English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Pennine]

I noticed this thread in the recent posts lists and figured I'd post the most recent iteration of my house ordinary bitter. There isn't a whole lot to talk about here, it's a bit of a paint-by-numbers bitter. I think the only interesting thing is my use of non-iodized table salt. I've been playing with non-iodized salt in all my beers for the past four years and this is my most aggressive use of non-iodized table salt in a bitter to date.

I'm fond of it. It trades off a bit of the sulfate dryness for a bit more roundness. It helps to integrate the flavors and slightly softens any rough edges in the ale. It took me four years to work my way up to 3g, it'll likely take me eight years to work my way up to 4g. Three grams seems about right for my water, but I'm sure that I'll eventually succumb to the homebrewer's curse and start chasing the dragon in pursuit of more perfect perfection. As things currently stand, I'm not sure where to go from here. This is a solid ordinary bitter. Rather than thinking about how to improve it, I should likely just enjoy it for what it is. But that's not how a homebrewer's brain works, right?
View attachment 878805

View attachment 878804

Looks fantastic and directionally like the landlord recipe.

Another question for the thread they mention they burtonize the water for Landlord. Is that like a 100 Ca and 300 sulfate or even higher?

 

[Bramling Cross]

Looks fantastic and directionally like the landlord recipe.

Another question for the thread they mention they burtonize the water for Landlord. Is that like a 100 Ca and 300 sulfate or even higher?

Something like that. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but it's absurd and I've never had any luck with it. Plus there were various wells and water treatments in play, so the old saw about Burtonizing your water requires some careful consideration--if not skepticism.

With that said, I'm approaching this as a guy that's trying to brew a good pint, rather than as an historian of brewing. I admire and enjoy the history side of things, but I don't follow it slavishly. My pint is my lodestar, not history. As such, anything I write must be read through the filters of my preferences regarding what a dumb Yank thinks is a nice, guzzle-able pint and the iterative methodology of my brewery (ie, historically correct stuff that doesn't taste good gets irreverently tossed over the transom).

 

[Halfakneecap]

I think TT is my favourite bitter. When i get it here. It actually seems to travel well too. I like dry, bitter bitters. I like brewing MO smash bitters with one hop variant too. Yum

EDIT, this weekend will be MO and Bramling Cross bitter.

 

[Miraculix]

Something like that. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but it's absurd and I've never had any luck with it. Plus there were various wells and water treatments in play, so the old saw about Burtonizing your water requires some careful consideration--if not skepticism.

With that said, I'm approaching this as a guy that's trying to brew a good pint, rather than as an historian of brewing. I admire and enjoy the history side of things, but I don't follow it slavishly. My pint is my lodestar, not history. As such, anything I write must be read through the filters of my preferences regarding what a dumb Yank thinks is a nice, guzzle-able pint and the iterative methodology of my brewery (ie, historically correct stuff that doesn't taste good gets irreverently tossed over the transom).

That's exactly my approach. And I can confirm also that I don't like too much "Burtonization". I've made experiments with elevated sulphate additions and the more it got, the less I liked it. I keep it in the range of 100 now and that's fine. I might check in the future if elevated chloride levels are nice to my palate.

 

[Miraculix]

Looks fantastic and directionally like the landlord recipe.

Another question for the thread they mention they burtonize the water for Landlord. Is that like a 100 Ca and 300 sulfate or even higher?

100ppm Ca is pretty much the lower end of the standard range for UK ales. 100ppm Ca aids yeast flocculation so I aim to get this as a minimum in every beer I brew.

300 ppm sulfate on the other hand is pretty high. I personally don't like that, but tastes certainly differ.

 

[Colindo]

I like using the water profile for Bitter that Murphy & Son recommend:

I never had issues flavour-wise with this profile, only once when I went to 600 ppm Sulfate did I notice the chalkiness of the gypsum. I have to warn you though, if you ferment under pressures, some yeasts can throw a lot of sulfites with this water.

In a brewery tour video from TT they said that they add additional gypsum in the copper, so my understanding would be to start with very soft or demineralised water, add as much gypsum as possible so that you mash pH is just in range, and then add more during the boil until it is almost too much. Hope that helps

 

[Shenanigans]

Interesting discussion about water treatment.
I usually do a 50/50 mix of CaCl2 and NaCl (table salt) to increase my Cl.
Nothing really scientific about it; it was just something I read on a forum when I was first getting into water treatment.
The author was saying when significantly increasing Cl he preferred to not add it all from one source.
Looking at it now, it's probably a good way to not add too much Ca or Na compared to using just one of them.
All depending on your starting water and your targeted finished water of course.

 

[Shenanigans]

I was looking into brewing a British golden ale.
Firstly I was going to brew a Crouch Vale Brewer's Gold.
However, Exmoor Gold keeps coming up in my searchs as one of the best Golden ales so I decided to go for that.
I have a recipe in one of Graham Wheeler's books but of course he dosn't suggest any yeast.
Looking around the internet every recipe seems to use a different yeast.
Anyone here know what yeast they use and/or which commerically available yeast would be closest?
I'm thinking WLP007 or S-04 or Whitbread 1099?

Thanks!

 

[Colindo]

Anyone here know what yeast they use and/or which commerically available yeast would be closest?

I have had it in the pub before, but cannot remember specifics. Without a sparkler the 38 IBU really packed a punch, more than the 45 of TT Landlord with a sparkler. Maybe nowadays I would be able to properly appreciate it.

You could probably write to the brewery and ask. But as a guess I would go for one of the really dry strains, WLP007, Wyeast 1098, or even Wyeast 1469.

 

[Shenanigans]

I have had it in the pub before, but cannot remember specifics. Without a sparkler the 38 IBU really packed a punch, more than the 45 of TT Landlord with a sparkler. Maybe nowadays I would be able to properly appreciate it.

You could probably write to the brewery and ask. But as a guess I would go for one of the really dry strains, WLP007, Wyeast 1098, or even Wyeast 1469.

Thanks, I think i will go with WLP007; it's been a while since I brewed with that.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Thanks, I think i will go with WLP007; it's been a while since I brewed with that.

I have a recipe brewed <not by me> and it calcs out to 69.64% attenuation, which points towards 1099 as that's within it's range. It would make sense, -less attenuation=more malty, requiring a higher IBU to balance out the beer.

 

[DuncB]

I like Wyeast 1099 nice yeast performs well, never managed to compare it to 1098. Ale yeast will do well in an ale.

 

[Colindo]

I have a recipe brewed <not by me> and it calcs out to 69.64% attenuation, which points towards 1099 as that's within it's range. It would make sense, -less attenuation=more malty, requiring a higher IBU to balance out the beer.

Hmm, curious. I used WLP007 several times last winter and it always gave me 80% or even more. It's quite a beast that does not hesitate at all when switching to maltotriose. To me it ferments the same way as Nottingham does.

 

[Shenanigans]

I have a recipe brewed <not by me> and it calcs out to 69.64% attenuation, which points towards 1099 as that's within it's range. It would make sense, -less attenuation=more malty, requiring a higher IBU to balance out the beer.

Good point, I never thought about calculating the expected attenuation to decide on the yeast.
In the recipe book the OG is 1.045 and the estimated FG is 1.010 so the apparent attenuation would be 77%.
The information given from a yeast company isn't always correct but that would be signifficantly higher than the apparent attenuation of 68 - 72% on their website for Whitbread 1099 and WLP007 might attenuate a bit too high.
I have a pack of Liberty Bell which I wasn't sure what to brew with.
MJ say that has an attenuation of 74 - 78% and I have read on another forum that someone used it for this recipe and was happy with it.

Anyway I won't be brewing until Autumn/Fall so I'll see what I'll do then.

 

[Colindo]

@Shenanigans I recently brewed a beer with Wyeast 1028 London Ale and got exactly 78% attenuation. Might be the right yeast for you. I haven't tasted the new batch yet, but remember from previously that it was a mild, malt-accentuating strain.

 

[Miraculix]

Good point, I never thought about calculating the expected attenuation to decide on the yeast.
In the recipe book the OG is 1.045 and the estimated FG is 1.010 so the apparent attenuation would be 77%.
The information given from a yeast company isn't always correct but that would be signifficantly higher than the apparent attenuation of 68 - 72% on their website for Whitbread 1099 and WLP007 might attenuate a bit too high.
I have a pack of Liberty Bell which I wasn't sure what to brew with.
MJ say that has an attenuation of 74 - 78% and I have read on another forum that someone used it for this recipe and was happy with it.

Anyway I won't be brewing until Autumn/Fall so I'll see what I'll do then.

Mj Liberty bell is an ok yeast. It is not great and not bad, it is ok. If the recipe and process is good, the beer from it will be good as well. As you are going to make a starter with it, it will likely enhance the yeast's characteristics in a good way.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Hmm, curious. I used WLP007 several times last winter and it always gave me 80% or even more. It's quite a beast that does not hesitate at all when switching to maltotriose. To me it ferments the same way as Nottingham does.

Mash temp. Higher=less attenuation. lower is more. Say 156-57F to get 70% attenuation for a voracious yeast , the software should get you in the ballpark.

 

[Colindo]

Mash temp. Higher=less attenuation. lower is more. Say 156-57F to get 70% attenuation for a voracious yeast , the software should get you in the ballpark.

Far too much simplification. It depends on what type of dextrins you create and what your yeast can digest. For a highly attenuating yeast such as WLP007, attenuation stays at maximum right up to 72°C/162°F because the surplus of maltotriose is still digestable. It just takes longer for fermentation to finish.

Also there's something that I stated elsewhere before regarding mash temperature. This is the reality from a recent paper:


And the green line here is what happens when someone who does not understand the interaction between enzymes tries to give fermentability depending on temperature:



So it really is not

Higher=less attenuation. lower is more.

 

[corncob]

There's also the complications related to time and particle size. The mash is a complex thing. (consider the hoch hurz mash regimen)

And then there's the complicated way in which the taster perceives what the yeast leave behind: a wort produced in the beta regime fermented by a low-attenuating yeast makes a different beer from a wort produced in the alpha regime fermented by a high-attenuating yeast, even if the measured apparent attenuation ends up being the same number.

 

[Shenanigans]

@Shenanigans I recently brewed a beer with Wyeast 1028 London Ale and got exactly 78% attenuation. Might be the right yeast for you. I haven't tasted the new batch yet, but remember from previously that it was a mild, malt-accentuating strain.

Thanks, I have also seen 1335 british ale yeast ii suggested here:



I don't have either so it will be WLP007, Liberty Bell or S-04

On another note it looks like the brewery's original site is sadly being closed and they will brew their beers soon by hiring out another brewery's equipment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr5d97ylnyvo

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks, I have also seen 1335 british ale yeast ii suggested here:



I don't have either so it will be WLP007, Liberty Bell or S-04

On another note it looks like the brewery's original site is sadly being closed and they will brew their beers soon by hiring out another brewery's equipment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr5d97ylnyvo

Really sad news about Exmoor brewery, I love the beers especially Gold, but Stag and Beast are also very good.

 

[Shenanigans]

Really sad news about Exmoor brewery, I love the beers especially Gold, but Stag and Beast are also very good.

Well in another article it says they will continue to brew the same beers at a different location with the same brewer and yeast. So the beers shouldn't disappear but if using a new system they might be a bit different until he gets his process down.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Far too much simplification. It depends on what type of dextrins you create and what your yeast can digest. For a highly attenuating yeast such as WLP007, attenuation stays at maximum right up to 72°C/162°F because the surplus of maltotriose is still digestable. It just takes longer for fermentation to finish.

Also there's something that I stated elsewhere before regarding mash temperature. This is the reality from a recent paper:
View attachment 878939

And the green line here is what happens when someone who does not understand the interaction between enzymes tries to give fermentability depending on temperature:
View attachment 878942


So it really is not

Oh! Well.......... Nevermind.

 

[Pennine]

Has anyone used Llalemand New England in a bitter recipe? Thoughts if so?

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_NEWENGLAND_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

 

[Colindo]

Has anyone used Llalemand New England in a bitter recipe? Thoughts if so?

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_NEWENGLAND_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

I was wondering whether that is the Conan strain, but I'm not sure. If it is, it would be of British origin. This site here, which is sometimes very detailed but some other times wildly inaccurate, lists it as such

 

[HM-2]

I think New England is Conan or a derivative thereof. So very much British in origin.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Has anyone used Llalemand New England in a bitter recipe? Thoughts if so?

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_NEWENGLAND_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

1) "Oh, wow! Finally, a new UK dried strain. Finally, a great dried UK strain! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?!

2) (One month later) #(%*@#@!!!!

3) (Two years later) Oh, wow! Finaly, a new UK dried strain, what took them so long...

4) (Thirty years later) A new dried UK strain, really?! Are we doing this again?! I can't be bothered.

 

[ba-brewer]

An interesting experience using White Labs WLP037 Yorkshire Square yeast. They’d recently released this year’s batch, I’d never used before so jumped on the chance. Mostly I’ve used Wyeast’s 1469, and genuinely love it. But 037 is impressive. I had slated a FG around 1.015. I reached that 4 days ago, but have let it sit in the fermenter to settle out. It has lowered down to 1.010-1.012 in that time (the Tilt hydrometer waffling back and forth). It was a Landlord-ish clone but is now starting to look like a Landlord strong bitter!

@HighlandTap Same for me, I also recently used it for the first time. Did a parti-gyle with a NEIPA and an Ordinary Bitter. It fermented quick and dropped very clear, lovely behaviour. I had 82% attenuation in both beers.

I only tasted the NEIPA so far but it gave a very pleasing fruity complexity and reduced any harsh components from dry-hopping to none. It is now recommended by White Labs for very hoppy beers because of its capability to release thiols.

Curious if either or you had built a starter with this release of the wlp037 yeast? Did the yeast stay clumpy or did disperse throughout the starter medium? One last question did you get any phenolic aroma or flavor?

I just built a starter and this years yeast and it is behaving different from past years releases. In the past the yeast would stay in clumps that looked like small jelly doughnuts but this year it dispersed throughout the medium. It was also slow to clear instead of dropping like a rock when I removed it from the stirplate.

I also did not get any phenolic aroma from the starter like I had in the past. I tasted the starter beer and it had a slight phenolic flavor though but not as strong as it had in the past.

 

[Colindo]

@ba-brewer Not sure how it was in the starter, but in all three beers I brewed so far it dropped like a rock. Quick and solid flocculation. In some cases a lack of nutrients can change the physical properties of yeast, so maybe give it some yeast nutrients?

I believe the strain is not supposed to be phenolic. I did not get any.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I was wondering whether that is the Conan strain, but I'm not sure. If it is, it would be of British origin.

What Lallemand did with New England was take two beers from different British craft breweries made with members of the Conan family, mix them together, and then culture something up from the blend as a way of dodging IP issues.

Conans tend to be a bit problematic as they are mostly cultured up from the very stressed dregs of Heady Topper cans, and also New England doesn't like being dried - at the time Conan was THE yeast everyone wanted so Lallemand put up with it, but the viability is way less than their other strains, their minimum cell count is 20% for NE versus their others.

I believe the strain is not supposed to be phenolic. I did not get any.

WLP037 is one of only three Beer2 (saison family) strains among White Labs British yeasts, and one of two that are POF+ (which gives brewers a vastly distorted view of what British yeasts are really like, around 40% of the standard Brewlab list mention phenolics to some extent). General experience here is that it's very strongly phenolic, but generous oxygenation seems to keep it under control. Wiper And True even made a commercial "Yorkshire saison" with it, it sounds like the new release is a very different beast to what it's been in the past.

 

[Colindo]

@Northern_Brewer Thanks, lots of good info. Regarding POF+, first of all I find it quite annoying that WLP does not state POF positivity on their website. Wyeast is much more thorough at that.
Second it may well be that with my process I get very little phenolics in general. When I used W-100 (potentially Theakston's) I got nothing at first but in a wheat beer it produced tons of clove. Not the nice peppery phenolics though that I get in Harvey's beers.

PS: If you read the highlighted part of the updated description by White Labs it still sounds as if WLP037 is POF-.

From our research, creating WLP077 Tropicale Yeast Blend. We found WLP037 Yorkshire Square Ale Yeast and WLP830 German Lager Yeast to have a relative high potential activity for beta-lyase biotransformation. Beta-lyase activity releases bound thiols from hops (sulfur-based compounds) into free thiols (passionfruit and guava aromas). While there were other high-activity strains, most of these strains were POF+ or phenolic which overpowered the tropical flavors.

 

[Shenanigans]

Gozdawa also have a dry version of Conan.

https://www.gozdawa.biz/de_DE/p/Gozdawa-Bierhefe-U.S.-East-Coast-01-Conan-10g-USEC01/280

I can't say exactly what it is but I brewed an old school NEIPA inspired by Heady Topper with it and it turned out nice.
No fermentation issues or off flavours, others on another forum have been happy with it too.

I never used any other type of Conan so coudn't compare and with all the hops in that beer difficult to tell what it contributed.
I must try a split batch English ale and compare it to a yeast I know better.
The WLP095 description says it can be used in a Porter so I'll try a Meantime porter and compare to WLP007

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/can-you-brew-it-recipe-for-meantime-porter.239374/

One of my favourite all-time non-IPA homebrew recipes.

 

[Pennine]

What Lallemand did with New England was take two beers from different British craft breweries made with members of the Conan family, mix them together, and then culture something up from the blend as a way of dodging IP issues.

Conans tend to be a bit problematic as they are mostly cultured up from the very stressed dregs of Heady Topper cans, and also New England doesn't like being dried - at the time Conan was THE yeast everyone wanted so Lallemand put up with it, but the viability is way less than their other strains, their minimum cell count is 20% for NE versus their others.

WLP037 is one of only three Beer2 (saison family) strains among White Labs British yeasts, and one of two that are POF+ (which gives brewers a vastly distorted view of what British yeasts are really like, around 40% of the standard Brewlab list mention phenolics to some extent). General experience here is that it's very strongly phenolic, but generous oxygenation seems to keep it under control. Wiper And True even made a commercial "Yorkshire saison" with it, it sounds like the new release is a very different beast to what it's been in the past.

They sourced it from two British breweries that were likely using a liquid version of Conan? That's interesting.

 

[Pennine]

1) "Oh, wow! Finally, a new UK dried strain. Finally, a great dried UK strain! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?!

2) (One month later) #(%*@#@!!!!

3) (Two years later) Oh, wow! Finaly, a new UK dried strain, what took them so long...

4) (Thirty years later) A new dried UK strain, really?! Are we doing this again?! I can't be bothered.

Guess I'll be making an American pale. It makes a fantastic beer when used with Citra and Eukanot.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I’m going to buy some and use for a bitter, probably a Butty Bach clone.

 

[ba-brewer]

@ba-brewer Not sure how it was in the starter, but in all three beers I brewed so far it dropped like a rock. Quick and solid flocculation. In some cases a lack of nutrients can change the physical properties of yeast, so maybe give it some yeast nutrients?

thanks for the information @Colindo. I do have nutrients in the starter wort but might be something to looking into. The pouch was within a few weeks of best by date but that is normally not a problem.

I pitched the yeast from the starter and it is cranking away and so far I am not getting any phenolic aromas. I will see next week if it drops clears or not.

PS: If you read the highlighted part of the updated description by White Labs it still sounds as if WLP037 is POF-.

The information for WLP037 has changed over time, it used to be listed as POF+ and I believe it was listed as STA1 positive too but that got removed after they did a upgrade to their webpage a few years backs. The attenuation I got from the yeast in the past was higher than what was listed on the webpage too.

 

[Colindo]

@ba-brewer Not sure how WLP measures attenuation, since I always get more than they state.

 

[Pennine]

1) "Oh, wow! Finally, a new UK dried strain. Finally, a great dried UK strain! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?! What took them so long?!

2) (One month later) #(%*@#@!!!!

3) (Two years later) Oh, wow! Finaly, a new UK dried strain, what took them so long...

4) (Thirty years later) A new dried UK strain, really?! Are we doing this again?! I can't be bothered.

I don't know what you are talking about look at the all the options

 

[Miraculix]

I don't know what you are talking about look at the all the options

View attachment 880224

None of them compares well to the good liquid options I'm afraid...

 

[Halfakneecap]

None of them compares well to the good liquid options I'm afraid...

I agree, except for Verdant. I really like it, but the rest, i find not as good as the liquid strains. Just lacking character in comparison for my taste