

Thoughts?

I would argue you don't need much or any smb for an IPA because you won't be tasting the malt character anyway. I think I used something like 1/5 the prescribed amount for the hop stand for my first IPA, and then just didn't bother for my second. To me, it's all about keeping that dry hopping lodo. Your method sounds fine. It's fairly straightforward tbh.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Gotta agree. I've made 3 attempts at IPAs and I noticed zero difference in malt character. Malty styles are a very different story but I just think the balance is too far skewed with IPAs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[schematix]

Ale vs lager yeast?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Nottingham in low 60s

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if doing a "quick lager" fermentation schedule with a lager yeast would aid in lowering DO at colder temps when you're adding a second round of dry hopping with added sugars. That being said, you can just use your favorite IPA yeast with that approach

 

[Edelst0ff]

A LoDO No-No... I know. [emoji17]

I remember it well. It happened when I translated a passage where Narziss mentioned that keeping the wort overnight in a tank is a bad idea (12 hours)

We interpreted it as protecting the wort from excess oxygen ingress (we actually tried a fermentation using headspace oxygen only - with lacklustre results).

Nowadays I understand that it's also to protect against the possibility of thermobacter infecting the wort.

Nobody ever measured the ingress of oxygen during an overnight rest - guess nobody wanted to sacrifice their wort.

If you have a DO meter and need to resort to this again, a measurement would be very interesting.

How cold can you get your wort?

 

[Yeastieboy]

How cold can you get your wort?

If you mean during chilling, I can't seem to get below 60F. If you are referring to my fermentation chamber, I can set it to any desired temp.

 

[Edelst0ff]

My apologies for being ambiguous, I meant during chilling.

15-16 Celsius doesn't sound too high. I found that running it though a chiller like a Cornelius Maxi 310 after the heat exchanger, brings it to 5 Celsius instantly.

One Could try adding just a little bit of yeast as anti-oxidant at 15C/60F, then pitch the rest once the desired temperature is reached.