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English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

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WYEAST 1318 London Ale III is the liquid yeast it's supposed to be very similar to.
Here's a whole thread on it

Lallemand Verdant IPA Ale | Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

I just brewed a double NEIPA with it last weekend so I can report back in a few weeks.
Unfortunately it's a new recipe though so can't compare directly with any other yeasts.

It was also top cropped from a previous batch I made a few months ago but that was a bit of a inventory clear out and no grain quick and dirty beer.
A mix of hops, extracts and sugars (including lactose) that were getting old that I wanted to use up.
I guess you could call it a red milkshake IPA.🤒
Was quite tasty and filling actually.

I did do a split batch and fermented the other half with US-05 and a different dry hop.
I do remember the Verdant half turned out nicer but might be because of the different dry hop.
I need to check my notes as it was a while ago o_O
 
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Good information at your link @Shenanigans. Whatever that yeast might be, it's current use suggests it is suited to newer North American styles and possibly not English Ales.
 
Good information at your link @Shenanigans. Whatever that yeast might be, it's current use suggests it is suited to newer North American styles and possibly not English Ales.

Quote:
Wyeast 1318 - London Ale III - Activator

Originating from a traditional London brewery, this yeast has a wonderful malt and hop profile. It is a true top cropping strain with a fruity, very light and softly balanced palate. This strain will finish slightly sweet.


Flocculation: high

Attenuation: 71-75%

Temperature Range: 64-74° F (18-23° C)

ABV: 10 %


This yeast is suitable for following beer-styles:


  • Bitter
  • IPA
  • Brown Ale
  • Stout
  • Scottish Export

Own experience:

British.
 
Yes, it's certainly worth a try, just puzzled as the makers call it Verdant IPA after a relatively new brewery whose main focus is Juicy, hoppy, hazy Pales, IPAs, DIPAs rather than traditional British ales. Prominent notes of Apricot and undertones of tropical fruit is certainly applicable to beers produced by new and some established breweries who have followed trends and styles of overseas.

Just looked through the logbook to see 2014 was the last time I used London yeast. My last brews of that year were with a Yorkshire yeast that won me over and have used yeasts of that ilk ever since. I buy a packet with my next order for a trial.
 
For what it's worth, London III is one of my least favorite yeasts. The interwebs tout it as the Boddington yeast. To my palate, it is dull, lifeless and falls on the tepid side of lukewarm. It is not for me but might be a yeast for you.

Thusly, Verdant IPA is low on my list of new yeasts to try. In fact, I'm trying to cull the herd of yeasties I have in the library. Seems like as soon as I winnow one out, two more magically appear.

@cire West Yorkie and Essex ale (which according to @dmtaylor 's most excellent research) are very closely related, and make most excellent ale's in my experience. Essex Ale is a WLP vault strain, which was recently released and there may be more at white labs if you check. W Yorkie is regularly available from Wyeast or at least used to be.
 
For what it's worth, London III is one of my least favorite yeasts. The interwebs tout it as the Boddington yeast. To my palate, it is dull, lifeless and falls on the tepid side of lukewarm. It is not for me but might be a yeast for you.

Thusly, Verdant IPA is low on my list of new yeasts to try. In fact, I'm trying to cull the herd of yeasties I have in the library. Seems like as soon as I winnow one out, two more magically appear.

@cire West Yorkie and Essex ale (which according to @dmtaylor 's most excellent research) are very closely related, and make most excellent ale's in my experience. Essex Ale is a WLP vault strain, which was recently released and there may be more at white labs if you check. W Yorkie is regularly available from Wyeast or at least used to be.
That is interesting to hear! To me verdant is extremely fruity, but not dull at all. I'm not quite sure if this excessive fruitiness is somehow related to 10% homemade invert additions I've had in every beer I brewed with it so far. Maybe the extra glucose pushes ester production? I will bottle a simple bitter this weekend which I intentionally brewed without invert, malt only. So at least this mystery will be solved soon.

Did you use simple sugars when you tried London 3? What do you exactly mean with dull? No yeast character? Muted hops?
 
That is interesting to hear! To me verdant is extremely fruity, but not dull at all. I'm not quite sure if this excessive fruitiness is somehow related to 10% homemade invert additions I've had in every beer I brewed with it so far. Maybe the extra glucose pushes ester production? I will bottle a simple bitter this weekend which I intentionally brewed without invert, malt only. So at least this mystery will be solved soon.

Did you use simple sugars when you tried London 3? What do you exactly mean with dull? No yeast character? Muted hops?
When you type 'invert' are you referring to inverted unrefined cane sugar? I've done a number of comparable recipes with and without and I'm happy to accept inverted raw cane sugars can make a very pleasant difference. One of my favourites is about 10% demerara sugar, inverted or not, in a simple bitter. It's quite difficult to source good quality cane sugars locally, especially demerara. The 'Dansukker' stuff looks like refined beet sugar sprayed with a coat of molasses. I have to get it sent over from the UK, but it looks like the pandemic has had an impact on supply chains.
IMG_0566.jpg

The one on the left is pre pandemic and on the right from last year. Not quite the same. The pre pandemic stuff is gorgeous, moist and full of complex flavour whereas the latest batch is more like ordinary unrefined cane sugar and best inverted with a little molasses added.
 
When you type 'invert' are you referring to inverted unrefined cane sugar? I've done a number of comparable recipes with and without and I'm happy to accept inverted raw cane sugars can make a very pleasant difference. One of my favourites is about 10% demerara sugar, inverted or not, in a simple bitter. It's quite difficult to source good quality cane sugars locally, especially demerara. The 'Dansukker' stuff looks like refined beet sugar sprayed with a coat of molasses. I have to get it sent over from the UK, but it looks like the pandemic has had an impact on supply chains. View attachment 747888
The one on the left is pre pandemic and on the right from last year. Not quite the same. The pre pandemic stuff is gorgeous, moist and full of complex flavour whereas the latest batch is more like ordinary unrefined cane sugar and best inverted with a little molasses added.
Yes exactly. I use organic "rohrohrzucker", which looks a bit like the right sugar on your picture. It's basically cane sugar that had the molasses removed by centrifugation, which leaves some traces of it. Sometimes I add a little bit of completely untreated sugar, which didn't have the molasses removed at all. Overdoing this results in strong licorice flavour which can be "transformed" into dark fruits and tobacco when boiled fairly long.

I boil my invert as long as it needs to get into the colour direction of Invert no. 2, which enhances caramel and fruity notes.
 
Yes exactly. I use organic "rohrohrzucker", which looks a bit like the right sugar on your picture. It's basically cane sugar that had the molasses removed by centrifugation, which leaves some traces of it. Sometimes I add a little bit of completely untreated sugar, which didn't have the molasses removed at all. Overdoing this results in strong licorice flavour which can be "transformed" into dark fruits and tobacco when boiled fairly long.

I boil my invert as long as it needs to get into the colour direction of Invert no. 2, which enhances caramel and fruity notes.
Yeah, molasses are pretty potent. Easy to ruin a beer. Less is definitely more. I use 1.2% (in invert #1) to make #2 and 3.5% for #3.
 
Yeah, molasses are pretty potent. Easy to ruin a beer. Less is definitely more. I use 1.2% (in invert #1) to make #2 and 3.5% for #3.
I try to get as much flavor from the caramelisation/maillard reactions as possible while adding as little molasses as possible to promote the reactions. The main colour of my invert comes from the sugar treated with heat over time. My darker ones are simply boiled longer. I made a really dark one, literally black, in the oven by keeping it in there for like 8h +. I've yet to brew with it, but the taste test is promising. Burnt sugar in a good way. I will use it in a dark mild this weekend or the next.

Not saying that this is THE way of doing it, but it rendered interesting results in the past.

A friend of mine who is a professional brewer (not British though) said that he adds a strong base at the end of boil and that his invert only gets the colour at this particular point.

So much to experiment with....
 
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For what it's worth, London III is one of my least favorite yeasts. The interwebs tout it as the Boddington yeast. To my palate, it is dull, lifeless and falls on the tepid side of lukewarm. It is not for me but might be a yeast for you.

Thusly, Verdant IPA is low on my list of new yeasts to try. In fact, I'm trying to cull the herd of yeasties I have in the library. Seems like as soon as I winnow one out, two more magically appear.

@cire West Yorkie and Essex ale (which according to @dmtaylor 's most excellent research) are very closely related, and make most excellent ale's in my experience. Essex Ale is a WLP vault strain, which was recently released and there may be more at white labs if you check. W Yorkie is regularly available from Wyeast or at least used to be.


I've not used London III, but tried WLP013 London Ale for 3 brews 2012/13. None were much good and notes on the third included a remark suggesting it not be used again. Nor have I used West Yorkshire or Essex from Whitelabs. When getting London Ale yeast there was a sale at a local homebrew shop when I was rash and were disappointing.

When those were finished I was gifted an authentic West Yorkshire yeast from within UK. Left untouched for a few days from pitching it had hardly fermented and to make steady progress required regular rousing. Shortly afterwards a local brewer gave me a sample of his yeast, which he said didn't need rousing, but I found it did, or at the least, benefitted from it. Those and others of similar types I've used since, have been roused and top-cropped to provide a significant quantity to pitch at subsequent brews resulting in little need to purchase any others, but maybe the time has come for me to put my hand in my pocket again.
 
I've not used London III, but tried WLP013 London Ale for 3 brews 2012/13. None were much good and notes on the third included a remark suggesting it not be used again. Nor have I used West Yorkshire or Essex from Whitelabs. When getting London Ale yeast there was a sale at a local homebrew shop when I was rash and were disappointing.

When those were finished I was gifted an authentic West Yorkshire yeast from within UK. Left untouched for a few days from pitching it had hardly fermented and to make steady progress required regular rousing. Shortly afterwards a local brewer gave me a sample of his yeast, which he said didn't need rousing, but I found it did, or at the least, benefitted from it. Those and others of similar types I've used since, have been roused and top-cropped to provide a significant quantity to pitch at subsequent brews resulting in little need to purchase any others, but maybe the time has come for me to put my hand in my pocket again.
I always seem to go back to Yorkshire yeast. Even when I've been impressed by other yeasts.
 
Is there one that doesn't need the extra pampering?
With enough healthy yeast pitched I think most ferment nice beers. Harvey's and, to a lesser degree, Yorkshire Square Ale (WLP037) seem to benefit more from pampering, though. Ringwood, West Yorkshire Ale and a BrewLab strain referred to as 'CC' are what I've used most without any pampering. Sufficient headspace in the FV is a nice-to-have, either a bucket (extender) attached on top or an over sized FV, say a 60L for a standard batch or 30L for half batch. Rousing isn't essential to get a nice beer. Stirring with a long spoon occasionally, after active fermentation has started, isn't a bad idea. I never tried it, but did plan to get a Speidel 60L FV and recirculate from the bottom tap into the top of the FV via a solar pump, which is probably the simplest way to pamper the yeast. Just ignore all advice offered on pitching rates and pitch as much healthy (fresh) yeast slurry as you can build up. My little 12L Speidel FVs often get used to build up yeast starters from 2L, while fermenting half a batch of mild, before fermenting a full batch and repitching until my empties are full.
 
Harvey's and, to a lesser degree, Yorkshire Square Ale (WLP037) seem to benefit more from pampering, though. Ringwood, West Yorkshire Ale and a BrewLab strain referred to as 'CC' are what I've used most without any pampering.

I've yet to try all of these. Since you have maybe you'd answer a question - do you find that any one of them tends to reflect a Samuel Smith's character? Every time I brew a nut brown I try a new yeast candidate hoping I can get somethign similar to what they use. Yorkshire will be in my next one I think but I'm open to a suggestion if you have one.
 
I've been re-pitching the same WY1469 West Yorkshire for ~7 years now.

After using it for a number of years, I acquired a number of UK strains from the White Labs vault (plus yeast harvested from Harvey's and St. Austell's) to do small test batches to see what I preferred. I tested 9 yeasts in total (pitched in the same wort with the same oxygenation), I did this for three generations of each yeast, and I still decided on 1469 as my preferred yeast.

I typically brew 2.5 gallon batches, and I find pitching from a vitality starter (~1L of first runnings), plus pure O2 through a .5 micron stone being delivered at 1/4 L/min for 3.5 minutes provides consistent performance and flavor development I enjoy.
 
I've yet to try all of these. Since you have maybe you'd answer a question - do you find that any one of them tends to reflect a Samuel Smith's character? Every time I brew a nut brown I try a new yeast candidate hoping I can get somethign similar to what they use. Yorkshire will be in my next one I think but I'm open to a suggestion if you have one.
It's difficult to say with any degree of confidence. I've been trying for a few years now to isolate yeast from the occasional bottle of Samuel Smith's Stingo, but I've not been successful so far. And I'm trying to do so in a yeast lab, too! I just checked local availability - thanks for the reminder - and there're 4 bottles in stock at Drammen Vinmonopolitet, 65.5km away. I'll grab a bottle in the week and give it another go. I don't mind, it's a nice beer. Anyway, WLP037 is definitely more complex. Too much so, if not careful. What I find with commercial traditional English ales is that the qualities often remarked on are actually subtle to very subtle. Beer is a pretty simple affair, in my experience. The enjoyable complexity isn't 'in ya face'. It's generally reserved, but definitely there. It's subtle, but there. If under pitched, especially with something like WLP037 and Ringwood, the yeast profile gets amplified and it can unbalance the beer. This is why I recommend pitching as much healthy yeast as possible, as a home brewer. Traditional commercial English breweries are pitching shed loads of very healthy yeast. It's one of the jigsaw pieces that helps to produce a balanced traditional English ale. In terms of what's available, generally, yeast wise, I'd recommend West Yorkshire (WY1469) to most people and Yorkshire Square (WLP037) to those who are prepared to work with it and build it up into something worth pitching.
 
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I've been re-pitching the same WY1469 West Yorkshire for ~7 years now.

After using it for a number of years, I acquired a number of UK strains from the White Labs vault (plus yeast harvested from Harvey's and St. Austell's) to do small test batches to see what I preferred. I tested 9 yeasts in total (pitched in the same wort with the same oxygenation), I did this for three generations of each yeast, and I still decided on 1469 as my preferred yeast.

I typically brew 2.5 gallon batches, and I find pitching from a vitality starter (~1L of first runnings), plus pure O2 through a .5 micron stone being delivered at 1/4 L/min for 3.5 minutes provides consistent performance and flavor development I enjoy.

Wow, that sounds awesome!
I've only used WY1469 in two beers so far and I was so pleased with it that I'll have a hard time pushing myself to try any other British yeast.
 
It's difficult to say with any degree of confidence. I've been trying for a few years now to isolate yeast from the occasional bottle of Samuel Smith's Stingo, but I've not been successful so far. And I'm trying to do so in a yeast lab, too! I just checked local availability - thanks for the reminder - and there're 4 bottles in stock at Drammen Vinmonopolitet, 65.5km away. I'll grab a bottle in the week and give it another go. I don't mind, it's a nice beer. Anyway, WLP037 is definitely more complex. Too much so, if not careful. What I find with commercial traditional English ales is that the qualities often remarked on are actually subtle to very subtle. Beer is a pretty simple affair, in my experience. The enjoyable complexity isn't 'in ya face'. It's generally reserved, but definitely there. It's subtle, but there. If under pitched, especially with something like WLP037 and Ringwood, the yeast profile gets amplified and it can unbalance the beer. This is why I recommend pitching as much healthy yeast as possible, as a home brewer. Traditional commercial English breweries are pitching shed loads of very healthy yeast. It's one of the jigsaw pieces that helps to produce a balanced traditional English ale. In terms of what's available, generally, yeast wise, I'd recommend West Yorkshire (WY1469) to most people and Yorkshire Square (WLP037) to those who are prepared to work with it and build it up into something worth pitching.
Thanks! Once I've had enough of verdant (might be soon, I just brewed too many beers with it), I will give it a try.
 
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Thanks! Once I've had enough of verdant (might be soon, I just brewed too many beers with it), I will give it a try.
Well, when you're ready, let me know. I don't charge that much, postage mainly. It's more about sharing the joy than charging for the pleasure.
 
I'd like to have a go with the Harveys yeast down here in NZ. What do you think would be the best way to get some to grow up?
Order a slide and keep my fingers crossed or get a small bottle of beer sent over and then grow that up?
Any ideas?
Or just go with a White labs or wyeast close as which I can get.
 
How have you been keeping that going? Starter each time? I’ve only been able to keep a yeast throughout my brew season which is usually Sep-April/May

My SOP is to top crop and reserve for the next batch; with a vitality starter I find I can go 2-3 weeks before re-pitching.

If it goes beyond three weeks, I will prop it up via stir plate starter and resume as usual.

Through pulling different "levers" I can have this yeast achieve 68%-84% AA dependent on what type of recipe I am shooting for (some old Boddington's recipe achieved very high degrees of attenuation, in an era when Brett would not have most likely been the cause).
 
I'd like to have a go with the Harveys yeast down here in NZ. What do you think would be the best way to get some to grow up?
Order a slide and keep my fingers crossed or get a small bottle of beer sent over and then grow that up?
Any ideas?
Or just go with a White labs or wyeast close as which I can get.
I sent some Harvey’s down to NZ last year. I only sent it because the guy was a yeast tickler. I kid you not, Harvey’s yeast is bewitched. It takes something more than standard procedure to make it sing. And that’s from a superstitious witch groomed in Lewes many moons ago. On Harvey’s Best mainly. And one or two witches on broomsticks with and without suspenders. Those were the days. Memories are sweet. Sussex uni. I’d do it all again, just for a chance to tickle Harvey’s yeast 🤘
 
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The enjoyable complexity isn't 'in ya face'. It's generally reserved, but definitely there. It's subtle, but there. If under pitched, especially with something like WLP037 and Ringwood, the yeast profile gets amplified and it can unbalance the beer. This is why I recommend pitching as much healthy yeast as possible, as a home brewer.
Any tips and tricks for the Yorkshire Sq would be appreciated. I got this out of the vault, made maybe half a dozen different tries and flailed around like a headless chicken. Sometimes it would be full saison, other times dull, once infected. I gave up as too much yeast for me. But I've got some in the fridge that can prolly be revived and I'd be willing to give it a shot with some pointers.

Is it as simple as a huge starter, stir it with a spoon twice a day for the first 2-3 days of fermentation? What temperature?
 
Is it as simple as a huge starter, stir it with a spoon twice a day for the first 2-3 days of fermentation? What temperature?

It should help, but I’d say WLP037 performs best with more effective rousing. One of the reasons a big starter (or, even better, a big repitch) works better is that it leaves more yeast cells in the wort fermenting. That sounds like I’m stating the obvious, I know. But with highly flocculant, top-cropping Yorkshire strains they prefer to climb out of the wort and bury themselves in sediment at the bottom. Even if you think you’ve pitched enough, based on what mysterious pitching calculators prescribe, the fermentation is likely under pitched without rousing and getting yeast cells back into the wort. I pitch at 17*C, once yeast and FV wort are steadily at the fermentation chamber setting. I generally don’t control the temperature, unless ambient is very warm or cold. Just let it free rise under its own steam. It my case - with a very large corner fridge as fermentation chamber - it rarely goes above 21-22*C. I don’t like the temperature ping ponging back and forth to risk shocking the yeast.
 
Any tips and tricks for the Yorkshire Sq would be appreciated. I got this out of the vault, made maybe half a dozen different tries and flailed around like a headless chicken. Sometimes it would be full saison, other times dull, once infected. I gave up as too much yeast for me. But I've got some in the fridge that can prolly be revived and I'd be willing to give it a shot with some pointers.

Is it as simple as a huge starter, stir it with a spoon twice a day for the first 2-3 days of fermentation? What temperature?

While there are some confines, working with a Yorkshire yeast might not be as restricted as might first be imagined.

Basically such yeast are very heavy top fermenting AND very flocculant. After pitching there is the usual lag when the yeast are not that apparent by observation, but once a krausen begins to form, it will continue to grow and be raised by the CO2 generated. If left untouched it looks in every respect like any other yeast, but it flocculates to thicken and become less permeable, thereby diminishing the quantity of active yeast in the wort. This is seen by parting the yeast to reveal a less active surface and darker wort than will be seen with other yeast strains. Effectively fermentation is continually subsiding, unless the surface yeast is returned to the wort, such that if large sterilized paddle or the like is used for this purpose, the wort can be seen to color up as the yeast returns.

When I ferment 50 litres in a 100 litre vessel, maybe 6 or 8 hours after pitching the yeast would be oozing down the outside if a lid was fitted. For this reason, open fermentation is the way these yeasts are used, and are roused to retain yeast in suspension and active. The more rousing, the more the working yeast and the more heat generated. Therefore there is a relationship between the rate of rousing, temperature and potential temperature control. Rousing also controls the rate of fermentation AND the degree of fermentation.

Basically, without rousing fermentation slows to a crawl, and this can and is used to advantage for racking. As sugars present diminish, fermentation will slow and a point comes when rousing is stopped and the cap is skimmed to leave a thin covering for protection from bacteria and oxygen. Gravity is then measured and if as intended of expected the green beer is allowed to cool (NOT CHILLED) to cellar temperature over a day or so and for a day or three when the beer clears while very slowly fermenting to create and maintain carbonation. The beer is then racked from between the top and bottom layers of yeast to carbonate and condition in a sealed container.

There are significant differences between Burton yeasts and Yorkshire yeasts and the necessary equipment.

Yorkshire yeasts can and have been used to good effect without using a Yorkshire Square, but they do have their advantages.

@tracer bullet , I've had the pleasure of a conducted tour of Sa Smith's Brewery by none other than Sam Smith the third. There beers are distinctive while the brewery is very old fashioned, but nothing remarkable or vastly different to other breweries of the same period. Very little equipment from mash tun to cask is modern, indeed much of it is original with signs of ancient repair. I don't think their yeast is the only reason for their beers being potentially difficult to replicate, but Tadcaster, like Burton was renown for its brewing water. Their supply has been in use from very early days from an aqua 78 feet (I think) below the brewery, the same as all other breweries in the town. There are now only two others, John Smith and The Tower Brewery, recently owned by Coors, but in earlier times there were several more. I should have asked for a sample when visiting, for I think the source is in a strata of magnesian limestone that once was the shore of the Zechstein Sea, an inland sea when there was only one landmass on earth. Water from this aquafer has an elevated level of magnesium as compared to aquafers in other limestones and all I might suggest is despite the standard warnings about excess magnesium, try brewing it with 100 ppm calcium and 40 ppm magnesium with a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate.
 
Thanks @McMullan and @cire for the recommendations. Well... I'm drinking a porter (I run these on the lighter, drier side with brown and black malts) and fermenting a stout (heavier w/ roasted barley and chocolate), but maybe a brown will have to be next. I was thinking an IPA to mix it up haha but I'm a bit excited now to try your recommendations, so we will see. Thanks again.
 
@McMullan and @cire thanks. I am going to have to take another stab at the Yorkshire Squares before throwing in the towel. Either of you want to share a showcase recipe for the yeast?

To be frank, the recipe is the least important factor. You are more than welcome to any I've used, but buying in bulk mean there are lots of odds and ends to use up, that create most recipes.

My Black Sheep Ale recipe. 90 minute mash and 90 minute boil with half hour stand after boil and after cooling to 80C.

Liquor profile 185 Ca, 43 Mg, 31 Na, 385 SO4, 200 Chloride with alkalinity 25ppm as CaCO3.
BS.jpg


This one more hoppy and lighter. The hops quantities were chosen to use up odds and ends on hand, but I always use a large array of hops of similar origin/family for this recipe to produce a beer of greater character.

Liquor profile was 150 Ca, 34 Mg, 38 Na, 285 SO4, 183 Chloride and alkalinity 20 ppm as CaCO3.
Again 90 minute mash and boil with half hour stand at 80C.

BT.jpg
 

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