English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[shoreman]

That might be a good yeast for you. That said, why not use a real british strain instead? To name just a few that I like: Nottingham is a workhorse that attenuates well, drops out clean and is far from finicky. Wyeast 1469 is highly flocculant with around 70% attenuation. WLP07 is clean, 80% attenuation and highlighly flocculant.

Thanks. I've used Notty in the past alot and its a great strain but I had issues once repitching dry yeast and tend to build up a good amount of wyeast or omega yeast for starters or repitching. For a house yeast I need liquid.

Wyeast 1469 looks interesting, will check it out. I've used 007 a few times and have found it to be a finicky, once had a full on stalled ferment at like 1.024 on a simple bitter and I mash for fermentibility. I like my beers dry, so a bunch of the english strains I have passed on but will check out Wyeast 1469.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That said, why not use a real british strain instead?

1332 and WLP041 are "real" British strains - as I said above they're close relatives of the WLP007 you suggest, but with better flocculation and a bit less attenuation (which is no bad thing for many British styles).

Nottingham is hugely popular among British homebrewers (and more than a few commercial breweries) as it is so forgiving and easy to work with, but does lack the character that you really want for a proper British beer.

 

[bierhaus15]

WY1332 is a good choice, although it can go a touch tart when fermented warm; not surprising considering its Whitbread B origins.

Another good, albeit overlooked UK yeast that fits the bill is WY1335. It is similarly clean, attenuative and flocculative, while still providing British character.

 

[Landlord]

You're a better man than me!

Worth noting that if you're using 2018 BX, they're much more Goldings-y than usual, if you want that blackcurrant you might want a different year (or eg Bullion from another year).

Some here might be interested in or have opinions on kmarkstevens' plans for a UK beercation over on this thread.

6% is considered pretty drinkable on this side of the pond- 5% beers are descibed as sessionable!

I think my BX are 2018 crop but might be 2017, I bought them from cross my loof back in the spring- Im not getting much blackcurrant out of them eitherway- but they are nice and spicy, in a fuggles kind of way.

 

[kmarkstevens]

1332 and WLP041 are "real" British strains - as I said above they're close relatives of the WLP007 you suggest, but with better flocculation and a bit less attenuation (which is no bad thing for many British styles).

Nottingham is hugely popular among British homebrewers (and more than a few commercial breweries) as it is so forgiving and easy to work with, but does lack the character that you really want for a proper British beer.

I stand corrected. Rumor has it that WLP041 is the Red Hook and/or Hale's yeast strain. I've drunk tons of Red Hook ESB and visited the brewery (maybe 15 miles away). When I get to the UK, then I'll be able to judge if it's a proper ESB.

Notty is probably my favorite "Plan B" yeast for when don't know what to use, don't have a starter or a liquid yeast handy.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you look at Hale's history, you'll see that Mike Hale spent a year at Gale's in 1982 and his Hales Special Bitter suspiciously shares the same initials as Gale's flagship Horndean Special Bitter - the general assumption is that Hale took the Gale's yeast with him when he went home.

When I get to the UK, then I'll be able to judge if it's a proper ESB.

When you get to the UK you'll understand that there's no such thing as "a" ESB as it's not a style of beer, but a specific beer from Fuller's that isn't particularly representative of strong bitter as a whole.... (and that you'll likely only find in Fuller's pubs in London, and even then not in all of them)

 

[shoreman]

@northerbrewer do you know the origin story behind Greg Noonan’s Vermont Pub and Brewery Conan strain that made it to the alchemist via 7 barrel brewery?

The story I heard is that Greg picked this yeast up in a trip to England in the beginning of VPB.

I was using the Omega version of that yeast making pale ales and decided to use it in my Rye Mild recipe that has maybe .5oz of hops in it. Dropped crystal clear in the keg in 2 weeks no finings.

That yeast can floc well if there aren’t a gazzillion hops in the bill.

 

[shoreman]

Another good, albeit overlooked UK yeast that fits the bill is WY1335. It is similarly clean, attenuative and flocculative, while still providing British character.

1335 looks interesting, do you know the origins of that yeast?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Little beyond the headline story. But the one Conan that's been sequenced falls very close to that same WLP007 group, so I'd assume Noonan asked for a good yeast for conicals and was told Whitbread B, which has since evolved a little in Vermont.

Allegedly 1335 is from Adnams, but it may be the other half of the multistrain to WLP025. Extracting the multistrain from Adnams minicasks is a fairly standard thing over here, it's a nice yeast.

 

[shoreman]

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the time.

 

[bierhaus15]

1335 looks interesting, do you know the origins of that yeast?

Per the 1335, it is also believed to be a Whitbread B derivative and WY1335 and WLP025 behave and taste quite differently. I have yet use them as a blend, but either one works well for British beer. I slightly prefer 1335 for its better top cropping ability, although WLP025 is more characterful.

The Conan story is very convoluted but it is highly likely it is another Whitbread B type, as that was one of the most common yeasts sold/used by early micros in the US at the time. The other popular strains were the isolated NCYC1187 (essentially the same as Notty) and used as a CCV fermentation yeast, Ringwood (being part of the larger 1187 based culture that contained Whitbread yeasts), and "Whitbread," which was initially sold as a dry multi strain containing both A and B strains and then later a single strain version. In the early 90's the liquid form of NCYC1026, Whitbread Dry, became available. Confused yet?

 

[shoreman]

Interesting. Here is photo of Conan on a small amount of hops, 2 weeks in the keg only a primary ferment for 7 days. I always thought it was the floc of that yeast, but I think the "haze" is just a pure bi-product of that yeast's interaction with large hop bills.

 

[Hanglow]

Might have posted this before, it's about Ragus who still make brewing sugars used by the likes of Harveys, Tim Taylor, Jennings, Brakspeare etc. Might be interesting for sugar/invert nerds
http://ragus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IBG-Article-December15.pdf

 

[Franktalk]

Thanks for posting--lots of interesting information!

 

[kmarkstevens]

When you get to the UK you'll understand that there's no such thing as "a" ESB as it's not a style of beer, but a specific beer from Fuller's that isn't particularly representative of strong bitter as a whole.... (and that you'll likely only find in Fuller's pubs in London, and even then not in all of them)

I'm Shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that the BJCP guidelines are not exactly accurate when it comes to style. Ain't the first time septics lose something in interpretation from across the pond.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm Shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that the BJCP guidelines are not exactly accurate when it comes to style. Ain't the first time septics lose something in interpretation from across the pond.

There is no ESB in the style guidelines and I think they are fairly accurate. There is a ordinary bitter, best bitter, and strong bitter.

The problem is that the style is very loosely defined out of necessity, so there is a large amount of room for interpretation. In the US I tend to think An authentic bitter from the UK probably wouldn't score well because we are not used to that level of esters over here even though the guidelines do include them.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The 2008 BJCP guidelines has 8c ESB, but at least noted that it referred to a specific beer in the UK, the 2015 version has 11c Strong Bitter but the damage has been done.

The 2015 guidelines are a big improvement on the 2008 version but still for instance only think that mild can be dark and under 3.8% although they do mention some of the diversity in passing.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Decided I don't like the taste/character of brown malt. I've made 3-4 test batches and brown malt from 2 different sources. Confirmed it with a bottle of Samuel Smith Taddy Porter. It's just not for me. Guess I'll have to use Invert 3 or 4 and chocolate to do something similar. Any other suggestions for subbing out the brown malt are welcome.

 

[kmarkstevens]

deleted duplicate post

 

[Hanglow]

You could try some/more amber malts then, they can also have a bit of variation.Won't be similar but will a fair amount of flavour
crisp - quite light and biscuity
fawcetts - much more strongly flavoured, with coffee notes
simpsons - in the middle


I think most people who like beers with brown malts like them better after they have aged at least 6 weeks or so. But if you didn't like it in the taddy porter then it might well not be for you! Fullers London Porter is another with brown malt, Simpsons I think, it could be another to try to confirm.

 

[Miraculix]

I also didn't like brown malt at all. But After half a year of aging the beer was really good... I used ten percent in that one, it was an experimental brew to get to know the malt.

 

[bierhaus15]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

 

[Miraculix]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

Makes sense, my test beer was brewed with Notty and "acrid" probably matches the first 3 month's taste the best.

 

[bwible]

The 2008 BJCP guidelines has 8c ESB, but at least noted that it referred to a specific beer in the UK, the 2015 version has 11c Strong Bitter but the damage has been done.

The 2015 guidelines are a big improvement on the 2008 version but still for instance only think that mild can be dark and under 3.8% although they do mention some of the diversity in passing.

Didn’t they also used to have “English Pale Ale” as a separate style, ie Bass Ale, Whitbread, and others? I guess thats under Strong Bitter now? Doesn’t seem right to me either to be lumping these beers under bitter.

 

[kmarkstevens]

You could try some/more amber malts then, they can also have a bit of variation.Won't be similar but will a fair amount of flavour
crisp - quite light and biscuity
fawcetts - much more strongly flavoured, with coffee notes
simpsons - in the middle

I think most people who like beers with brown malts like them better after they have aged at least 6 weeks or so. But if you didn't like it in the taddy porter then it might well not be for you! Fullers London Porter is another with brown malt, Simpsons I think, it could be another to try to confirm.

Appreciate the feedback. Not sure I'm willing to wait 6 months for the brown ale to turn around. Oddly enough, I'm perfectly fine with black malt

Will try the Fuller's Porter and see if that one is alright for my palate. Don't have much of a English beer selection here and one always wonders how fresh and/or how long the bottle has been under the florescent lights. I can get the Fuller's Porter. In fact, just re-tried the London Pride, and now the "marmalade" is obvious after reading descriptions here.

Never tried amber malts but have made a note to put some into my next on-line order.

BTW, just curious what folks from over the pond think of the canned Boddington's pub ale with the widget? How representative is it of what you can get in pubs in the UK? Would it be a "best bitter" under the guidelines? (I think it's a really good beer. Have been drinking it since living in Hong Kong 20 years ago. Local supermarket has this and Guinness for ~USD2/can)

 

[rhys333]

Decided I don't like the taste/character of brown malt. I've made 3-4 test batches and brown malt from 2 different sources. Confirmed it with a bottle of Samuel Smith Taddy Porter. It's just not for me. Guess I'll have to use Invert 3 or 4 and chocolate to do something similar. Any other suggestions for subbing out the brown malt are welcome.

What is it that you don't like about brown malt, and how much did you use? I include about 10% in a porter and adds a subtle complexity, but nothing more.

 

[Mer-man]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

And the yeast you used was . . . ?

 

[schmurf]

...
BTW, just curious what folks from over the pond think of the canned Boddington's pub ale with the widget? How representative is it of what you can get in pubs in the UK? Would it be a "best bitter" under the guidelines? (I think it's a really good beer. Have been drinking it since living in Hong Kong 20 years ago. Local supermarket has this and Guinness for ~USD2/can)

I'm not from the UK, but when I started to visit in the 80's I fell in love with Boddington's ... it was the first ale I had there Some years later, back home, I bought some cans and it wasn't the same thing...it wasn't bad, but not the same thing.

 

[kmarkstevens]

What is it that you don't like about brown malt, and how much did you use? I include about 10% in a porter and adds a subtle complexity, but nothing more.

The acrid taste gets me. Did a 1940 Whitbread Porter with 14% brown malt and WLP017 Whitbread yeast. And a 1937 Courage Stout at 14% brown using a my house mix of ~12 English yeasts. (I shant be using that again as to muddled and the WLP026 is giving off POF flavors I don't like, but it was a fun experiment). Pretty sure I made another porter in there but can't find the notes.

Okay, so I still have a bit unused brown malt. Therefore, I should give it a try and use 10% or less to see if that adds complexity without being over bearing. At the same time, should brew with a less attenuative yeast like a Fullers or Whitbread. And I should also try the Fullers London Porter. And if it still tastes like ass, I can say I tried and it's not for my palate.

 

[bierhaus15]

And the yeast you used was . . . ?

Fullers... Imperial Pub. It was actually a 12 gal split batch and the other half used Courage, which is another fruity-lower attenuating strain, and similarly tastes very nice.

The recipe was from the Fullers ESB thread; something like: 73% Pale, 14% C60, 10% Brown, and 3% Chocolate. Mashed at 150F for 60 min. Pitched at 0.75 m/c/ml/P and oxygenated to 12 ppm. Gravity went from 1.054 to 1.012 in 4 days for both. Just about a perfect fermentation.