Helle's recipe thoughts

[redrocker652002]

Just keep letting it ride. Slow start usually means long fermentation. It will need to go at its pace now. The sulfur/sulphur is a bi-product of fermentation and hopefully will mostly get eaten back up by the yeast. One of the reasons why one does not want to underpitch a lager beer.

If you can be patient, do not raise the temp of the beer until at least 50% of the F.G. is reached.

As far as keeping the yeast in mason jars, it will only really be useful for up to 2 weeks. A month and a lot of it will be dead or dying. A "yeast brink" is the better way which stored the yeast in a 100% CO2 environment. But that can be something down the road for you to pick up.

Thank you for the words of encouragement. This is a new style for me so the learning curve is very high. I am about at 50% or so now, but going to leave it at 52 degrees or so for now. The beer I used for the gravity reading did not smell really bad so that is encouraging.

The post regarding yeast in the fridge bums me out a bit, but doesn't surprise me. I was thinking of just messing around and trying to get a starter out of it, but it has been in the fridge for probably two months is not longer. I had used some bry97 that had been in the fridge that long, but it took a long time to get going and not really sure it was that good to start with. Dry yeast still isn't too bad price wise, so what the heck. My end goal is to do vials of different strains like one of the sticky's here explains and outlines, but I just don't have all the stuff yet and wife won't give up the freezer space. LOL. Again, thank you for the input. I appreciate it.

 

[Bassman2003]

No worries. The big goal of lagers is to get them to attenuate down to 80%+ apparent attenuation. So in your case, 1.011 or 1.010. Since this is 1st generation dry yeast, maybe bump up the temperature by a few degrees a day starting now until you get to say 65F. Then let it finish at 1.011/1.010 (if it can) which still might take some time, but the beer will not be flabby.

For the next lager brew, mash longer in the 140's to make it easier to reach the lower final gravity numbers. Beta is the key for good lagers.

 

[redrocker652002]

Latest update: Gravity check and it is at 1.012 which is very close to what Brewfather and Grainfather say it should be. It smells very lagerish and I am not getting any sulphur smell at all. A quick sip and I don't get any butter or popcorn taste either so I am thinking it is probably done. So, at this point is it advisable to bring it up to room temp for a bit or just leave it alone? I won't be able to keg it until next week probably as my serving keg needs to be cleaned and sanitized. Any input is welcome as this is new territory for me.

 

[Bassman2003]

The room temp idea works best before you get to the finish line as the yeast would still be active. Now that they are "done" raising the temp does not do too much as we are trying to spur more yeast activity by raising the temperature. It is all about the yeast.

 

[redrocker652002]

I am going to just leave it be until next week. That gives me time to get my keg cleaned and sanitized and clean the lines and tap. Move it to the keg, then let it carb and cold crash. I am looking forward to this one as it has taken a lot longer than most.

 

[Bassman2003]

Cool. It is a learning curve. For future lagers you can look into trying to get the FG lower (longer beta mash rest & more yeast) and trying spunding in your keg (transferring the beer 3-4 points above where it will finish and letting the beer naturally carbonate). Keep us updated as the beer conditions and goes on tap!

 

[wepeeler]

I would advise keeping it cool all the way through. No need to let it get to room temp. Cold crash and package when ready.

 

[redrocker652002]

I would advise keeping it cool all the way through. No need to let it get to room temp. Cold crash and package when ready.

I think that is what I am going to do. Leave it at about 52 for now, keg it next week and drop it down to serving temp and carb at the same time.

 

[redrocker652002]

Well, as life has gotten in the way I will not be able to keg until next week. It continues to sit in the bucket in my ferm fridge at about 52 or so. I am guessing another few days isn't going to hurt it but I guess we will see. LOL.

 

[wepeeler]

Well, as life has gotten in the way I will not be able to keg until next week. It continues to sit in the bucket in my ferm fridge at about 52 or so. I am guessing another few days isn't going to hurt it but I guess we will see. LOL.

That style sat in caves for months. I think you're fine

 

[redrocker652002]

Ok so sorry to revive an older thread but here is my helles vs a store bought. Mine is on the right and is darker. Taste is close though mine might have a bit more hoppy or sweeter taste. I'm still trying to figure it out. Thoughts.

 

[rmr9]

Still looks good! Color can be from using different ingredients and different processes, I personally wouldn’t sweat it too much. Are your flavors in the ballpark of the commercial example? If so I’d say good job, especially if you enjoy it!

 

[Bassman2003]

Ok so sorry to revive an older thread but here is my helles vs a store bought. Mine is on the right and is darker. Taste is close though mine might have a bit more hoppy or sweeter taste. I'm still trying to figure it out. Thoughts.

I would say your beer looks pretty oxidized. Vienna malt is a little darker but at only one pound would not add that much color. This is at the heart of why folks started looking into low oxygen practices. There is flavor associated with the darker color and that flavor is more sugar-sweet oxidation rather than fresh malt flavor.

 

[redrocker652002]

I would say your beer looks pretty oxidized. Vienna malt is a little darker but at only one pound would not add that much color. This is at the heart of why folks started looking into low oxygen practices. There is flavor associated with the darker color and that flavor is more sugar-sweet oxidation rather than fresh malt flavor.

That is kinda what I am getting in the back end is a more sweet type of taste. It is not bad, but a bit different than what the professional beer tastes like. Oh well, I guess I am just not that good at doing this yet. I am rethinking now about even attempting a Hefeweizen if my O2 is not as good as I thought it was. Maybe I will just go back to the pro beers and leave it to the experts. Thanks guys for the input. Appreciate it.

 

[kylewag]

That is kinda what I am getting in the back end is a more sweet type of taste. It is not bad, but a bit different than what the professional beer tastes like. Oh well, I guess I am just not that good at doing this yet. I am rethinking now about even attempting a Hefeweizen if my O2 is not as good as I thought it was. Maybe I will just go back to the pro beers and leave it to the experts. Thanks guys for the input. Appreciate it.

I didn’t use extreme O2 practices in the past and never got that kind of darkening on pale lagers. Did you use the biscuit malt? It’s fairly dark. I’ve only experienced darkening like that due to LME. Honestly, I’ve screwed up beers way worse than just a darker color. I fermented at too high of a temperature once and got fusel alcohols. It was like drinking nail polish remover. I quit for a couple years then got back into it. Hang in there. BTW, what is your setup like?

 

[redrocker652002]

I didn’t use extreme O2 practices in the past and never got that kind of darkening on pale lagers. Did you use the biscuit malt? It’s fairly dark. I’ve only experienced darkening like that due to LME. Honestly, I’ve screwed up beers way worse than just a darker color. I fermented at too high of a temperature once and got fusel alcohols. It was like drinking nail polish remover. I quit for a couple years then got back into it. Hang in there. BTW, what is your setup like?

Yes, I did use the Biscuit malt. I bought it so I thought I might as well use it. I use a Grainfather G30 into a bucket fermenter. This time I bottled and used a bottling wand into cleaned and sanitized bottles. Probably way too much O2, but I have seen many online brewers, reputable ones at that, bottle this way with no issues. I usually keg, so I might give it another go and keg it instead and see what happens. For my kegs I basically push 4 or so gallons of Starsan mixture thru the keg and tap a couple of times and then seal it off with the CO2 from moving the starsan thru. I open the PRV valve when I am ready to do the transfer, if I don't do that beer squirts thru the relief hole in the spigot. I also remove the airlock and push my gas line thru it and just put enough CO2 pressure to see the lid of my bucket to push up but not blow off, if that makes sense. I have had success with my Pale and IPA's that way so I guess maybe I will give that a go next time.

 

[kylewag]

Yes, I did use the Biscuit malt. I bought it so I thought I might as well use it. I use a Grainfather G30 into a bucket fermenter. This time I bottled and used a bottling wand into cleaned and sanitized bottles. Probably way too much O2, but I have seen many online brewers, reputable ones at that, bottle this way with no issues. I usually keg, so I might give it another go and keg it instead and see what happens. For my kegs I basically push 4 or so gallons of Starsan mixture thru the keg and tap a couple of times and then seal it off with the CO2 from moving the starsan thru. I open the PRV valve when I am ready to do the transfer, if I don't do that beer squirts thru the relief hole in the spigot. I also remove the airlock and push my gas line thru it and just put enough CO2 pressure to see the lid of my bucket to push up but not blow off, if that makes sense. I have had success with my Pale and IPA's that way so I guess maybe I will give that a go next time.

I put your grain bill in Brewer’s Friend and the biscuit malt adds 0.7 SRM to the color. It should be around 4.7 SRM & your sample looks like about 6. The commercial sample looks like about 3 SRM. Boiling for 90 minutes can darken it too. Maybe get some SRM cards & measure the target beer next time and use a calculator to make sure your recipe matches that.

 

[kylewag]

Yes, I did use the Biscuit malt. I bought it so I thought I might as well use it. I use a Grainfather G30 into a bucket fermenter. This time I bottled and used a bottling wand into cleaned and sanitized bottles. Probably way too much O2, but I have seen many online brewers, reputable ones at that, bottle this way with no issues. I usually keg, so I might give it another go and keg it instead and see what happens. For my kegs I basically push 4 or so gallons of Starsan mixture thru the keg and tap a couple of times and then seal it off with the CO2 from moving the starsan thru. I open the PRV valve when I am ready to do the transfer, if I don't do that beer squirts thru the relief hole in the spigot. I also remove the airlock and push my gas line thru it and just put enough CO2 pressure to see the lid of my bucket to push up but not blow off, if that makes sense. I have had success with my Pale and IPA's that way so I guess maybe I will give that a go next time.

BTW - are you a Sammy Hagar fan - Red Rocker?

 

[redrocker652002]

I put your grain bill in Brewer’s Fiend and the biscuit malt adds 0.7 SRM to the color. It should be around 4.7 SRM & your sample looks like about 6. The commercial sample looks like about 3 SRM. Boiling for 90 minutes can darken it too. Maybe get some SRM cards & measure the target beer next time and use a calculator to make sure your recipe matches that.

In looking at the can of the pro beer I compared to, they did a double deconcoction mash, would that have made a difference? Also, I only boiled for 75 minutes I think, would changing that to 60 minutes be better? Saying the beer is oxidized makes total sense simply because I bottled instead of kegged. But, there was only a small hop addition so I wasn't as concerned as I guess I should have been.

 

[redrocker652002]

BTW - are you a Sammy Hagar fan - Red Rocker?

LOL. Very much so. I also was a huge Van Halen fan, so when they got together it was a fantastic time for me and rock and roll. LOL

 

[kylewag]

LOL. Very much so. I also was a huge Van Halen fan, so when they got together it was a fantastic time for me and rock and roll. LOL

Me too! I've seen Sammy Hagar in concert many times. I want to go to Cabo sometime.

 

[kylewag]

In looking at the can of the pro beer I compared to, they did a double deconcoction mash, would that have made a difference? Also, I only boiled for 75 minutes I think, would changing that to 60 minutes be better? Saying the beer is oxidized makes total sense simply because I bottled instead of kegged. But, there was only a small hop addition so I wasn't as concerned as I guess I should have been.

I really don't know about the oxidation. I've read that can make beers darker but I've never experienced it. I bottled beer for 30 years without any of the light beers turning dark like that. I'm sure I would have if I tried that with an NEIPA but I've done many light colored ales and lagers where I did very little to limit oxygen and they didn't darken like that. Even after a year in the bottle. Here's a photo of an International Pale lager with a grain bill and hop schedule very similar to a Munich Helles. It was bottled for about 6-7 months. Open transfer to a bottling bucket, batch prime and a bottling wand. It cleared better than this photo if I left the bottles in the fridge for 2-3 weeks. I didn't have the means to cold crash and fine with gelatin at that time. My bottles never lasted that long in the fridge.

 

[redrocker652002]

Me too! I've seen Sammy Hagar in concert many times. I want to go to Cabo sometime.

Long story short, my buddy actually met Sammy at Cabo. He was waiting outside the club for it to open to buy a shirt and Sammy pulled up, asked them what they were doing and said something to the fact of "Hell, I own this place, I'll get you in" LOL. Then gave them the Tshirts and bought them lunch. Another friend saw Sammy at customs and got Sammy to record his outgoing message on his answering machine way back when they had them LOL. Dude seems to be a really stand up guy.

 

[redrocker652002]

I really don't know about the oxidation. I've read that can make beers darker but I've never experienced it. I bottled beer for 30 years without any of the light beers turning dark like that. I'm sure I would have if I tried that with an NEIPA but I've done many light colored ales and lagers where I did very little to limit oxygen and they didn't darken like that. Even after a year in the bottle. Here's a photo of an International Pale lager with a grain bill and hop schedule very similar to a Munich Helles. It was bottled for about 6-7 months. Open transfer to a bottling bucket, batch prime and a bottling wand. It cleared better than this photo if I left the bottles in the fridge for 2-3 weeks. I didn't have the means to cold crash and fine with gelatin at that time. My bottles never lasted that long in the fridge.

I should have taken a photo when I was bottling them, but for some reason I seem to think it was dark like that coming out of the fermenter. I saved the yeast and it has separated and that beer is darker too on top of the yeast and has been in a mason jar sealed in the fridge since I finished the bottles. I don't know, but it seems to taste ok. Has a bit of a sweeter finish than the pro beer, but that might be any number of reasons. I am going to try it again and keg it and see what happens. There is a Homebrew shop in Berkeley that I want to go check out, and I emailed to owner and he was very nice. Said to bring a bottle down and he would taste it and give me some feedback. Good or bad, it will be nice to have someone who knows what they are tasting to give me some ideas and pointers.

 

[Bassman2003]

Don't give up and if you enjoy the flavor, keep drinking it. Pale lagers are challenging and can be a good wake up call for process improvements.

 

[DuncB]

My Helles still at tail end of ferment, double decoction and 97.5 % pilsner and 2.5% carahell. Added the caramel after the first decoction.
Currently spunded so won't be able to see this clear or tasteable for a good month yet.