English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

They have Landlord and Rudgate's ruby on cask.
I can die a happy man now.

 

[eshea3]

They have Landlord and Rudgate's ruby on cask.
I can die a happy man now.

It would take Boltmaker for me to be that happy

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Keep in mind I live practically as far north you can get along the coast of Sweden, finding cask anything is a victory for me.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

We may not have easy access to cask ale but we have this

 

[balrog]

Update. Kegged today, Day #12. Krausen very Englishy (cheesy brains). Clearing but far from "clear". Taste is...I have no idea. Mild sweet fruit in background, perhaps a little mint going on, definitely no marmalade. Sorta closed transfer. OG 1.043, FG 1.007. Will check in a week or so.

 

[eshea3]

Keep in mind I live practically as far north you can get along the coast of Sweden, finding cask anything is a victory for me.

2 weeks till I'm back to the UK. Robin Hood Beer Festival and a side trip to Southwark in London

 

[Beermeister32]

Yum

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So I have done some more research and finalised a recipe for an Old Ale/KK/Stock, gonna brew a Bitter tomorrow and a historically inspired 1.065 OG Single Stout after that, but then it is time for the Old Ale.
Gonna order a Speidel 12L fermenter tun when I get payed by the end of this month, for secondary fermentation/barrel ageing emulation. I think I have a pretty clear idea about what to do but still have some questions.
This is the base beer:

It will be mashed at 67c/75min and the actual yeast will be my Verdant/MJ Liberty Bell house mix, Nottingham is the closest performance wise in BS so I go with that when making recipes.
The 0min hops are actually hopstands 20min@80c so the actual IBU is probably more like 65 or more.
This will be fermented as an ordinary stronger ale @~2week primary at first, then racked to the Speidel tun with French Medium toast oak cubes and Brett C added, and this is where I have some details that are not fully clear.
From what I have gathered, I should boil the oak cubes for ~10 min or so before putting them in the fermenter, rack the beer and add the Brett, all clear, but then? Just leave it in a somewhat warm place for ~3 months and check gravity and if it is reasonably low check again after 2 weeks to see if it has changed or not? I think I understand that for this ale a reasonable post-Brett FG would be in the low teens.
Dry hops? should they be added at primay fermentation or when I rack to secondary, as a sort of "cask hopping"?
Should I add some campden tablets a day or 2 before bottling to kill the Brett and use CBC1 to bottle with, or use the remaining Brett to carbonate, I suppose even Brett has it's limitations in how complex sugars it can manage to eat or do I risk bottle bombs then? The Beer will be sat at room temp to carb up for ~2months then cellared for about 6 before I try the first bottle.
What water to aim for? I have been using Graham Wheelers profiles and find them very nice for Brittish beers, and I am contemplating his sweet pale or mild profiles, so either slightly sulfate forward or slightly chloride forward.
@DBhomebrew I understand you made a Bretted Old Ale not too long ago, any input/advice?

 

[Witherby]

So I have done some more research and finalised a recipe for an Old Ale/KK/Stock, gonna brew a Bitter tomorrow and a historically inspired 1.065 OG Single Stout after that, but then it is time for the Old Ale.
Gonna order a Speidel 12L fermenter tun when I get payed by the end of this month, for secondary fermentation/barrel ageing emulation. I think I have a pretty clear idea about what to do but still have some questions.
This is the base beer:
View attachment 783655 It will be mashed at 67c/75min and the actual yeast will be my Verdant/MJ Liberty Bell house mix, Nottingham is the closest performance wise in BS so I go with that when making recipes.
The 0min hops are actually hopstands 20min@80c so the actual IBU is probably more like 65 or more.
This will be fermented as an ordinary stronger ale @~2week primary at first, then racked to the Speidel tun with French Medium toast oak cubes and Brett C added, and this is where I have some details that are not fully clear.
From what I have gathered, I should boil the oak cubes for ~10 min or so before putting them in the fermenter, rack the beer and add the Brett, all clear, but then? Just leave it in a somewhat warm place for ~3 months and check gravity and if it is reasonably low check again after 2 weeks to see if it has changed or not? I think I understand that for this ale a reasonable post-Brett FG would be in the low teens.
Dry hops? should they be added at primay fermentation or when I rack to secondary, as a sort of "cask hopping"?
Should I add some campden tablets a day or 2 before bottling to kill the Brett and use CBC1 to bottle with, or use the remaining Brett to carbonate, I suppose even Brett has it's limitations in how complex sugars it can manage to eat or do I risk bottle bombs then? The Beer will be sat at room temp to carb up for ~2months then cellared for about 6 before I try the first bottle.
What water to aim for? I have been using Graham Wheelers profiles and find them very nice for Brittish beers, and I am contemplating his sweet pale or mild profiles, so either slightly sulfate forward or slightly chloride forward.
@DBhomebrew I understand you made a Bretted Old Ale not too long ago, any input/advice?

Are you adding the oak cubes to be historically accurate or because you want to taste what the oak will contribute? My understanding is that that English brewers did everything to avoid the flavor of the wood and wanted neutral barrels and that wood-aged beer to get that barrel influence is a very modern method. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Just curious what you are going for.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Both, I would say, I do like oaky flavour, but it should be kept rather subtle and aged to "mellow out".
Mostly to be historically accurate as a beer of this type would have been aged in a wood cask, might skip the wood if oak flavour is something to avoid, or keep the "dosage" rather low at least, like 1g oak/Liter.
Even if they tried to minimize the flavour contribution it must have had some effect, so a light oak flavour should be accurate.

 

[Miraculix]

Both, I would say, I do like oaky flavour, but it should be kept rather subtle and aged to "mellow out".
Mostly to be historically accurate as a beer of this type would have been aged in a wood cask, might skip the wood if oak flavour is something to avoid, or keep the "dosage" rather low at least, like 1g oak/Liter.
Even if they tried to minimize the flavour contribution it must have had some effect, so a light oak flavour should be accurate.

In my humble opinion, Oak does not benefit beer at all, so I would leave it out completely.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Might skip the oak then.
But anyone have any input on the practical ageing ideas? Never worked with Brett before so I am not 100% sure on exactly how to do it.
Oh and the actual malt is Golden Promise, but BS only has MO...

 

[Witherby]

Might skip the oak then.
But anyone have any input on the practical ageing ideas? Never worked with Brett before so I am not 100% sure on exactly how to do it.
Oh and the actual malt is Golden Promise, but BS only has MO...

I think the weakest part of the recent Wood & Beer book is the complete disregard of English brewing and the use of wood fermenters and barrels from porter to old ale and everything in between. This is particularly frustrating because Brewers Publications had just published Michael Tonsmeire’s book on wild ale which has a great discussion of Brett and wood and English stock ale. For the history of wood aging in English brewing see chapter 15 (“Wood Aged Beer”) in Martin Cornell’s book Amber, Gold and Black.

 

[Miraculix]

I think the weakest part of the recent Wood & Beer book is the complete disregard of English brewing and the use of wood fermenters and barrels from porter to old ale and everything in between. This is particularly frustrating because Brewers Publications had just published Michael Tonsmeire’s book on wild ale which has a great discussion of Brett and wood and English stock ale. For the history of wood aging in English brewing see chapter 15 (“Wood Aged Beer”) in Martin Cornell’s book Amber, Gold and Black.

Weren't the casks usually coated from the inside to inhibit woody flavour in the beer?

 

[Witherby]

Weren't the casks usually coated from the inside to inhibit woody flavour in the beer?

Not in England. That is a continental practice.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/04/lining-casks-with-pitch.html

 

[HM-2]

This is the base beer:

This looks a really good base, though personally I would be upping the DRC and heritage and probably pushing the Vienna down to maybe 20% of the grist. The DRC "sweet spot" for me is usually around 5% of grist, and though I've not used it in combination with Heritage I often do alongside Crisp Extra Light Crystal (100 EBC) at roughly 8%.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I could see that in a more modern beer, but as this is meant to be an approximation of a turn of the century KK ale I keep the specialty malts low, Vienna is a subtitute for mild malt.
The thing I am wondering most about is the Brett and bottling, I would like to avoid bottle bombs so will the brett finish at 80-85% AA or will it slowly eat ALL remaining sugar?
And should I add dry hops in primary or secondary? I know they often added dry hops to casks at racking before secondary fermentation, so I guess chucking the hops in when racking to secondary would be historically accurate.

 

[BasementArtie]

Thanks for the tip. Sounds a lot like working with Notty.

I recently tried the Verdant NEIPA dry yeast a bitter and it was exceptional. Going to now try it in a Foreign Extra Stout.

 

[DBhomebrew]

So I have done some more research and finalised a recipe for an Old Ale/KK/Stock, gonna brew a Bitter tomorrow and a historically inspired 1.065 OG Single Stout after that, but then it is time for the Old Ale.
Gonna order a Speidel 12L fermenter tun when I get payed by the end of this month, for secondary fermentation/barrel ageing emulation. I think I have a pretty clear idea about what to do but still have some questions.
This is the base beer:
View attachment 783655 It will be mashed at 67c/75min and the actual yeast will be my Verdant/MJ Liberty Bell house mix, Nottingham is the closest performance wise in BS so I go with that when making recipes.
The 0min hops are actually hopstands 20min@80c so the actual IBU is probably more like 65 or more.
This will be fermented as an ordinary stronger ale @~2week primary at first, then racked to the Speidel tun with French Medium toast oak cubes and Brett C added, and this is where I have some details that are not fully clear.
From what I have gathered, I should boil the oak cubes for ~10 min or so before putting them in the fermenter, rack the beer and add the Brett, all clear, but then? Just leave it in a somewhat warm place for ~3 months and check gravity and if it is reasonably low check again after 2 weeks to see if it has changed or not? I think I understand that for this ale a reasonable post-Brett FG would be in the low teens.
Dry hops? should they be added at primay fermentation or when I rack to secondary, as a sort of "cask hopping"?
Should I add some campden tablets a day or 2 before bottling to kill the Brett and use CBC1 to bottle with, or use the remaining Brett to carbonate, I suppose even Brett has it's limitations in how complex sugars it can manage to eat or do I risk bottle bombs then? The Beer will be sat at room temp to carb up for ~2months then cellared for about 6 before I try the first bottle.
What water to aim for? I have been using Graham Wheelers profiles and find them very nice for Brittish beers, and I am contemplating his sweet pale or mild profiles, so either slightly sulfate forward or slightly chloride forward.
@DBhomebrew I understand you made a Bretted Old Ale not too long ago, any input/advice?

Congrats on your decision to brew one of these. Yes, I've got one in the cellar, bottled about 5 weeks ago. I did open the bottle with the bottling bucket dregs a few evenings ago, but it's not quite conditioned yet.

For oak flavor history-wise, I'll let the historians speak. Flavor-wise, I'll describe what I've got.

First, I brewed one of my Traquair House approximations with med Hungarian cubes in primary to attempt a nod toward their oak fermentation vessels. Too much. 1oz/~3.5USgal. A year later, it's mellowed enough to be enjoyable but it's still too upfront. I'll be brewing another very soon, likely cutting the oak by half or two thirds.

Second, the old ale. Very much a rendition of the 11-11-11 Gunstock Ale here on HBT. Same med Hungarian cubes, .75oz/3USgal, in secondary. Better than the Traq, but next time I'll likely reduce it a bit. Probably 1/2oz for the 3gal.

I think the best oak dosage gives just enough tannic mouth feel without a ton of flavor. It should be a whiff, not a bat in the teeth. Err on too little.

Yes, I boiled for 10m and did not use the resultant oak tea. That went down the drain, drained cubes into the beer.

I used a sacc/brett blend. Four weeks in primary brought 1.091 down to 1.023. Racked to secondary over oak and dry hops, it continued on down to 1.014 at about eight or nine months. This was stable for another month. Bottled and primed as I normally would. Table sugar or demerara, no sulfites, no extra yeast.

Dry hops in secondary, absolutely. For reasons other than aroma. Hops are antiseptic and help break down the larger sugars for the brett to eat.

That taster bottle from the other evening. The beer's delicious. Any brett flavor is mild and well-balanced. Nothing in the realm of funky, barnyard, etc. As a blend, mine was co-pitched in primary. You may get a more prominent brett character by pitching the brett into a higher stress environment.

If I were to name a fault, I think it's the flameout/whirlpool hops. They leave a oily/resiny impression of which I'm not a fan. I've got an OBE that's suffering from the same thing but worse. I went through a phase last year where I tried to get dry hop affects through heavy late additions. Not anymore. Now I'm doing FWH, top of boil, and nothing after 30m except a small dry hop. H/t to @McMullan for actually sharing a study regarding boil times.

As a whole, I think your time frame for secondary is too short. 2-4 weeks primary, sure. 6-9 months for secondary. A few more for the bottle. CBC [probably] wouldn't hurt, might reduce the bottle conditioning time.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/old-ale-blends.696679/

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Thank you for the informative post.
Might do a heftier 20 min addition and ditch the hopstand then.
Probably gonna add the 1g/L intended for hopstand at 20 min instead in my bitter tomorrow, and keep the 0.5g/intended to be tossed in at yeast pitch...

 

[Miraculix]

Congrats on your decision to brew one of these. Yes, I've got one in the cellar, bottled about 5 weeks ago. I did open the bottle with the bottling bucket dregs a few evenings ago, but it's not quite conditioned yet.

For oak flavor history-wise, I'll let the historians speak. Flavor-wise, I'll describe what I've got.

First, I brewed one of my Traquair House approximations with med Hungarian cubes in primary to attempt a nod toward their oak fermentation vessels. Too much. 1oz/~3.5USgal. A year later, it's mellowed enough to be enjoyable but it's still too upfront. I'll be brewing another very soon, likely cutting the oak by half or two thirds.

Second, the old ale. Very much a rendition of the 11-11-11 Gunstock Ale here on HBT. Same med Hungarian cubes, .75oz/3USgal, in secondary. Better than the Traq, but next time I'll likely reduce it a bit. Probably 1/2oz for the 3gal.

I think the best oak dosage gives just enough tannic mouth feel without a ton of flavor. It should be a whiff, not a bat in the teeth. Err on too little.

Yes, I boiled for 10m and did not use the resultant oak tea. That went down the drain, drained cubes into the beer.

I used a sacc/brett blend. Four weeks in primary brought 1.091 down to 1.023. Racked to secondary over oak and dry hops, it continued on down to 1.014 at about eight or nine months. This was stable for another month. Bottled and primed as I normally would. Table sugar or demerara, no sulfites, no extra yeast.

Dry hops in secondary, absolutely. For reasons other than aroma. Hops are antiseptic and help break down the larger sugars for the brett to eat.

That taster bottle from the other evening. The beer's delicious. Any brett flavor is mild and well-balanced. Nothing in the realm of funky, barnyard, etc. As a blend, mine was co-pitched in primary. You may get a more prominent brett character by pitching the brett into a higher stress environment.

If I were to name a fault, I think it's the flameout/whirlpool hops. They leave a oily/resiny impression of which I'm not a fan. I've got an OBE that's suffering from the same thing but worse. I went through a phase last year where I tried to get dry hop affects through heavy late additions. Not anymore. Now I'm doing FWH, top of boil, and nothing after 30m except a small dry hop. H/t to @McMullan for actually sharing a study regarding boil times.

As a whole, I think your time frame for secondary is too short. 2-4 weeks primary, sure. 6-9 months for secondary. A few more for the bottle. CBC wouldn't hurt, might reduce the bottle conditioning time.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/old-ale-blends.696679/

CBC is a killer strain, so it might inhibit Brett from doing whatever it might continue to do in the bottle.

Interesting comment about the resiny character of hop stands. I just recently fell in love with them for exactly that reason. Tastes certainly differ!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Maybe it's a question of amplitude. With my OBE especially, it overpowers all malt, yeast, etc. Also, it never cleared. That could be the hefty adjuncts. With the old ale, the resinous character is thankfully not as prominent.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I got that resiny feel in my latest bitter with 1g/L fuggle for a 20min/80c hopstand as the only late addition, ditching hopstands and adding a moderately hefty 20-30 min charge and a small dry hop may be a better way to go...
Will do a 1L starter for the Brett when the time comes to give it a good sized stress free pitch, and likely let it sit for a good 6 months, regarding the oak I'll go with 10g of cubes for the 11L I plan to get in to the secondary vessel.
Should be good to just give it the slightest hint of oak and tannins, I do find it hard to believe that the long cask ageing would not leave any trace at all in flavour/mouthfeel...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Gary Gillman is the man for more than you ever need to know about the historical use of oak in British brewing :
https://www.beeretseq.com/?s=oak

 

[Witherby]

Should be good to just give it the slightest hint of oak and tannins, I do find it hard to believe that the long cask ageing would not leave any trace at all in flavour/mouthfeel...

I highly recommend this podcast with Derek Prentice, Ron Pattinson, and Mike Siegel about the recent historically accuarate Goose Island barleywine release based on a Truman recipe from the 1960s (blended from a stock ale and running beer):



Mike Siegel said that they aged the stock ale in neutral oak casks. There may have been a trace of the oak, but the emphasis is on the brett and the hops and they attempted to not have the flavor of the wood.

 

[DuncB]

I could see that in a more modern beer, but as this is meant to be an approximation of a turn of the century KK ale I keep the specialty malts low, Vienna is a subtitute for mild malt.
The thing I am wondering most about is the Brett and bottling, I would like to avoid bottle bombs so will the brett finish at 80-85% AA or will it slowly eat ALL remaining sugar?
And should I add dry hops in primary or secondary? I know they often added dry hops to casks at racking before secondary fermentation, so I guess chucking the hops in when racking to secondary would be historically accurate.

Just bottled a 100% Brett saison. Final gravity was 0.999.
You'd have to pasteurise to stop the fermenting.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

What strain was it? I know the "Belgian type" is a lot more aggressive than the Clausenii or "English type"
Edit: Looking around at the mad fermentationist blog and his entry on Brett with a guy from wyeast, it seems even Brett comes to a point where the sugars become too complex for it to eat, nothing I can find seems to suggest I should expect a 100% AA.

 

[DuncB]

I'm afraid I don't know the exact Brett, I wrangled it from a keg of 8 wired Brett Saison. All I know is there website details re the beer which says it was fermented with Brett only.
The other saison I did with it also fermented out to the same gravity.
I'm fairly confident that my priming sugar dose into champagne bottles will be okay.
Time will tell!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Lots of brett attenuation stuff in here.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/100%_Brettanomyces_Fermentation
TL/DR: "Brett" is as descriptive as "Sacc". You need to know what strain you've got.

 

[BPenny]

CBC is a killer strain, so it might inhibit Brett from doing whatever it might continue to do in the bottle.

My understanding is that the Killer factor in CBC will not effect yeast from a different genus such as Brett, so they should more or less be able to coexist peacefully.