English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well the Mild is in the bucket in my ferm fridge, about 14L.
It seems since I started buying wholegrain base malt and milling all the grain myself my effec has gone up a bit, my pre boil SG was a tad bit high, I diluted the wort with water and then adjusted the volume to my desired pre boil. But also I never changed my recipe regarding using a sugar produce with higher sugar content, so I overshot my OG a bit, 1.043 vs desired 1.038. Will recalculate my recipes a bit regarding new efficiency and sugar.
Also found out my glass immersion thermometer has gone bonkers, it's off by 5c below actual temp, gonna treat myself to a new digital one I can trust.
My attenuation issues are probably due to me mashing a bit higher than I thought...

 

[McMullan]

@Miraculix, I haven't tried beet 'molasses'. I didn't think the byproducts of refining sucrose from sugar beet were sold to the public, being so nauseous? When I researched it a few years back the consensus seemed to be that culinary uses for beet molasses were very limited. One of the reasons there aren't any natural brown sugars derived from beet? If what you have is genuine beet molasses I'd guess some further processing has made it more palatable.

 

[D.B.Moody]

I didn't even know that beet molasses was available, but we don't use molasses much at all. I thought beet molasses went to livestock feed because the minerals in in made it taste bad to people. (Or maybe like beets. Yuk! )

Anyway, I live in the middle of the US and @Miraculix is in Germany and @McMullan is in the Norway, so things can be different.

But cane sugar that isn't white is what I thought was supposed to be best for making invert. So it iwould be different than inverting table sugar. That coloring, all by itself, no matter what color to invert is taken to, has provided a difference. Is it possible that big brewers inverted less refined cane sugar maybe just at first to save a buck? Is it possible that using invert changes the way fermentation progresses?

And I think inverting brown sugar, which over here is white sugar with cane molasses added back in, would not be quite the same as inverting a less processed cane sugar. I don't know if I could tell the difference, and I have no intention of investigating that.

More to the point, is it possible that just dumping some brown sugar in and maybe getting some invert is an easy workaround to making invert? Is is possible that just dumping in a bit of molasses will do it? I mean I'm an extract brewer, not an all grain control person. What is the difference in the taste of the pint I'm to drink?

Does invert sugar itself, inverted white sugar that is just inverted, not purposely darkened, make the beer different in a better way? I doubt it. Maybe drier, but we're talking English ale here. Is the taste benefit from invert from the darkening of the invert or from using less refined cane sugar which hasn't had all the molasses removed? Or is it both?

I think I'm falling behind with @monkeymath. I have planned on trying invert this summer and had planned on using tubinado. Inverting it is no harder than inverting brown sugar, but either is harder than just adding a tablespoon or two of molasses. Has anyone don comparison batches?

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix, I haven't tried beet 'molasses'. I didn't think the byproducts of refining sucrose from sugar beet were sold to the public, being so nauseous? When I researched it a few years back the consensus seemed to be that culinary uses for beet molasses were very limited. One of the reasons there aren't any natural brown sugars derived from beet? If what you have is genuine beet molasses I'd guess some further processing has made it more palatable.

It's a very common thing in Germany, you can buy it in any supermarket. I do not think that there was any extra processing what I think is that this "nauseous" ist simply not true. My guess is, the nauseous statement came into play for political reasons to discredit beet sugar a bit. Especially in Britain where there was an interest in keeping the sugar demands being met by companies from overseas meaning their own colonies.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Speaking of beet minerals. We recently learned they have enough iron that they'll spark in the microwave!

 

[Miraculix]

I didn't even know that beet molasses was available, but we don't use molasses much at all. I thought beet molasses went to livestock feed because the minerals in in made it taste bad to people. (Or maybe like beets. Yuk! )

Anyway, I live in the middle of the US and @Miraculix is in Germany and @McMullan is in the UK, so things can be different.

But cane sugar that isn't white is what I thought was supposed to be best for making invert. So it iwould be different than inverting table sugar. That coloring, all by itself, no matter what color to invert is taken to, has provided a difference. Is it possible that big brewers inverted less refined cane sugar maybe just at first to save a buck? Is it possible that using invert changes the way fermentation progresses?

And I think inverting brown sugar, which over here is white sugar with cane molasses added back in, would not be quite the same as inverting a less processed cane sugar. I don't know if I could tell the difference, and I have no intention of investigating that.

More to the point, is it possible that just dumping some brown sugar in and maybe getting some invert is an easy workaround to making invert? Is is possible that just dumping in a bit of molasses will do it? I mean I'm an extract brewer, not an all grain control person. What is the difference in the taste of the pint I'm to drink?

Does invert sugar itself, inverted white sugar that is just inverted, not purposely darkened, make the beer different in a better way? I doubt it. Maybe drier, but we're talking English ale here. Is the taste benefit from invert from the darkening of the invert or from using less refined cane sugar which hasn't had all the molasses removed? Or is it both?

I think I'm falling behind with @monkeymath. I have planned on trying invert this summer and had planned on using tubinado. Inverting it is no harder than inverting brown sugar, but either is harder than just adding a tablespoon or two of molasses. Has anyone don comparison batches?

Your forgetting about the effect that glucose has on yeast expression. British ales are mostly brewed with expressive yeasts and this expression can be boosted via glucose. You get this glucose by inverting saccharose.

 

[McMullan]

It's a very common thing in Germany, you can buy it in any supermarket. I do not think that there was any extra processing what I think is that this "nauseous" ist simply not true. My guess is, the nauseous statement came into play for political reasons to discredit beet sugar a bit. Especially in Britain where there was an interest in keeping the sugar demands being met by companies from overseas meaning their own colonies.

If that were the case I'd expect to see a number of natural brown sugars derived from sugar beet. I'm not aware of any. Only inferior refined products that lack that luscious character associated with raw cane sugars.

 

[DBhomebrew]

@D.B.Moody Turbinado (Costco has a good price on 'In The Raw') is what I typically use to make my invert. From what I can gather, it's pretty much the same as Demerara, a step less refined perhaps. It gives me a #2 right off the bat, #3&4 with time in the oven. When I want a #1 I'll pick up some 'Florida' brand raw cane sugar available at Schnuck's. This is a light beige to the Turbinado's light brown.

I would not consider what we call brown sugar. Stripping stuff out just to put other stuff back in is exactly why I cook, bake, brew so much stuff from scratch. Give me the unprocessed good stuff.

 

[McMullan]

I didn't even know that beet molasses was available, but we don't use molasses much at all. I thought beet molasses went to livestock feed because the minerals in in made it taste bad to people. (Or maybe like beets. Yuk! )

Anyway, I live in the middle of the US and @Miraculix is in Germany and @McMullan is in the UK, so things can be different.

But cane sugar that isn't white is what I thought was supposed to be best for making invert. So it iwould be different than inverting table sugar. That coloring, all by itself, no matter what color to invert is taken to, has provided a difference. Is it possible that big brewers inverted less refined cane sugar maybe just at first to save a buck? Is it possible that using invert changes the way fermentation progresses?

And I think inverting brown sugar, which over here is white sugar with cane molasses added back in, would not be quite the same as inverting a less processed cane sugar. I don't know if I could tell the difference, and I have no intention of investigating that.

More to the point, is it possible that just dumping some brown sugar in and maybe getting some invert is an easy workaround to making invert? Is is possible that just dumping in a bit of molasses will do it? I mean I'm an extract brewer, not an all grain control person. What is the difference in the taste of the pint I'm to drink?

Does invert sugar itself, inverted white sugar that is just inverted, not purposely darkened, make the beer different in a better way? I doubt it. Maybe drier, but we're talking English ale here. Is the taste benefit from invert from the darkening of the invert or from using less refined cane sugar which hasn't had all the molasses removed? Or is it both?

I think I'm falling behind with @monkeymath. I have planned on trying invert this summer and had planned on using tubinado. Inverting it is no harder than inverting brown sugar, but either is harder than just adding a tablespoon or two of molasses. Has anyone don comparison batches?

Yes, inverted sucrose (glucose and fructose) is biochemically simpler to ferment. But to get any of that luscious cane sugar character carrying over into the beer you have to use quality raw cane sugar. Once you've trained yourself to appreciated the finer qualities of raw cane sugar it's easier to detect in the final product. Refined sucrose, cane or beet, just lacks lusciousness.

 

[balrog]

@D.B.Moody 'In The Raw'

+1 on "Sugar In The Raw"
Makes a lovely #2 with not much effort
A bit of time, yes, but not much effort

 

[eshea3]

@D.B.Moody Turbinado (Costco has a good price on 'In The Raw') is what I typically use to make my invert. From what I can gather, it's pretty much the same as Demerara, a step less refined perhaps. It gives me a #2 right off the bat, #3&4 with time in the oven. When I want a #1 I'll pick up some 'Florida' brand raw cane sugar available at Schnuck's. This is a light beige to the Turbinado's light brown.

I would not consider what we call brown sugar. Stripping stuff out just to put other stuff back in is exactly why I cook, bake, brew so much stuff from scratch. Give me the unprocessed good stuff.

Costco also has Organic Cane Sugar in a 10# bag. Making a batch of #2 with it for the first time today.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Costco also has Organic Cane Sugar in a 10# bag. Making a batch of #2 with it for the first time today.

Is that like the 'Florida' brand I described? A very light tan?

 

[D.B.Moody]

Your forgetting about the effect that glucose has on yeast expression. British ales are mostly brewed with expressive yeasts and this expression can be boosted via glucose. You get this glucose by inverting saccharose.

I'm not forgetting that; I never knew it. If providing the yeasties with glucose as opposed to requiring them to break down sucrose to get it is a known benefit, why is there a question about why brewers inverted sugar? Why don't they still do it?

@D.B.Moody Turbinado (Costco has a good price on 'In The Raw') is what I typically use to make my invert. From what I can gather, it's pretty much the same as Demerara, a step less refined perhaps. It gives me a #2 right off the bat, #3&4 with time in the oven. When I want a #1 I'll pick up some 'Florida' brand raw cane sugar available at Schnuck's. This is a light beige to the Turbinado's light brown.

I would not consider what we call brown sugar. Stripping stuff out just to put other stuff back in is exactly why I cook, bake, brew so much stuff from scratch. Give me the unprocessed good stuff.

Yes, I intended to use the turbinado. It's why I was asking you about color in that other thread.

Refined sucrose, cane or beet, just lacks lusciousness.

I believe this. It's why I intend to use turbinado sugar. The problem is that if I like the effect, I'm complicating things just a year after I made things easier by moving to a 30 minute boil. I was hoping you would say, "No, I tried it and it's great. Just pour in some molasses. It's easy."

 

[eshea3]

DBHomebrew It would appear to be very similar. Product of Paraguay stamped on the bag.

 

[hout17]

+1 on "Sugar In The Raw"
Makes a lovely #2 with not much effort
A bit of time, yes, but not much effort

I used turbinado sugar (sugar in the raw retaining some of its molasses) and it made a nice #3 with ease. I can definitely taste it in my beer (maybe a little to much lol).

 

[DBhomebrew]

The problem is that if I like the effect, I'm complicating things just a year after I made things easier by moving to a 30 minute boil. I was hoping you would say, "No, I tried it and it's great. Just pour in some molasses. It's easy."

I've recently started doing an extract recipe inspired by your 30min process. Getting some fresh beer made with minimum time and effort is exactly what I'm looking for. I skip steeping grain, but include invert. I don't feel invert is too much of an investment.

Invert lasts pretty long on the shelf, let alone the fridge. You could easily make enough for 4 or so batches at once. It's time consuming, but hardly any effort. Brew day comes, it's no more effort than a jar of store bought molasses. If you pour it into mason jars for the oven, you can stagger pulling them out. Multiple types of invert out of one batch.

 

[z-bob]

82 pages; I can't remember if I've mentioned this before. I made dark invert syrup in a pressure canner. I put a pound of unbleached white sugar in each 1 pint mason jar, filled them up with boiling water (don't remember if I added a little acid or cream of tartar) and pressure cooked them for about 2 hours at 15 psi.

 

[McMullan]

I was hoping you would say, "No, I tried it and it's great. Just pour in some molasses. It's easy."

It is what I do really. If I haven't got any inverted I just add some quality Demerara. When I make invert I stop the process at '#1' then, on brew day, add some cane molasses if the recipe requires #2 and/or #3. Use molasses very sparingly, though. I'll need to check my notes later, but invert #3 is something like 5% of the sugar addition (i e., 5g cane molasses to every 95g invert #1 or raw cane sugar). With molasses, less is definitely more. Too much is going to quickly overwhelm any beer.

 

[hout17]

It is what I do really. If I haven't got any inverted I just add some quality Demerara. When I make invert I stop the process at '#1' then, on brew day, add some cane molasses if the recipe requires #2 and/or #3. Use molasses very sparingly, though. I'll need to check my notes later, but invert #3 is something like 5% of the sugar addition (i e., 5g cane molasses to every 95g invert #1 or raw cane sugar). With molasses, less is definitely more. Too much is going to quickly overwhelm any beer.

I might give this a try thanks.

 

[D.B.Moody]

I've recently started doing an extract recipe inspired by your 30min process. Getting some fresh beer made with minimum time and effort is exactly what I'm looking for. I skip steeping grain, but include invert.

If you've found it good, please post it on that "Brewed a favorite recipe today" thread.

Invert lasts pretty long on the shelf, let alone the fridge. You could easily make enough for 4 or so batches at once. It's time consuming, but hardly any effort.

Since I retired in 2006, I got lots of time, and the "little effort' thing is good for what I don't have lots of at this age.

When I make invert I stop the process at '#1'

I can make this from the light beige Schnucks sugar. I may try that some day, but turbinado is what we have in the pantry. Do you have a regular distinction on when to use #1 vs #2? I mean like a bitter gets this, a mild, gets that, a pale get this or that.

 

[Miraculix]

If that were the case I'd expect to see a number of natural brown sugars derived from sugar beet. I'm not aware of any. Only inferior refined products that lack that luscious character associated with raw cane sugars.

I eat it on a daily basis, trust me, I do not vomit regularly in the morning afterwards

 

[McMullan]

I eat it on a daily basis, trust me, I do not vomit regularly in the morning afterwards

Are we talking just once or twice a week then? And the rest of the week's fine?

 

[Miraculix]

I'd have to ferment it to see if this described taste maybe refers to the final product after all the fermentable sugar is fermented out. Maybe then the taste is off-putting. But just by it's own taste, sugar beet molasses tastes far better than sugar cane molasses. We even have some candies in germany being made out of it. You can make it yourself by boiling down the sap of the sugar beet juice with some cream, there is no further treatment. This stuff just tastes good. Google Grafschafter Goldsaft.

 

[cire]

to continue the topic of invert sugars @cire
I have been reading some posts from a user/thread over at the British sister forum, and old pattinson blog entries, and have started to reconsider my approach to invert sugars.
Firstly, our way of making coloured invert via partial caramellisation has nothing to do with the brewing sugars of old, and should be dropped if you wish to emulate "real" invert, as you have previously mentioned.
Secondly, using Demerara or light Musco to emulate #2 and the same but with a dash of dark Musco to emulate #3 is likely a better approach. The user/thread previously mentioned suggests use of white cane sugar as the base, but I fear that carries too little flavour, the old descriptions, and a pdf from Ragus I found, on both the manufacture and the sugars themselves, describes #2 and #3 as rather colourfull and flavourfull, with plenty of taste carry-over in the finished beer, hence my choice to go for L.Musco as the base for #3 and Demerara/ L.Musco for #2.
You have previously mentioned that you only heat the sugar to around 80c when you manufacture your invert, this seems to have been and still be the way it is done at Ragus, both to invert the sugar and to evaporate water.
This process should create some light maillard reactions, but could this not be achieved by adding the sugar early and let it boil for as long as the wort boils? Combined with the slight acidity of the wort and high temps it should also at least partially invert it.
Am I understanding this correctly?

The entire subject of sugar in British brewing is a can of worms just waiting to be opened. What I will say without fear of being contradiction by fact, is that any brewing sugar made from sucrose inverted by heating it until it reached a particular colour, was either done by a home brewer, or commercially on a very small scale or in error.

Sucrose can be inverted to glucose and fructose by heating alone, but is a slow process. Adding acid speeds the process and/or lowers the required temperature. Ragus say they make invert syrup from a 66% solution of sucrose refined from cane at 70C with HCl to pH 1.6, then neutralised to pH 5 to 6 with sodium (bi)carbonate. To make block brewing sugar, a further 5% of sugar, extracted in the refining process, is added to the inverted syrup, then 10% glucose to seed crystalisation that can take the better part of a week to complete. At that temperature there will be little evaporation.

My earliest attempts at inversion with 1 kg of sugar in 500g of water acidified to pH 1.6 all failed, with analysis finding about half of the sugars were destroyed in the process. Currently I acidified the mixture to between 2.2 to 2.0 when the sucrose from cane has almost dissolved, which happens at 70C. Stirring as the inversion takes place, the mixture is seen to clarify, and other sugar is added depending upon what grade is required, from well refined to pure molasses. This I do in a pan on a stove top, when even with a low heat the mixture will begin to simmer. After 10 to 15 minutes the mixture is removed from the heat and cooled and neutralised if not added to that day's brew.

This method for inversion is very similar to that in Graham Wheeler's first book had instructions for inverting sugar, but in later life he told me he didn't invert sugar for his own brews for reasons, but instead used Muscovado sugar.

 

[McMullan]

Do you have a regular distinction on when to use #1 vs #2? I mean like a bitter gets this, a mild, gets that, a pale get this or that.Ron

No, not really, apart from the obvious like not using too much of the darkest stuff, with more flavour, in something very pale. Invert #1 alone, up to 10-15% fermentables, works great in an IPA, for me. I like about 5% #3 or just Demerara in a standard Bitter. Some otherwise simple-looking Mild recipes Ron's gleaned from historical brewing records include up to 30% or more of a combination of #1, #2 and #3 plus other sugar additions, which work very well. Except for lactose, which seems to strip out desirable flavours.

I'd have to ferment it to see if this described taste maybe refers to the final product after all the fermentable sugar is fermented out. Maybe then the taste is off-putting. But just by it's own taste, sugar beet molasses tastes far better than sugar cane molasses. We even have some candies in germany being made out of it. You can make it yourself by boiling down the sap of the sugar beet juice with some cream, there is no further treatment. This stuff just tastes good. Google Grafschafter Goldsaft.

I think you might be referring to Zuckerrübensirup, which is beet syrup rather than beet molasses? A very dark syrup made directly from sugar beets rather than the byproduct (molasses) from refining sucrose. I suspect this dark syrup is what gets diluted then sprayed on refined beet sucrose to mimick natural brown sugars derived from sugarcane. That's all that's available in Norway's supermarkets, dansukker 'Demerara'. The pure sucrose crystals turn white when added to water, before dissolving, and lack the lusciousness associated with raw cane sugars. Other than boosting gravity it doesn't seem to add anything in brewing.

 

[schmurf]

@McMullan isn't any of Saltå Kvarn, Risenta or Kung Markatta available in Norway? I belive all those are made from unrefined cane sugar.

 

[McMullan]

@McMullan isn't any of Saltå Kvarn, Risenta or Kung Markatta available in Norway? I belive all those are made from unrefined cane sugar.

No, occasionally there's a 'fairtrade' unrefined cane sugar available, but it's nothing special apart from the price. I used to get Kung Markatta cane sugar when shopping in Sweden, but it started getting more expensive than getting Billington's shipped from the UK. I've probably got enough to last a couple more years, for brewing and baking

 

[D.B.Moody]

Some otherwise simple-looking Mild recipes Ron's gleaned from historical brewing records include up to 30% or more of a combination of #1, #2 and #3 plus other sugar additionseem to add anything in brewing.

This is the type of thing that leads me to believe that the reasons to use invert are (1) the easier/faster fermentation from having glucose already there for the yeast and (2) the flavors provided by the maillard reactions darkening the sugars. I will use a raw cane sugar for my invert. I'm not sure that the bit of molasses and minerals that would be extracted from a half pound will contribute much, but it feels right and is easier.
I do not believe just adding sugar to the boil will produce any noticeable inversion. I think that is just wishful thinking by someone who doesn't want to go to the trouble of making invert. Brown sugar has more molasses in it than raw cane sugar. It is known that inversion happens at 236 F. I don't even do a vigorous boil. All I'm really trying to do is extract hop alpha acids.

 

[Miraculix]

No, not really, apart from the obvious like not using too much of the darkest stuff, with more flavour, in something very pale. Invert #1 alone, up to 10-15% fermentables, works great in an IPA, for me. I like about 5% #3 or just Demerara in a standard Bitter. Some otherwise simple-looking Mild recipes Ron's gleaned from historical brewing records include up to 30% or more of a combination of #1, #2 and #3 plus other sugar additions, which work very well. Except for lactose, which seems to strip out desirable flavours.

I think you might be referring to Zuckerrübensirup, which is beet syrup rather than beet molasses? A very dark syrup made directly from sugar beets rather than the byproduct (molasses) from refining sucrose. I suspect this dark syrup is what gets diluted then sprayed on refined beet sucrose to mimick natural brown sugars derived from sugarcane. That's all that's available in Norway's supermarkets, dansukker 'Demerara'. The pure sucrose crystals turn white when added to water, before dissolving, and lack the lusciousness associated with raw cane sugars. Other than boosting gravity it doesn't seem to add anything in brewing.

Yes, Zuckerrübensirup is what I meant. It is basically just molasses with a higher sugar content. Taste wise, it should be pretty much on the same page.

 

[McMullan]

Currently I acidified the mixture to between 2.2 to 2.0 when the sucrose from cane has almost dissolved, which happens at 70C. Stirring as the inversion takes place, the mixture is seen to clarify, and other sugar is added depending upon what grade is required, from well refined to pure molasses.

I think I'll give this procedure a go next time I prep some invert. Seems to be a lot less bother than waiting for sufficient water evaporation to allow the temperature of the solution to go above 100°C. Hitting 116°C, in a safe manner, seems to take ages. Do you start with a 66% solution, as per Ragus? I think that's going to flow better than what I currently make, making it easier to measure out on brew day.