Interesting German Brewing PDF

[TexasWine]

Improve batch yield
-Fill fermentation kegs 1/2" past top weld. So far with 2-3 psi of primary fermentation pressure kraussen hasn't exceeded 1cm.

Wait, so you plan to fill your 5 gallon corny kegs to 1/2" past the top weld! Wow!

I've never done primary fermentation in a keg under pressure, but that's the plan. And if I can ferment essentially 5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg doing so, that's good news.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Process Simplification
-Skip water purging of receiving kegs. Instead only do a single purge with tank CO2, then allow to be purged with fermentation gasses.

Secondary fermentation
-Hopefully be home to catch FG +6 points, if not then do priming sugar again.

this is my current approach for maintaining hop character. it seems to work well. I'd like to somehow combine this with natural carbonation

 

[schematix]

Wait, so you plan to fill your 5 gallon corny kegs to 1/2" past the top weld! Wow!

I've never done primary fermentation in a keg under pressure, but that's the plan. And if I can ferment essentially 5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg doing so, that's good news.

2 times in a row i had 1cm kraussen, and that was with 2 different lager strains. Since i have shortened gas dip tubes, i figure i have about 2" above the top weld before i hit either the PRV or liquid dip tube so this should put me closer, but still give me some wiggle room.

I think this will only work with lagers, and only under pressure. Don't go too high on the pressure though. 3 psi is already equivalent to almost 7' of water column. A little pressure does wonders to collapse weak bubbles though (just need to overcome the surface tension).

P.S. forgive me for mixing metric and imperial units in the same post.

 

[specharka]

I haven't read this whole thread, but admittedly I am quite curious.

There are certain elements to this dissertation that I take fundamental exception to (the idea of Germans dosing their water with SMB is frankly laughable). But the unmistakable craftsmanship of German beer is without peer -- I tried an Andechser Vollbier once and it was better than any lager I've had prior to or since. So you could say I'm not going to deny a technique I've never implemented.

I think an especially useful application is the American IPA, where massive dry hop additions get withered away by inevitable oxidation. Which is why so many hop-forward breweries have switched to canning lines for shelf life preservation. I can see the appeal.

On a homebrewing level, there's many techniques I would be willing to try or adopt. Such as:
Under letting the mash
Mashing immediately after milling the grains
Bubbling CO2 periodically through the mash
Sparging with an auto sparge through a closed system
Using a closed system for cold side fermentation
Carbonating beer via a keg and spunding valve

I'm unwilling to adopt a system that requires me to pre-boil water or use SMB. It's just a waste of energy and I've got an exceptional intolerance to sulfites -- white wine gives me terrible headaches. But if there's any practical homebrewing methods of de-aerating water without massive wastes of water and electricity, I'd be willing to try it.

 

[pinto]

it would be laughable if the authors of the PDF said German brewers were adding SMB But, they didn't. they were pretty clear that SMB was a homebrew solution. As far as preboiling, the GBF guys have posted about usiing yeast/dextrose in the mash water to scavenge O2. that is the method that I've chosen to do since it is simple and seems effective

 

[techbrau]

Degassing (via preboiling or yeast scavenging) and SMB are the cornerstones of LODO. It will not work on the hot side without both of those.

On the cold side, you can still increase the shelf life of hoppy beers by following our practices there. But at the homebrew scale, you will not get the delicate, low oxygen malt flavor that beers like Andechs Vollbier Helles have without using SMB.

We did several experiments in October 2015 using only preboiled water but no SMB. The final results were no different taste-wise than the same beer made with non-preboiled water. At this point several of us bought our dissolved oxygen meters and confirmed that the preboiling was not effective because we measured significant oxygen pickup at dough in, as well as diffusion over time. As soon as we added the SMB to the preboiled water is when we finally achieved the delicate malt flavor.

Andechs (and all of the other large scale German breweries) have specialized equipment which minimizes the exposure of the wort to atmospheric oxygen. They also take advantage of physics via the square cube law, meaning that the surface area to volume ratios of commercial sized mashes are far, far, far smaller than homebrew mashes. This is fundamentally why we need SMB.

 

[Yeastieboy]

For BIAB brewers; how could we mimic underletting?

I utilize a bag within a stainless basket in my kettle. Typically, I just pour my grain into the bag/basket, with it already residing in the filled kettle.

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Add the grain sack first then rack water in using a siphon. This is what I've been doing with the Braumeister. Treat the water in coolers overnight then rack to kettle when it's time to mash in. I'm going to put ball valves on the coolers to make it even easier.

 

[TexasWine]

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct?

If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing. Pre low DO days I would lower the bag quickly and stir thoroughly. Now I lower slowly and stir gently.

I think I need to slow down the lowering even more because last time I noticed quite a few trapped bubbles escaping even after the grain was completely submerged. With a ratcheting pulley it's not hard to do. But I do get impatient.

 

[Jwin]

Perhaps adding the grain as you lower would be beneficial, but keep the grain level above the water.lower, stir gently, add grain, repeat.

 

[TexasWine]

Just doing some lunchtime reading at work and came across the book Brewing Science and Practice in our online library. Skimmed it a bit, looking for the word "oxygen". Below are a couple of excerpts.

Section 6.2 Mashing In
To minimize oxidative changes in the mash or wort, the mash may be gently pumped into the vessel at the side or up through the base, so minimizing turbulence and the uptake of oxygen. Degassing the mashing liquor, flushing the grist with an inert gas such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide and filling the base of the vessel with an inert gas to displace air and so limit oxygen pick-up may also be used(Yamaguchi et al., 1997).

Section 6.4.2 Temperature-programmed infusion mashing
It is not surprising that brewing practices in mainland Europeand the UK are converging on the use of infusion mash mixing vessels and lauter tuns or mash filters. In addition there has been a convergence in vessel designs, incorporatingrefinements that confer increased heating efficiency, ease of use, reduction in shear bystirring, flexibility, and reductions in oxygen uptake.

 

[stpug]

For BIAB brewers; how could we mimic underletting?

I utilize a bag within a stainless basket in my kettle. Typically, I just pour my grain into the bag/basket, with it already residing in the filled kettle.

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct?

If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing. Pre low DO days I would lower the bag quickly and stir thoroughly. Now I lower slowly and stir gently.

I think I need to slow down the lowering even more because last time I noticed quite a few trapped bubbles escaping even after the grain was completely submerged. With a ratcheting pulley it's not hard to do. But I do get impatient.

I agree with ^TexasWine and have been doing the same when brewing no sparge BIAB batches. A slow lowering of the grain into the water is pretty fncking close to an underlet (which I do when using multiple vessels) - close enough in my book

Another option might be milling directly into your strike water (with bag already in there, of course) - the downside might be the initial temp shock to the first part of the grain hitting the superheated strike water. To minimize this potential you could mill into mash temp strike water and slowly heat back up to mash temp once you've finished milling all grain. This method would eliminate doughball issues at the cost of grain dust, which is deal-breaker for me since I brew indoors.

 

[Bilsch]

Just doing some lunchtime reading at work and came across the book Brewing Science and Practice in our online library. Skimmed it a bit, looking for the word "oxygen". Below are a couple of excerpts.

George Fix, in his 1999 book, had a paragraph on HSA oxidizing phenols and creating herbstoffe or grain astringency. He noted that these off flavor defects are often misdiagnosed and not associated with oxidation.

But of course after reading this, so many years ago, I promptly ignored it because as we all knew.. HSA is a myth.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm unwilling to adopt a system that requires me to pre-boil water or use SMB. It's just a waste of energy and I've got an exceptional intolerance to sulfites -- white wine gives me terrible headaches.

SMB is not thermally stable and when an aqueous solution of metabisulfite or sulfite is boiled, it breaks down. If I recall correctly, the primary biproduct is the sulfur dioxide which goes off as gas. You really don't need to worry about SMB when its added pre-boil. Sulfite survives in wine because it is never boiled.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

SMB is not thermally stable and when an aqueous solution of metabisulfite or sulfite is boiled, it breaks down. If I recall correctly, the primary biproduct is the sulfur dioxide which goes off as gas. You really don't need to worry about SMB when its added pre-boil. Sulfite survives in wine because it is never boiled.

I'm curious, how is it that people are getting sulfur bombs if the SMB is being broken down in the boil? Hoping you can shed light on this you always have great info.

 

[techbrau]

It is not being completely broken down, which we have verified with sulfite test strips. I think this is actually a good thing as it offers additional protection against oxidation at the air/wort interface during the boil.

The trick is tuning your dose and system such that you end up with a reasonable amount of sulfite post boil, and have enough in the wort during the mash/lauter/boil to protect you.

Anecdotally, I and others have noticed no sulfur bomb problems when the post boil sulfite concentration is under 25 ppm. Also anecdotally, it seems that you need at least ~40 mg/l SMB in a typical no sparge system to have adequate protection. Some people have noted that the wort has a better malt flavor at 60 rather than 40, but of course it will be system dependent.

 

[jddevinn]

I'm curious, how is it that people are getting sulfur bombs if the SMB is being broken down in the boil? Hoping you can shed light on this you always have great info.

The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out

Im up to date on that part...

It is not being completely broken down

this is what I was trying to find out more about

 

[Yeastieboy]

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct? If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing.

Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...

 

[TheHairyHop]

Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...

I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method

 

[Edelst0ff]

For what it's worth... I dough-in letting the agitator run gently. Bit by bit the grain is scooped in there. Avoids clumps as well.

If no SMB would be present, I'd probably consider a machine/setup similar to the MechaMasher

 

[stpug]

The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out

I would not say "easily". Lagering ales doesn't seem to have much effect on excess sulfur due to too much NaMeta. Gassing co2 through is 1) anti-productive, 2) wasteful and costs $, and 3) is not completely effective.

I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method

The dextrose/yeast method requires both dextrose and yeast, and significant added time. The boiling method just requires extra time, and not nearly as much time as the dex/yeast method. That may be one reason.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...

I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling? I started doing it to lower O2 ingress but in all honesty its 1000x easier and LODO in mind or not its a permanent change in my process personally. The way I see it is why add grain bit by bit when you can just start a siphon and sit there


On a separate note.... is anyone that is having problems with dough balls tried a short step mash or even mashing in at glucanase rest temps and ramping up to help loosen up the mash?

 

[TexasWine]

The dextrose/yeast method requires both dextrose and yeast, and significant added time. The boiling method just requires extra time, and not nearly as much time as the dex/yeast method. That may be one reason.

You can do the oxygen scavenging method in as little as 45 minutes, or overnight. Every time I did the boiling method it took longer than 45 minutes and was a bigger hassle then adding some bread yeast and corn sugar. And the timing flexibility offered by the yeast method makes it better for my situation.

 

[TexasWine]

I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling? I started doing it to lower O2 ingress but in all honesty its 1000x easier and LODO in mind or not its a permanent change in my process personally. The way I see it is why add grain bit by bit when you can just start a siphon and sit there

Single vessel brewing means you don't have a separate vessel to heat the water in to underlet.

Also, specifically regarding my set up, I want to heat the water in the vessel I'm mashing in because I like to purge the air out of my pump and plate exchanger during the deoxygenation step. If I waited to start the pump after doughing in I would increase oxygen uptake.

Now one thing I don't know is this. Am I introducing more oxygen by my dough in method than underletting? If so, is the increase offset by purging my pump and exchanger during the deoxygenation step?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Single vessel brewing means you don't have a separate vessel to heat the water in to underlet.

Also, specifically regarding my set up, I want to heat the water in the vessel I'm mashing in because I like to purge the air out of my pump and plate exchanger during the deoxygenation step. If I waited to start the pump after doughing in I would increase oxygen uptake.

Now one thing I don't know is this. Am I introducing more oxygen by my dough in method than underletting? If so, is the increase offset by purging my pump and exchanger during the deoxygenation step?

I guess it depends what temp your looking to mash in at. I mash in around 90f, make ph adjustments, then ramp up. Since I'm treating the brewing water in a cooler I guess it's technically not single vessel but it's not like I'm having to heat another kettle either I'm working on a Braumeister. Obviously if your looking to mash in at hotter temps then it's an issue but doughing in lower lends some other options.
As for the pump...this is purely anecdotal but when I switched from treating the water in the BM then mashing in to bottom filling the following batch was a sulfur bomb. The next batches used about half the SMB and are much better. I'm having to prime my pump after dough in too but being able to cut the SMB in half makes me believe it's allowing less ingress.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method

I guess you'd have to compare it to what the German fellas are proposing. However, I'm not familiar with the dextrose/yeast method and will have to read up...

I feel like I'm missing something so I have to ask.... is there a reason why you want to lower the grain into the kettle instead of putting the grain in first and bottom filling?

Single vessel brewing.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I guess you'd have to compare it to what the German fellas are proposing. However, I'm not familiar with the dextrose/yeast method and will have to read up...




Single vessel brewing.

Unless using a cooler as a pseudo HLT is out of the question everything else works for single vessel brewing. The system I brew on is basically a fancy electric BIAB system. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with this I'm just throwing out a process tweak I found to be easy and more effective. If you have a cooler laying around like a lot of people do give it a shot.

 

[Yeastieboy]

You can do the oxygen scavenging method in as little as 45 minutes, or overnight. Every time I did the boiling method it took longer than 45 minutes and was a bigger hassle then adding some bread yeast and corn sugar. And the timing flexibility offered by the yeast method makes it better for my situation.

Can you tell me how the oxygen scavenging method would work for my 7.89 gallons of water that I plan to brew with this Friday? Maybe I will try that.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Unless using a cooler as a pseudo HLT is out of the question everything else works for single vessel brewing. The system I brew on is basically a fancy electric BIAB system. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with this I'm just throwing out a process tweak I found to be easy and more effective. If you have a cooler laying around like a lot of people do give it a shot.

I understand what you're saying... I think. I have a BoilCoil in my kettle so I'd have to heat strike water, dump to another vessel and then underlet back into my kettle.