Interesting German Brewing PDF

[TheHairyHop]

My first LoDO (the helles) is 4 weeks and a day old. The sulfur is pretty much all gone now.

This beer has a very unique sweetness to it that I've never had before. Probably since I'm not used to it, it's kind of cloying.

Only flaw i've noted is that carbonation is just a hair low (2 vols by my calcs). My spunding valves had a slow leak and the beer quit a few points above what my FFT indicated. The last little bit will have to be force carbed as i put the kegs on tap.

Looking forward to doing another LoDO in a few weeks.

my spunding valve has a very tiny leak as well. I really don't know how to eliminate it. maybe I just could have done a better tape job

 

[schematix]

my spunding valve has a very tiny leak as well. I really don't know how to eliminate it. maybe I just could have done a better tape job

I redid 1 of them yesterday using PTFE thread sealant (oatey great white) and pressure tested it overnight. It dropped 2 psi, but the other 2 dropped to 0, so there is progress. I'm still suspect of the flare connection on mine since the angles aren't the same. I'm not quite ready to point fingers at the pressure relief valve itself yet.

I just redid the rest of them with thread compound. From my research this stuff is much better at resisting gas leaks (not natural gas - that uses a different compound). I'll report back in a day or two how they held up.

 

[Bilsch]

I use flare nylon washers to perfect the seal on these critical spunding valve joints. Also take great care to keep liquid out of the relief ball. Couple times wet and they get sticky and don't seal well anymore.

 

[schematix]

I use flare nylon washers to perfect the seal on these critical spunding valve joints. Also take great care to keep liquid out of the relief ball. Couple times wet and they get sticky and don't seal well anymore.

All 3 of my spunding valves dropped from 10.5 psi to 7 psi (+/-) overnight.

I'm going to go after the flare connections next. The flare fitting that i bought is 37 degrees on one end and 1/2" MPT on the other side. When i measured the angle of the flare on the keg disconnect it was 60 degrees, so i'm not 100% confident in this connection even with the nylon washer.

I think tonight i'm gonna hook them up to 30 psi and see if i can get it to leak fast enough to bubble up some soapy water.

I thought the gas QD i had might be crap too. I bought a ton of $4 QDs from bobby, and I regret going cheap. I did swap 1 of the 3 out for my higher quality QDs and it still leaks, so i'm not targeting that yet.

FML.

 

[Magnus314]

Anyone got a source for good pre-made spunding valves?

 

[Edelst0ff]

Anyone got a source for good pre-made spunding valves?

Eventually, everyone ends up with these.

I used to have cheaper ones, but they are not so great in the long run.

Hope this helps.

 

[Magnus314]

Good to know, thanks.

$220 dollars plus shipping, I'll pass.

 

[Edelst0ff]

It was a bit under carbonated and was bottled with a beer gun.

I bottle condition all my wheat beers, using a portion of saved wort (about 10% normal strength at 12 Plato), as priming agent (it's called "Speise")

The Schneider brewery does it this way.

There is a more accurate formula Nowadays I just use the calculators that come with many excellent free German brewing software, such as the BRD or the KBH.

 

[Spartan1979]

Good to know, thanks.

$220 dollars plus shipping, I'll pass.

They don't ship to the US anyhow.

 

[TheHairyHop]

All 3 of my spunding valves dropped from 10.5 psi to 7 psi (+/-) overnight.

I'm going to go after the flare connections next. The flare fitting that i bought is 37 degrees on one end and 1/2" MPT on the other side. When i measured the angle of the flare on the keg disconnect it was 60 degrees, so i'm not 100% confident in this connection even with the nylon washer.

I think tonight i'm gonna hook them up to 30 psi and see if i can get it to leak fast enough to bubble up some soapy water.

I thought the gas QD i had might be crap too. I bought a ton of $4 QDs from bobby, and I regret going cheap. I did swap 1 of the 3 out for my higher quality QDs and it still leaks, so i'm not targeting that yet.

FML.

shouldn't you be able to identify the actual source of the leak with some soapy water?

 

[schematix]

shouldn't you be able to identify the actual source of the leak with some soapy water?

I tried that when I first built them and it wasn't a fast enough leak to make a visible bubble.

This weekend I'm going to put 30 psi on it and try again.

 

[schematix]

I received my QUANTOFIX® Sulfite test strips today and was planning to test a few samples. When reading the directions I noticed it said that it only works between pH 6 and 9. This beer is likely in the mid-4s so that is out of spec. Do you guys go ahead and test anyways or do you use the sodium acetate the instructions call for, or something else?

 

[mabrungard]

I had noted that limitation a few weeks ago. I wonder how factual those sulfite strip readings were in that acidic wort. I have to question conclusions on sulfite levels due to that.

 

[techbrau]

We adjust the pH of the sample to be above 6 before measuring the sulfite level. I usually use sodium carbonate.

 

[Magnus314]

Okay, time for a results update. There was a much longer version, but I cut out what wasn't vital, so if anyone has questions I'm happy to share.

My hot side "base" for 6 batches has been pre-boil and chill 14 gallons, add 100mg/L NaMeta and mash in, mash cap, no sparge BIAB with a slow raise of the bag.

I've been doing a double batch of each recipe, with the hot side the same and the cold side being 1/2 Fast Lager method and force carb, and the other half keg secondaried according to the pdf.

For ales I did half into purged kegs and half into carboys until cleared, then cold crash + keg and force carb.

All were too sulfury to the end (6 weeks lagering before tapping for the "cold ferment schedule" in the pdf), and both versions had the surprising "IT" taste I've never gotten before without the Low DO methods, but overwhelmed by the sulfur.

Every Ale I've tried has been a problem - too sulfury being the main problem with other problems (extended clearing times, etc) arising from what i think is simply that Ale yeasts are more susceptible to sulfur than Lager yeasts. Makes sense with Lager yeasts' relations to Bayanus, which is pretty sulfur tolerant. On top of that, no "it" flavor is present in the ales, for whatever reason.

I've had a couple brews where I thought something went wrong and I over-hotside-oxygenated- either in a sparge or some other way, and surprisingly those beers came out way better and not so sulfury, so I think my "Normal" process must be tight enough that I have to dial back the NaMeta or possibly drop it entirely, especially for ales.

I have two Lagers with a good amount of Vienna malt, a Blond Ale with 2-row base, and an American Lager still waiting in the cold, sufury and cloudy. Plus An ESB an IPA and an APA from Marris Otter base still conditioning and sulfury.

For the last 4 batches I used yeast/dextrose pre-boil method (based on a couple peoples' actual DO meter results reported elsewhere) and I'm loving it. Much easier, plus it means one less pass for a copper chiller.

 

[techbrau]

It definitely does sound like you can reduce the dose! Keep in mind that 100 mg/l in a no sparge system is significantly more total sulfite than using 100 mg/l in a normal system, where we reccomended treating the mash water with 100 mg/l and the sparge water with 25 mg/l.

I'd suggest going down to about 40 mg/l in your case.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Okay, time for a results update. There was a much longer version, but I cut out what wasn't vital, so if anyone has questions I'm happy to share.

My hot side "base" for 6 batches has been pre-boil and chill 14 gallons, add 100mg/L NaMeta and mash in, mash cap, no sparge BIAB with a slow raise of the bag.

I've been doing a double batch of each recipe, with the hot side the same and the cold side being 1/2 Fast Lager method and force carb, and the other half keg secondaried according to the pdf.

For ales I did half into purged kegs and half into carboys until cleared, then cold crash + keg and force carb.

All were too sulfury to the end (6 weeks lagering before tapping for the "cold ferment schedule" in the pdf), and both versions had the surprising "IT" taste I've never gotten before without the Low DO methods, but overwhelmed by the sulfur.

Every Ale I've tried has been a problem - too sulfury being the main problem with other problems (extended clearing times, etc) arising from what i think is simply that Ale yeasts are more susceptible to sulfur than Lager yeasts. Makes sense with Lager yeasts' relations to Bayanus, which is pretty sulfur tolerant. On top of that, no "it" flavor is present in the ales, for whatever reason.

I've had a couple brews where I thought something went wrong and I over-hotside-oxygenated- either in a sparge or some other way, and surprisingly those beers came out way better and not so sulfury, so I think my "Normal" process must be tight enough that I have to dial back the NaMeta or possibly drop it entirely, especially for ales.

I have two Lagers with a good amount of Vienna malt, a Blond Ale with 2-row base, and an American Lager still waiting in the cold, sufury and cloudy. Plus An ESB an IPA and an APA from Marris Otter base still conditioning and sulfury.

For the last 4 batches I used yeast/dextrose pre-boil method (based on a couple peoples' actual DO meter results reported elsewhere) and I'm loving it. Much easier, plus it means one less pass for a copper chiller.

I've only did one "semi" LODO batch, so I don't know how relevant I am. But I did an IPA (White Labs Cal Yeast) and started with 50 mg/L of SMB. I also used the Yeast/Dextrose. I never had any indication of sulfur. It's carbonating right now, but one day after dry keg hopping, it was grassy and muddy. Hoping its settled tonight (6 days post dry hop)

BTW, did you squeeze the bag at all? If not, did you do it before LODO methods? What kind of efficiency are you getting?

 

[jddevinn]

I'm gettin sulfur bombs too and have had to dial back the SMB a bunch.

I'm pushing out a bunch of beer for events in the next few months and have stopped "experimenting" as much for the time being.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Interesting observations on your ale results thanks for posting.

Ive been doing the yeast/dextrose method and running full vol mashes using about 40 mg/l and am finally getting to try some more of the beers. Not getting any sulfur bombs and the beers all turned out very well. I feel like I'm noticing some improvements in malt character though its nothing I'd consider night and day. However its enough that I'm interested in experimenting some more. Now that Ive had a little practice and my pipeline is opening up I can set up some side by sides.

 

[Magnus314]

Keep in mind that 100 mg/l in a no sparge system is significantly more total sulfite than using 100 mg/l in a normal system, where we reccomended treating the mash water with 100 mg/l and the sparge water with 25 mg/l.

Makes sense! Last two batches I used 3gms in 15 gallons (around 50mg/L i think) and zero, respectively, so I should have a good test on my hands. I'll lower it more or not as necessary.

I've been getting 84% efficiency, draining thoroughly without any splashing and no squeezing.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Makes sense! Last two batches I used 3gms in 15 gallons (around 50mg/L i think) and zero, respectively, so I should have a good test on my hands. I'll lower it more or not as necessary.

I've been getting 84% efficiency, draining thoroughly without any splashing and no squeezing.

Wow, ive been getting 78% by squeezing the hell out of it. Is your crush like flour?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

What are peoples "sulfur bombs" coming out like? Match sticks? Rotten eggs? Something else?

 

[jddevinn]

Note that the sulfur taste (at least for me) is when adapting this method for ales with ale yeast and no lagering, lager yeast should do a better job with sulfur.

 

[techbrau]

I think there has been a lot of confusion over the dosage, because we didn't do a great job of explaining it clearly in the PDF.

The 100 mg/l recommended in the PDF was for mash water only, and sparge water is treated with 10-25 mg/l. Let's say you mash with half your water and sparge with the other half, and use 10 mg/l in the sparge water - that averages out to 55 mg/l total. Therefore, if you use a no-sparge mash and add 100 mg/l to your mash water, you're using almost twice the total sulfite that the PDF calls for. Compound that with the fact that no-sparge systems will likely have a lower oxygen pickup than traditional systems (resulting in less oxidation of sulfite to sulfate) and the lesser ability of ale yeasts to metabolize sulfite and sulfur dioxide when compared to lager yeasts, and you will probably have some issues.

For brewing all LoDO beers, but especially ales, I would highly recommend focusing on tightening up your system as much as possible - floating mash cap, zero leaks in pump lines, minimal transfer of wort between vessels, etc. - so that you can get away with as low of a SMB dose as possible. For a relatively tight no-sparge system, 40 mg/l SMB added to the mash water should be adequate protection and should not result in any off-flavors in the finished beer.

Every system is different, and that makes establishing one-size-fits-all practices for brewing low oxygen beer very difficult. Some systems will have significantly more or less oxygen pickup than others, so the big challenge with LoDO brewing is to learn your own system. I recommend doing a "wet run" through your brewing process using plain water, and measuring the total oxygen uptake throughout your entire process by either using a dissolved oxygen meter or sulfite concentration test strips. You can dose the water with a fixed amount of sulfite, and then measure by how much the concentration decreases throughout your brewing process. This will give you a rough idea of how much your specific system requires. I'd shoot for having about 10-15 ppm left over post-boil.

 

[TexasWine]

I think there has been a lot of confusion over the dosage, because we didn't do a great job of explaining it clearly in the PDF.

The 100 mg/l recommended in the PDF was for mash water only, and sparge water is treated with 10-25 mg/l. Let's say you mash with half your water and sparge with the other half, and use 10 mg/l in the sparge water - that averages out to 55 mg/l total. Therefore, if you use a no-sparge mash and add 100 mg/l to your mash water, you're using almost twice the total sulfite that the PDF calls for. Compound that with the fact that no-sparge systems will likely have a lower oxygen pickup than traditional systems (resulting in less oxidation of sulfite to sulfate) and the lesser ability of ale yeasts to metabolize sulfite and sulfur dioxide when compared to lager yeasts, and you will probably have some issues.

For brewing all LoDO beers, but especially ales, I would highly recommend focusing on tightening up your system as much as possible - floating mash cap, zero leaks in pump lines, minimal transfer of wort between vessels, etc. - so that you can get away with as low of a SMB dose as possible. For a relatively tight no-sparge system, 40 mg/l SMB added to the mash water should be adequate protection and should not result in any off-flavors in the finished beer.

Every system is different, and that makes establishing one-size-fits-all practices for brewing low oxygen beer very difficult. Some systems will have significantly more or less oxygen pickup than others, so the big challenge with LoDO brewing is to learn your own system. I recommend doing a "wet run" through your brewing process using plain water, and measuring the total oxygen uptake throughout your entire process by either using a dissolved oxygen meter or sulfite concentration test strips. You can dose the water with a fixed amount of sulfite, and then measure by how much the concentration decreases throughout your brewing process. This will give you a rough idea of how much your specific system requires. I'd shoot for having about 10-15 ppm left over post-boil.

This explains a lot. I do no sparge BIAB and I have been using 100 mg/L and my beers were all suffering from the sulfur issue. I just kegged a cream ale today that might be undrinkable.

Next brew I'm cutting back to 50 mg/L.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Good info but not really answering what I'm asking here though. What sort of character is the sulfur coming through as? I'm asking because I have a bitter in the fermentor and the fermentation has a smell to it I'm unfamiliar with but its not the stinky eggs or match smells I know as sulfur. Mash was a no sparge with 40mg/l added. Everything went smooth. Process wise this batch was done much tighter than others. That's why I'm wondering if what I'm picking up is sulfur and that I need to dial it back.

Edit - after looking around I found more sensory descriptions people gave for sulfur and I'm pretty convinced thats what I'm smelling. Its hard to describe but chemical-like, though not phenolic, is the closest way to put it. I think its time to dial back.

 

[stpug]

I think there has been a lot of confusion over the dosage, because we didn't do a great job of explaining it clearly in the PDF.

The 100 mg/l recommended in the PDF was for mash water only, and sparge water is treated with 10-25 mg/l. Let's say you mash with half your water and sparge with the other half, and use 10 mg/l in the sparge water - that averages out to 55 mg/l total. Therefore, if you use a no-sparge mash and add 100 mg/l to your mash water, you're using almost twice the total sulfite that the PDF calls for. Compound that with the fact that no-sparge systems will likely have a lower oxygen pickup than traditional systems (resulting in less oxidation of sulfite to sulfate) and the lesser ability of ale yeasts to metabolize sulfite and sulfur dioxide when compared to lager yeasts, and you will probably have some issues.

For brewing all LoDO beers, but especially ales, I would highly recommend focusing on tightening up your system as much as possible - floating mash cap, zero leaks in pump lines, minimal transfer of wort between vessels, etc. - so that you can get away with as low of a SMB dose as possible. For a relatively tight no-sparge system, 40 mg/l SMB added to the mash water should be adequate protection and should not result in any off-flavors in the finished beer.

Every system is different, and that makes establishing one-size-fits-all practices for brewing low oxygen beer very difficult. Some systems will have significantly more or less oxygen pickup than others, so the big challenge with LoDO brewing is to learn your own system. I recommend doing a "wet run" through your brewing process using plain water, and measuring the total oxygen uptake throughout your entire process by either using a dissolved oxygen meter or sulfite concentration test strips. You can dose the water with a fixed amount of sulfite, and then measure by how much the concentration decreases throughout your brewing process. This will give you a rough idea of how much your specific system requires. I'd shoot for having about 10-15 ppm left over post-boil.

This explains a lot. I do no sparge BIAB and I have been using 100 mg/L and my beers were all suffering from the sulfur issue. I just kegged a cream ale today that might be undrinkable.

Next brew I'm cutting back to 50 mg/L.

I've done a couple no sparge, biab, low O2 ales at 50 mg/l NaMeta rates and the sulfur residual is still overwhelming. This has been using saison 3724 and british 1318. The saison, which has been "lagering" for 8 weeks now, is still just terrible; I will be dumping it for certain. I think aiming for an upper max of 40 mg/l is probably a safe place to begin, ale-wise - adjust future ales up or down based on your experience. At least, that has been my experience so far.

A couple lagers (using 2035) came out sulfury as well, but the yeast has been able to clean them up given time. These were both in the 50-55 mg/l range. Even my lagers I intend on going down to an upper limit of 40 mg/l.

 

[stpug]

Good info but not really answering what I'm asking here though. What sort of character is the sulfur coming through as? I'm asking because I have a bitter in the fermentor and the fermentation has a smell to it I'm unfamiliar with but its not the stinky eggs or match smells I know as sulfur. Mash was a no sparge with 40mg/l added. Everything went smooth. Process wise this batch was done much tighter than others. That's why I'm wondering if what I'm picking up is sulfur and that I need to dial it back.

Edit - after looking around I found more sensory descriptions people gave for sulfur and I'm pretty convinced thats what I'm smelling. Its hard to describe but chemical-like, though not phenolic, is the closest way to put it. I think its time to dial back.

It's the kind of sulfur notes you get from the ocean (technically, DMS) but no corn (or vegetable) can be identified in the "off" aroma. Wharf net, low tide, salt marsh. At least, this is the kind of sulfur I have experienced in my low O2 ales.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Hmmm thats not what Im getting either. I pulled a sample for a taste test and it smells and tastes completely fine in a glass so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[TexasWine]

Good info but not really answering what I'm asking here though. What sort of character is the sulfur coming through as? I'm asking because I have a bitter in the fermentor and the fermentation has a smell to it I'm unfamiliar with but its not the stinky eggs or match smells I know as sulfur. Mash was a no sparge with 40mg/l added. Everything went smooth. Process wise this batch was done much tighter than others. That's why I'm wondering if what I'm picking up is sulfur and that I need to dial it back.

Edit - after looking around I found more sensory descriptions people gave for sulfur and I'm pretty convinced thats what I'm smelling. Its hard to describe but chemical-like, though not phenolic, is the closest way to put it. I think its time to dial back.

Closest thing I can describe mine as is eggs. I'm not good at descriptors though. Some sensory training is in my future.