English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Just a quesstion, I have the above mentioned mixed strain starter going now, and in the future I plan on making 2 individual starter worts, collect the yeast, put it in 1dl test vials with glycerol/water solution and keep in the freezer.
Then add one of each to an appropriate size mixed strain starter a few days before brewing, but does co-cultivating 2 yeasts once before pitching suffice to make one of them dominant, or would that require a few generations?

 

[storunner13]

Was it like Belgian ale levels of estery or more subtle than that? And have you had any actual English ales or mostly ales brewed to an Americanised understanding of what British ales are?
In the first case it may be as you said that it has been reused a bit too much, in the latter it might just be that it does what an English yeast is supposed to do.
I find I get the best result just letting the fermentation go on it's own a bit, pitch at room temp, put in the ferm chamber to quickly get it to 18c and hold there for ~24h then let it free rise to 20 and keep it there until kegging at day 10 usually.

It was definitely at Belgian levels. So likely a combination of one generation too far and additional glucose.

Glucose can increase esters. There is a mash called I think the Hermann mash specifically for wheat beers to increase the proportion of glucose in the wort to increase esters while keeping it RHG compliant. I suspect some yeasts will be affected more than others. As invert has glucose this is affecting it. So either change yeast, or you could try adding it at say 24 hours by which time the yeast should have done most of its ester production.

Yeah, glucose definitely changes the yeast profile. I did a Hermann mash schedule back in 2016....not sure it made a big impact (though the beer was good). The next time I make a hefe, I will just add some dextrose instead of going through the effort!

Do either of you have a favorite yeast/ferm profile? I think I just need some additional confidence that I'll make a good bitter this time...it's been a while.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

For my English ales, Browns, Bitters, Porter/stout etc I use a 50/50 mix of Verdant/Liberty Bell, trying to pitch at a ratio of ~0.8-1.
Keep the beer at 18c for the first ~24h and then free rise to 20c until packaging after 10 days for normal strenght ales.
For more neutral British ales I use a mix of a domestic (suspected) Windsor related strain and MJ m42, same regimen.
I have learned from here and by doing my own trials that British yeast perform best when you pitch a good sized amount and don't try to control it too much.

 

[Miraculix]

For my English ales, Browns, Bitters, Porter/stout etc I use a 50/50 mix of Verdant/Liberty Bell, trying to pitch at a ratio of ~0.8-1.
Keep the beer at 18c for the first ~24h and then free rise to 20c until packaging after 10 days for normal strenght ales.
For more neutral British ales I use a mix of a domestic (suspected) Windsor related strain and MJ m42, same regimen.
I have learned from here and by doing my own trials that British yeast perform best when you pitch a good sized amount and don't try to control it too much.

I second that, I just wanted to add that I ruined one batch with 002 which I let free rise. It created fusels and the hangover of death. Now I am too paranoid to use any British yeast without temp control and put my fermenter into the bath tub filled with cold water which then, over a few days, warms up to room temperature. Starting around 16-18 c. After about three days the fermenter gets removed from there and is placed at room temperature as the fermentation is mainly done anyway.

I cannot brew without this anymore, I get paranoid of I try .

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have a fridge as fermentation chamber, so I set the thermostat controller to 18c and then raise the limit for when it starts to cool to 20.3c after 24 hrs, but I don't influence in the time it takes the ferment to get to that temp.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Do not do this.

Heritage is acrid and bitter and needs a long time to age out. Chevallier on it's own is so nice, well rounded and flavourful that our certainly does not need any crystal additions. It provides the caramelly crystal flavour on its own.

Beers that should age 6+ months are the right place for heritage, of you ask me. Ruined a few bitters with it myself...

I've not used Heritage but I have used Chevallier and I agree, it made a beer that you would think had crystal in it, all by itself.

 

[storunner13]

For my English ales, Browns, Bitters, Porter/stout etc I use a 50/50 mix of Verdant/Liberty Bell, trying to pitch at a ratio of ~0.8-1.
Keep the beer at 18c for the first ~24h and then free rise to 20c until packaging after 10 days for normal strenght ales.
For more neutral British ales I use a mix of a domestic (suspected) Windsor related strain and MJ m42, same regimen.
I have learned from here and by doing my own trials that British yeast perform best when you pitch a good sized amount and don't try to control it too much.

Thanks for the details. I actually have both Verdant and Liberty Bell, so I will try that. I'm definitely thinking too hard on this.

You're targeting 0.8-1.0 M cells/ml/P correct? Is that 2 packs of yeast into a 1.040 beer? I usually target .5M cells/ml/P when using dry yeast for standard beers, .75M for beers over 1.060 or so.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the details. I actually have both Verdant and Liberty Bell, so I will try that. I'm definitely thinking too hard on this.

You're targeting 0.8-1.0 M cells/ml/P correct? Is that 2 packs of yeast into a 1.040 beer? I usually target .5M cells/ml/P when using dry yeast for standard beers, .75M for beers over 1.060 or so.

Do you like verdant on it's own? If you haven't tried it, you might be better off with liberty bell on it's own as verdant can be quite intense, also in a blend.

For me it grew into a love/hate relationship. I cannot really stand it in a bitter any more, much too fruity for me, but that's obviously my personal taste, yours might differ.

 

[storunner13]

Do you like verdant on it's own? If you haven't tried it, you might be better off with liberty bell on it's own as verdant can be quite intense, also in a blend.

For me it grew into a love/hate relationship. I cannot really stand it in a bitter any more, much too fruity for me, but that's obviously my personal taste, yours might differ.

I've used Verdant in small pale beers (Teeble Beer, and a 4.5% ABV Lavender smoked beer), as well as hazy pale ale/IPA. I really enjoyed the flavor in the Teeble Beer, and I like the performance in the ferment. Doesn't clear very well IME.

I've only used it in all malt beers though. And maybe don't have enough experience to be sure that I (really) like it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Thanks for the details. I actually have both Verdant and Liberty Bell, so I will try that. I'm definitely thinking too hard on this.

You're targeting 0.8-1.0 M cells/ml/P correct? Is that 2 packs of yeast into a 1.040 beer? I usually target .5M cells/ml/P when using dry yeast for standard beers, .75M for beers over 1.060 or so.

Correct, for most my 20L batches I simply chuck in a pack each of Verdant and M36 since most of them are at 1.040-45 with the occasional 1.055 porter, for my coming stout at 65 I have made a small starter to get the cell count up a bit.
Imo targeting around 1M cells/ml/P is a lot more sound approach than the old "one pack for ~20-25L is good enough" one, considering most commercial breweries are using the double if not more pitching wise.
I have noticed my ferments start quicker, are done quicker and are more vigorous and generally more"healthy" than when just using one pack.

 

[Miraculix]

I've used Verdant in small pale beers (Teeble Beer, and a 4.5% ABV Lavender smoked beer), as well as hazy pale ale/IPA. I really enjoyed the flavor in the Teeble Beer, and I like the performance in the ferment. Doesn't clear very well IME.

I've only used it in all malt beers though. And maybe don't have enough experience to be sure that I (really) like it.

Na, that's fine then, just wanted to make sure that you know what to expect from this yeast. My favourite is co pitching it with Nottingham, but never tried it with liberty bell. I have a liverty bell bitter going atm just to get to know it. Btw. Verdant cleared quite well for me so far. Not exceptional, but good enough.

Correct, for most my 20L batches I simply chuck in a pack each of Verdant and M36 since most of them are at 1.040-45 with the occasional 1.055 porter, for my coming stout at 65 I have made a small starter to get the cell count up a bit.
Imo targeting around 1M cells/ml/P is a lot more sound approach than the old "one pack for ~20-25L is good enough" one, considering most commercial breweries are using the double if not more pitching wise.
I have noticed my ferments start quicker, are done quicker and are more vigorous and generally more"healthy" than when just using one pack.

I Second that again, was my experience as well. I usually pitch two packs into a 16-18 l batch, that works pretty well for me.

 

[storunner13]

Thank you both . Beer is getting brewed at the end of the month (if my schedule holds up...!). I'll get a follow up on recipe, process, and results when it's ready.

 

[balrog]

My favourite is co pitching it [Verdant] with Nottingham

Per the other thread, I've only done this once, so with a packet of each, but here's a question for you -- should/can I save the end-ferment slurry and pitch again or does the ratio Verdant/Notty become something else at that point?

 

[Miraculix]

Per the other thread, I've only done this once, so with a packet of each, but here's a question for you -- should/can I save the end-ferment slurry and pitch again or does the ratio Verdant/Notty become something else at that point?

I'd say that at least for one generation it should be pretty much the same. But how the drift goes with further generatons down the line, I cannot predict.

 

[DuncB]

Have to get quite technical to work the evolution out, microscope, slides and different plates and some colony counting.

 

[Hanglow]

Do either of you have a favorite yeast/ferm profile? I think I just need some additional confidence that I'll make a good bitter this time...it's been a while.

I don't think I've used that amount of invert in a bitter, I have in stronger ales say around 7%abv. I like Nottingham for those as there is enough malt, sugar and hop character to not be too bothered about the relative blandness of notty. It is very quick and drops clear extremely fast too. I would normall pitch it about 16c or 17c then hold it about 18c.

But for a smaller beer like a bitter I like a more characterful yeast, wy1469 is great imo. Pitch at 17c then hold it about 20c

 

[UdonPete]

I've never had 007 do anything weird with inverts in the maybe half a dozen brews using it alongside treacle, golden syrup or both. It's still my go to for British beers above 7% which usually have between 5% and 15% sugar in them. How hot did you ferment? I can only really get esters out of 007 if I push it a bit beyond the manufacturer specs and even then I only get a bit of fruitiness.

If you're aiming for ~80% attenuation I can't recommend anything else really, but I've had very good experiences with an S-04/Lallemand London copitch.

I've got a British IPA that's 90% Chev fermenting with a Nottingham/Verdant copitch right now. Interested to see how that fares.

When you say "Nottingham/Verdant copitch" may I ask what ratio e.g. a pkt of each ?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

That seems to be the most common approach among those of us here who have been doing some co-pitch trials

 

[Miraculix]

I tried 1/0.5 verdant/Nottingham and 1/1. I preferred the 1/1, maybe I would even prefer 0.5/1 overall. Verdant is a bit too intense for me.

 

[HM-2]

When you say "Nottingham/Verdant copitch" may I ask what ratio e.g. a pkt of each ?

Yeah, 1 pack of each so 50/50. That's my usual approach with copitches purely because it's super easy and I'm generally pitching into 1.060+ wort so I need two packets anyway.

 

[balrog]

When you say "Nottingham/Verdant copitch" may I ask what ratio e.g. a pkt of each ?

I tried 1/0.5 verdant/Nottingham and 1/1. I preferred the 1/1, maybe I would even prefer 0.5/1 overall. Verdant is a bit too intense for me.

My first attempt with this recipe I used 1 packet each in 5.5 gallon 1.042
The Verdant marmalade-iness while "there" is not overpowering, but we're talking about a taste thing and everyone is different. My second attempt will be 1/2 packet each. I will say that it does not drop super clear super fast. This is 31 days after kegging/carbing at cellar temps (60-65F), then in keezer (40F) about two weeks. It is certainly clear enough for me.

 

[Miraculix]

My first attempt with this recipe I used 1 packet each in 5.5 gallon 1.042
The Verdant marmalade-iness while "there" is not overpowering, but we're talking about a taste thing and everyone is different. My second attempt will be 1/2 packet each. I will say that it does not drop super clear super fast. This is 31 days after kegging/carbing at cellar temps (60-65F), then in keezer (40F) about two weeks. It is certainly clear enough for me.
View attachment 785323

I know this recipe!!!

 

[kmarkstevens]

But for a smaller beer like a bitter I like a more characterful yeast, wy1469 is great imo. Pitch at 17c then hold it about 20c

1469 West yorkshire is a great yeast for smaller beers. White Labs equivalent is vault strain Essex. I am going to try co-pitching both of these.

I found S-04 and WLP017 combo to be superior to either pitched individually. These are supposedly two different whitbread strains, so I just recombined them.

I have at least 10 English strains in my library. Gonna mix them all in a suicide "house" beast yeast blend. I did that a few years ago, but included both CBC and Windsor, which I don't really like, and they contributed came through at an annoying level in the final taste. Hmmm, maybe a project for this weekend.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Here is a white labs guide to blending yeast strains. I think that because they use the example of WLP002 and WLP007, that this "proves" the provenance of the WLP085 blend. I've asked a few White Lab folks over the years, and none will 'fess up to what comprises the WLP085 blend.

I actually got the WLP085 on a visit to White Labs San Diego about 5 years ago. I had been intrigued by it and the fact that it was unobtainable for a year or two before that. Anyyoo, the bartender went in the back and found me a vial even though it was a vault strain. I used WLP085 probably more than it deserved only because I got it in person.

Lesson learned - conduct yeast offs in the style the yeast will be used in. Furthermore, just because a yeast shines in an ordinary bitter, does not mean it will shine in a porter or a big beer. While I liked WLP085 quite a lot in an ordinary bitter and in yeast offs. I did a yeast off in a recipe with chocolate malt, and found the WLP085 stripped out the chocolate flavor.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Got the brew on for my historically inspired stout, gonna start boiling as soon as the kids are asleep.
Dissolved some malt extract in some of the wort to add back in as soon as boil starts to build up, since I fell a little short on the pre boil SG, likely because I forgot to turn down the efficiency a bit while designing the recipe, and because of using 50% of the base as Vienna for a mild malt substitute.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For those interested - I'm not sure how long this has been going on, but not surprisingly (given the disaster that was selling via the new Hop & Grape/Jolly Brewer) Brewlab are once again "officially" offering their slopes direct, at £6 (US$/€7) a pop plus a flat rate of £3 shipping in the UK. Roughly looks like the offering from 2014 or so, not all of which were available from Jolly Brewer :

https://brewlab.co.uk/product-category/home-brew-yeast-slopes/
Burton upon Trent (JB's "Burton Standard Bitter", looks like old Burton upon Trent "Marston" ?)
Devon (JB's "Standard Bitter - Fruity", looks like old 2100/Devon-1? ??Hanlons??)
East Midlands (JB's "Stouts/Milds", looks like old 2540/East Midlands-1, sometimes ascribed to Batemans of Lincolnshire)
Kent (presumably Shepherd Neame ?)
Lancashire (Thwaites??)
Scottish Borders (JB's "Brown Ales", ?Borders-1 "McEwan"??)
Sussex (presumably Harveys?)
Thames Valley 1 (JB's "Standard Bitter", old 1500. Variously linked to King & Barnes and Courage?? )
Thames Valley 2 (JB's "Strong Ale"? old 1508? I've seen "Hampshire brewery" suggested, implying Gale's?)
Thames Valley 3 (old 1000? linked to Fullers)
Tyneside
Yorkshire (Black Sheep??)

I would also note that 6 of the 12 are mentioned as having some phenolic character...

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Took a gravity sample on my stout, was at 1.018 from 1.061.
It has only been a week though and it's a higher gravity brew, gonna wait 3-4 days and check again, hopefully it has eaten up a few more points by then.

 

[HM-2]

Kegged up my British IPA this afternoon. Will give it a week or so in the cool workshop to condition because I'm out of space in the kegerator right now. The same I took tastes great, once the slight harshness from.the dry hop mellows out I can see this being a fantastic pint.

 

[DBhomebrew]

My 3rd gen top-cropped WLP-037 is now chewing on a brown ale. It's based on a Josh Weikert American Brown Ale I've brewed previously, this time leaning heavily toward an English impression and what was in the cupboard.

1.060 / 31 IBU
72% Best Pale Ale
6% Amber
6% C65
9% Chocolate Rye
7% Flaked Barley
13IBU Fuggle FWH
13IBU Cluster 60m
5IBU Fuggle 30m

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Sounds like a rather hefty brown ale...

 

[HM-2]

Sounds like a rather hefty brown ale...

It's a pretty similar grist to my last stout recipe!

 

[Miraculix]

It's a pretty similar grist to my last stout recipe!

Looks also pretty much like a stout to me .

I'm sure it will be beer!

 

[DBhomebrew]

American Brown Ale. Double Brown Ale. Stout Brown Ale. Stout.

I've brewed this before. The chocolate rye isn't nearly as roasty as the same amount of chocolate malt.

Don't worry, I'm under no impression that this is anything like an English recipe. It's just in my series of WLP-037 that I've been tracking here.

 

[Miraculix]

American Brown Ale. Double Brown Ale. Stout Brown Ale. Stout.

I've brewed this before. The chocolate rye isn't nearly as roasty as the same amount of chocolate malt.

Don't worry, I'm under no impression that this is anything like an English recipe. It's just in my series of WLP-037 that I've been tracking here.

I'm going to brew a beer with chocolate rye soon, @Protos good me into it in the kveik thread.

I've just opened the first bottle (way too early, still very green) of a bitter I brewed with about 5% crystal rye. Pretty promising already, now I'm finally able to taste the rye. Something different but it somehow fits. I'm looking forward to seeing how this one tastes when the different tastes came together through some aging.

 

[user 263363]

This is my best British beer I’ve brewed yet. It’s a dark mild with:

80% Maris Otter
7% Brown Malt
7% Pale Chocolate
7% Victory

13 IBUs of Challenger at 60 minutes
7 IBUs of EKG at 10 minutes

A09 Pub

Came out to be 3.5% and is so flavorful with good mouthfeel. It’s got a creaminess that I just absolutely love. None of the malts overpower. The pub yeast just gives it the perfect British -ness.

 

[hout17]

This is my best British beer I’ve brewed yet. It’s a dark mild with:

80% Maris Otter
7% Brown Malt
7% Pale Chocolate
7% Victory

13 IBUs of Challenger at 60 minutes
7 IBUs of EKG at 10 minutes

A09 Pub

Came out to be 3.5% and is so flavorful with good mouthfeel. It’s got a creaminess that I just absolutely love. None of the malts overpower. The pub yeast just gives it the perfect British -ness.

View attachment 791729

Looks great!

 

[user 263363]

Looks great!

Thanks! The beer was crystal clear going in to the keg, but 3 weeks in and it still has a major chill haze that won’t go away. If I could get past that, it would be even better visually.

 

[DuncB]

Let it come up to ale temperatures of 12 to 14 celsius, might do the trick!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Anybody got any feedback on a brew I plan for the weekend after next?
Intend to do a sort of Old Peculier inspired stronger, dark ale, not a clone but something along the same lines but with my own touch.
Will be kegged and then matured/conditioned for about 2 months before serving.
OG 1.055
FG 1.014-ish
IBU 37
Abv about 5.5 or thereabouts
GP as base, 4% Simpson light crystal, 3% DRC, 4% Simpson Chocolate malt, 8% invert 3 added late boil. 68c/60 min mash and fermented with Verdant/Liberty Bell, will make a small starter to reach a pitch rate of about 1m cells/ml/P.
Hops will be challenger as bittering, EKG 0.5g/ Lfor 20 min and 0.5g/L of Styrian Goldings/Bobek thrown in with the yeast.
Have not really decided yet if I should go with chocolate or black malt, kinda leaning towards switching chocolate to black, same amount.

 

[Miraculix]

Anybody got any feedback on a brew I plan for the weekend after next?
Intend to do a sort of Old Peculier inspired stronger, dark ale, not a clone but something along the same lines but with my own touch.
Will be kegged and then matured/conditioned for about 2 months before serving.
OG 1.055
FG 1.014-ish
IBU 37
Abv about 5.5 or thereabouts
GP as base, 4% Simpson light crystal, 3% DRC, 4% Simpson Chocolate malt, 8% invert 3 added late boil. 68c/60 min mash and fermented with Verdant/Liberty Bell, will make a small starter to reach a pitch rate of about 1m cells/ml/P.
Hops will be challenger as bittering, EKG 0.5g/ for 20 min and 0.5g/L of Styrian Goldings/Bobek thrown in with the yeast.
Have not really decided yet if I should go with chocolate or black malt, kinda leaning towards switching chocolate to black, same amount.

I don't like chocolate, so I always would prefer black over chocolate. Regarding the rest, sounds nice to me.