English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[user 246304]

Got a mild to brew tomorrow...

Awesome man. That's in the pipeline for me, too. When my wife and I won the "World Beer Tour" web prize and had the beer dinner with Michael Jackson and Mark Dorber at his pub (White Horse, Parson's Green), first pint Michael chose was a dimpled mug of mild. Haven't had one since but what a storied history and no excuse not to have brewed one by now.

Is it a clone, or your own recipe? I've one from Ron Pattinson, Lee's 1954, and another one from an English brewer here, which by the looks of it, to die for.

I'll say again. I won't be able to wait out the Festbier or any other lagers in the single beer fridge/fermentation chamber. If I am murdered - my wife did it.



Good luck. Would love to see how it goes as you do it!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

It's my own recipe.

Crisp Vienna as base(this is probably their mild malt renamed Vienna because lol, marketing)
8% Simpson medium crystal
3% Simpson black malt
12% invert 3(made with a mix of white cane, light muscovado and a dash of dark muscovado, some minor caramellisation and maillard darkening during the cook)
Gonna add 50ml of ~9000 ebc caramel in the boil and 15g chocolate malt in the sparge to get it properly dark.

1.034 OG 16 IBU with a 0.75 gram/liter 15min charge of EKG and a 0.5g/liter bobek dry hop.

I've got a late 50's Lee's mild inspired one on tap right now though. Very similair but a bit less crystal and no black but about 7% brown malt.

 

[Brewskey]

Thanks Erik. Like Colindo I actually find Challenger's bittering quality quite mellow. Of course, I am mad for it as a late hop, all the way through to dry hopping. In fact, tomorrow is the first lager I've brewed in over 20 years, I believe; a festbier at my son's request. And it's going to suck because that ties up the pipeline unless I get a second fermentation fridge. Next up is actually a Coniston's Bluebird, with Ward's here any day from BL. I don't think I can wait - even if it means the second fridge goes in our bedroom. British brewing keeps me going.

Ever thought about pressure fermenting those lagers? I've had good luck with it at room temp. You don't need a 2nd fridge that way. Sorry to derail...

 

[user 246304]

Ever thought about pressure fermenting those lagers? I've had good luck with it at room temp. You don't need a 2nd fridge that way. Sorry to derail...

I've only heard about it and planned to look into it. Wasn't aware you could do it at room temp. Thanks, will look into it!

 

[user 246304]

It's my own recipe.

Crisp Vienna as base(this is probably their mild malt renamed Vienna because lol, marketing)
8% Simpson medium crystal
3% Simpson black malt
12% invert 3(made with a mix of white cane, light muscovado and a dash of dark muscovado, some minor caramellisation and maillard darkening during the cook)
Gonna add 50ml of ~9000 ebc caramel in the boil and 15g chocolate malt in the sparge to get it properly dark.

1.034 OG 16 IBU with a 0.75 gram/liter 15min charge of EKG and a 0.5g/liter bobek dry hop.

I've got a late 50's Lee's mild inspired one on tap right now though. Very similair but a bit less crystal and no black but about 7% brown malt.

Man, looks fantastic, congrats. Looking forward to more.

Can't remember - the 9000 EBC isn't Brupak, but the other one, right? Where did you get it?

 

[Miraculix]

Awesome man. That's in the pipeline for me, too. When my wife and I won the "World Beer Tour" web prize and had the beer dinner with Michael Jackson and Mark Dorber at his pub (White Horse, Parson's Green), first pint Michael chose was a dimpled mug of mild. Haven't had one since but what a storied history and no excuse not to have brewed one by now.

Is it a clone, or your own recipe? I've one from Ron Pattinson, Lee's 1954, and another one from an English brewer here, which by the looks of it, to die for.

I'll say again. I won't be able to wait out the Festbier or any other lagers in the single beer fridge/fermentation chamber. If I am murdered - my wife did it.



Good luck. Would love to see how it goes as you do it!

If you happen to have kind of reasonable ambient temperatures in your home, you can get away with uncontrolled temperature when brewing lower abv milds. My experience is that the lower abv beers around 3% don't react much to temperature at all, in fact usually they improve a bit when fermented a bit warmer. Yeast expression is limited through the low initial gravity so it's good to up it a bit. It's also usually done in just a few days.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Man, looks fantastic, congrats. Looking forward to more.

Can't remember - the 9000 EBC isn't Brupak, but the other one, right? Where did you get it?

Yes it's the basic non ammonia kind from brewferm. The other one is pushing 30000 ebc...
I've noticed that the base variety of caramel colour actually adds a little flavour when used in higher amounts.

 

[Colindo]

If you happen to have kind of reasonable ambient temperatures in your home, you can get away with uncontrolled temperature when brewing lower abv milds. My experience is that the lower abv beers around 3% don't react much to temperature at all, in fact usually they improve a bit when fermented a bit warmer. Yeast expression is limited through the low initial gravity so it's good to up it a bit. It's also usually done in just a few days.

Correct. Heat production during fermentation is a function of how much sugar is converted at the same time, which is depends on yeast count, sugar concentration and temperature.

 

[eshea3]

I use challnger as my main bittering hop, aswell as sometimes in later addtions as it is a splendid dual-use variety.
But I don't find it all that clean, it got a little "bite" or harshness to it, obviously not like Target but still somewhat present, wich is why I like it as a bittering hop.

I've used pPlgrim for bittering. TBH I really don't notice any significant difference between using any hop at 60+ minutes as long as I get the IBUs correct.

 

[Colindo]

This is my hop schedule for Otter Ale that I love.

Hops (75 g)​

30 g (24 IBU) — Challenger 6.5% — Boil — 60 min

20 g (7 IBU) — Fuggles 5% — Boil — 15 min

25 g (2 IBU) — East Kent Goldings (EKG) 5% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand @ 80 °C

The Real Ale Almanac from 1992 states "Kent Challenger and Fuggles whole hops" as ingredients. So I guess the hopstand is your own addition?

I loved Otter Ale when drinking it during a vacation in 2020, but unfortunately the pub no longer served the ale when I returned. It had a smooth mouthfeel that I never managed to replicate...

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The Real Ale Almanac from 1992 states "Kent Challenger and Fuggles whole hops" as ingredients. So I guess the hopstand is your own addition?

I loved Otter Ale when drinking it during a vacation in 2020, but unfortunately the pub no longer served the ale when I returned. It had a smooth mouthfeel that I never managed to replicate...

It is, and you are right it’s a great beer.

 

[cire]

Correct. Heat production during fermentation is a function of how much sugar is converted at the same time, which is depends on yeast count, sugar concentration and temperature.

Of course, a Mild brewed by a British Commercial brewer and made in large volume would be pitched at their standard pitching temperature and allowed to free rise before being attenuated by cooler water passed through pipes in the FV should the temperature rise above their predetermined rate and upper limit. Hot alcohols are usually created in the earlier stages of fermentation, so are therefore less likely to be created in less alcoholic beers, unless one were to be reckless. 18C is a typical pitching temperature, which can rapidly rise in a large volume, but maybe not as quickly in home brew volumes and equipment, though it may not be wise to cast all controls to the wind.

 

[DuncB]

I used brewers gold and pilgrim in my last dark mild. All bittering at 20 ibu total not sure really that noticeable.
I didn't want it to be.
Brewing it again this weekend will use up my last 10.4 g of brewers gold.
Then it will be pilgrim and something else next time.

 

[Colindo]

attenuated

I think you meant "attemperated", but apart from that I agree wholeheartedly with you statement.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As a heads up, Steve Dunkley of Beer Nouveau fame is organising an Historic Brewing Conference in Manchester 5-6 August with the likes of Gary Gillman, Lars Marius and Christina Wade coming over. There's three speakers not announced yet, who I assume will include Ron and Martyn Cornell.
https://bsky.app/profile/historicbrewcon.bsky.social/post/3kkwbxwbeef2s

The Great British Beer Festival is normally that week but unfortunately they have problems with the venue so it's been cancelled this year. Still, Manchester is one of the greatest beer cities in the world, so you won't be short of great beer, and with Steve being involved I'm sure he will get some of his mates to produce specials for the conference.

And if you want a taster, Matt Curtis has recently written a book about the Manchester beer scene :
https://shop1.camra.org.uk/product/manchesters-best-beer-pubs-and-bars/

 

[McMullan]

As a heads up, Steve Dunkley of Beer Nouveau fame is organising an Historic Brewing Conference in Manchester 5-6 August with the likes of Gary Gillman, Lars Marius and Christina Wade coming over. There's three speakers not announced yet, who I assume will include Ron and Martyn Cornell.
https://bsky.app/profile/historicbrewcon.bsky.social/post/3kkwbxwbeef2s

The Great British Beer Festival is normally that week but unfortunately they have problems with the venue so it's been cancelled this year. Still, Manchester is one of the greatest beer cities in the world, so you won't be short of great beer, and with Steve being involved I'm sure he will get some of his mates to produce specials for the conference.

And if you want a taster, Matt Curtis has recently written a book about the Manchester beer scene :
https://shop1.camra.org.uk/product/manchesters-best-beer-pubs-and-bars/

Lars Marius? Not a serious conference then. Unless he’s going to talk about spud washes and distilling in rural Norway over the last 200 years.

 

[Colindo]

Historic Brewing Conference in Manchester 5-6 August

Sounds good and looks good! Especially if the GBBF is not happening this year, I might find time to go there.

 

[McMullan]

Come off it. The inaugural ‘Historic Brewing Convention’ to be held in England, in Europe - undeniably the historical beer region of the modern world - with a richly documented brewing heritage (culture!) going back centuries, and delegates will get a talk spinning beery yarns about the obscurity of kveik?

 

[Colindo]

Come off it. The inaugural ‘Historic Brewing Convention’ to be held in England, in Europe - undeniably the historical beer region of the modern world - with a richly documented brewing heritage (culture!) going back centuries, and delegates will get a talk spinning beery yarns about the obscurity of kveik?

I have no idea what beef you have with the Norwegian fellow, but I know he has published or co-published peer-reviewed articles, so why should I consider your hyperbolic statements in this thread more than seeing him in person?

I missed him last year at the German homebrew convention, otherwise I would be able to judge him myself.

 

[McMullan]

I have no idea what beef you have with the Norwegian fellow, but I know he has published or co-published peer-reviewed articles, so why should I consider your hyperbolic statements in this thread more than seeing him in person?

I missed him last year at the German homebrew convention, otherwise I would be able to judge him myself.

I must have missed the ‘peer-reviewed’ articles. Not hypothetical phylogenies. I hope. I’m pretty familiar with Norway and its history, though. I highly recommend people at least try do their own research. They might even start to understand why, for example, kveik behave like distiller’s yeast. But I appreciate some people believe something just because it’s been published on a blog or elsewhere, without ever considering the validity of the claims presented. As a scientist, I’ve never considered lack of evidence to mean anything, but that’s me. I can’t admit to ever being a fan of con artistry or BS generally. I’ll gladly leave that to the hoodwinked who refuse to listen or need to believe in fantasies.

 

[Kent88]

Maybe we can all just let people like what they like and try not to yuck anyone's yum?

 

[Peebee]

Maybe we can all just let people like what they like and try not to yuck anyone's yum?

Ooooh, taking sides?

Well, as the person receiving the "Yuck" is also very good at dishing out the "Yuck" (to me! Without even knowing who I was or understanding what I was saying), so I know which side I'll take!

No-one seemed to leap to my defence back then. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/post-10315467 (he doesn't even spell my username correctly).

 

[Colindo]

(he doesn't even spell my username correctly).

Sorry about that. Can't edit the post anymore, unfortunately.

I just re-read the post and would like to state that my criticism, while not entirely objective, was at least backed by sources (in some cases sources we both used).

My apologies for the subjective part of the old post. I imagine it is not nice being told that one's posts are difficult to read. Please feel free to correct the assessments in my old post. I'm happy to listen.

 

[tracer bullet]

Ooooh, taking sides?

I take it as applying to everyone. Heck even me when I was about to try to say something similar but far less nicely.

We've got a fantastic forum with fantastic people who know a lot of things. We typically have great discussions. Let's keep it that way and not get frustrated and start to make things personal. Or seem that way even when they aren't intended as such.

 

[Kent88]

We're getting off topic. Let's move on.

 

[Peebee]

My apologies for the subjective part of the old post. I imagine it is not nice being told that one's posts are difficult to read. Please feel free to correct the assessments in my old post. I'm happy to listen.

Apology accepted.

My inaugural post on this forum was #5,311, but I never really went into "invert sugar" much. I did update the original thread on "Jims" UK forum including a brief summary (I never got around to a full one) which I can reproduce here. For convenience I was only referencing "Wikipedia" (a source which does attract some criticism at times):

... At the beginning of this very thread, I'm carefully caramelising Golden Syrup (dreaming up shortcuts to the process) to "recreate" historic Brewers' Invert Sugar.

Fortunately (hardly that!) an earlier bang-on-the-head lead me to doubt what I was doing and try and find evidence for it. I was in for a surprise! Even by mid-19th C. sugar refining was pretty primitive. A pound of white sugar was the reserve of the rich*. Some of whom actually owned the sugar plantations, and "owned" the slaves that toiled to keep them going. This was the environment from which came "Brewers' Invert Sugar". It was all about to change: The collapse (not "end"!) of slave labour and advancements in sugar refining beyond the primitive refining methods of old. Soon (late 19th, early 20th C.) it was to become feasible (financially) to look at "caramelisation" to provide a myriad of propriety brewing sugars.

But not before then! (The doubts in my head are obviously receding ... give me a few more months and I'll be as bigoted as the worst of my distractors).



I guess I need to assemble a (historical) summary of what I'm supporting so more are clear of what I claim? But that may be in to the New Year. Meanwhile, even Wikipedia can assemble some good guidance: Sugar Cane Mill (Wikipedia), Sugar refinery (Wikipedia), Jaggery (Wikipedia), and also Norbert Rillieux (American Chemical Society)

One thing you really need to note: The "Molasses" approach to "Brewers' Invert Sugar" if not massively different to the "caramelisation" approach, just the similarities are "incidental" and greatly more subtle with molasses. Even "Maillard reactions" will be occurring in "Molasses", but again, "incidentally", which is a good thing because "Maillard reactions" weren't described until early 20th C. (Maillard Reactions (Wikipedia). Alkaline conditions? Look out for the use of Lime (and heat) to clarify sugar cane juice.




[EDIT: *That's a bit of a deceptive statement: "White" sugar, in the form of large "loaves" were around in the 18th C. but wouldn't have been economical enough to use in place of barley malt in beer. The Victorian period saw granular sugar appear more widely. But again, was too expensive to chuck in beer. Brewers' Invert Sugar came from various stages of that 19 C. refining process (which was increasingly carried out on home soil), avoiding some of the later expensive refining steps, not least of which would be the drying <sic: That's not really the correct term, crytalising?> (invert syrups made more sense).

By the 20th C. advancements in (continuous) refining methods made white, highly refined, sugar the cheaper option and "brown" (less refined, "muscovado", etc.) the more expensive "exceptions". The old refining methods were no longer available for "Brewers' Invert Sugar", but it limped on as "emulations" for a while until the 1960s when most breweries had switched to using sucrose syrups and left just one manufacturer - Ragus - producing the small quantities of "emulated" Brewers' Invert Sugar that some breweries still used.]

...and...

Oooo ... there was something I didn't include in my sugar summary above: The LAW!

Ron Pattinson covers that with: British beer legislation 1802 - 1899 (barclayperkins.blogspot.com)

That appears to exclude any UK use of sugar in beer for most of the first half of the 19th C.

 

[Peebee]

FOOTNOTE (to my previous post):

And I haven't covered any slur to my "brown malt" ramblings! That's to come! Later. Perhaps as new thread as it (possibly) won't fit with the "what's your favorite recipe" title of this thread?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think we moved on from the "favourite recipe" part years ago...
This is now a "Brittish sugar and fermentation practises" thread, with the odd discussion about recipes and general authentic brewing practises/guidelines sprinkled in...

 

[eshea3]

RDWHHB.

It's just beer.

 

[Peebee]

RDWHHB.

It's just beer.

Bah! I hate it when people use initials of the words to spell new words (that I do not understand). I have to Google them (though it always amazes me when it comes back with an answer) ...

RELAX! I'm running out of home-brew, and I haven't got the replacements organised yet. And I haven't got me partner's Valentine card sorted yet. It is 14th Feb isn't it? And I've got all these other things to do before the World ends ...


Wait 'til I get this stuff on "Brown Malt" I've promised together. Even I think that's a bit wappy. Let's see how "relaxed" you are then!