English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[DuncB]

For what I remember, there's a strong difference between the making of Belgian Candi syrup and British invert. The Belgian one is done without acid and with the addition of nitrogen in various forms to promote maillard reactions and the British is made with acid to invert the sugar.

But I might remember it wrong.

I think you are right according to this thread, I think previously mentioned somewhere earlier.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/Worth a read @Colindo

 

[TheMadKing]

Okay, I was thinking something was off with your reasoning in the earlier post, but dear lord!

care to elaborate or just tossing out vague insults?

 

[cire]

@cire Thanks for the info. Any chance that you have a source for this pH? The historic papers all just say "it is neutralised".

Ragus. Somewhere in their website was a description of the processes they used. Whether it is still there is in doubt as it appears they no longer produce in bulk the 25kg blocks of Brewer's Invert 1, 2 and 3. The latest I saw advised they made Brewer's Invert to order for British and Belgian brewers, "Custom Formulations". I am finding most of the links that provided details of their processes are no longer accessible, but this one does give the information on neutralization you asked.
https://www.ragus.co.uk/product/invert-sugar-syrup/
I'd be careful what you read about early inverts, there was at least one case where a brewery in Manchester used invert sugar manufactured in Gargrave near Liverpool, that killed a number of heavy drinkers.

Invert sugar manufacturing was what brought Mr Tate and Mr Lyle together in business.

There are several ways of making invert sugar, invertase is an enzyme that will convert sucrose to glucose and fructose at room temperature, but takes many hours.
Inversion takes place with heat alone, but is time-taking. It can be done more quickly or with less heat by acidification. Ragus acidify to pH 1.6 and keep at 70C, and while stirring continually, take samples until full conversion, when it is neutralized to stop the process and avoid further chemical changes.

I invert at pH 2.2 at a light simmer for 5 to 15 minutes. Like Ragus, use 2:1 ratio sucrose:water by weight. At this ratio, the sugar goes fully into suspension, but not fully dissolved so the mixture is quite hazy. Stirring makes the solution clarify seconds after adding the requisite amount of acid, showing conversion is underway. As the mixture reaches a simmer, another 5 to a maximum of 10% of sugars can be added, some of which will also invert. A 10% addition will likely result in some crystallization of the final product, while lesser amounts will remain liquid and clear when cooled. This is quite imperfect when compared to the way Ragus work, but it does do the job. It is so simple a process that I would advise a first attempt is done using all white refined sugar, even if only on a small scale. Observe the sugar going into solution and clearing when the acid is added. Then look for a slight change in colour to pale straw/yellow when inversion completes. Knowing this process enables timing of inverting or adding darker sugars.

With soft or RO water, 1kg or 2 pounds of sugar will require a good level teaspoonful of citric acid. For alkaline water, add a well heaped teaspoonful. I add acid when the mixture reaches 70C. 2gm of sodium bicarbonate should be enough to neutralize to pH 5 or thereabout.

Few British breweries now include sugars in their recipes, it is too expensive compared to the cost of malted grains. Those can't make the same beers as sugars can.

 

[Colindo]

care to elaborate or just tossing out vague insults?

Sorry, I was really gobsmacked by your statement. This was the first thing that came up on google: Phenolic English strains?

 

[TheMadKing]

Sorry, I was really gobsmacked by your statement. This was the first thing that came up on google: Phenolic English strains?

You misunderstood my statement. I did not say all british yeasts are POF- and cannot produce phenolics.

I said phenolic flavors in british style beer is a flaw whereas it is not in many (most?) Belgian styles. Sorry I wasn't clear

 

[Colindo]

Worth a read @Colindo

Nice stuff. I have seen many different recipes for Belgian syrups since they seem to be significantly more popular. They use a range of additions and also quite different temperatures so all kind of processes could happen in there.

@cire You link says they start at a pH between five and six, invert at pH=1.6 and then "neutralise it". No specifics given there. But I did learn that Ragus is 'sugar' spelled backwards. Never noticed.
Also thanks for your recipe, sounds properly systematic. I observed the same effects when I did my sugars.

 

[Colindo]

@TheMadKing Ah, now I see where you are coming from. Sorry again for my earlier statement. I guess you are referring to things like open fermentation that keep the production of phenolics at a minimum? Schneider Weiße do the same for their phenolic wheat beer.

I must say I found the peppery aromas in the beers from the two breweries I tried, Harvey's and Sambrook's, quite pronounced. But of course Belgian saisons are much stronger in that regard.

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing Ah, now I see where you are coming from. Sorry again for my earlier statement. I guess you are referring to things like open fermentation that keep the production of phenolics at a minimum? Schneider Weiße do the same for their phenolic wheat beer.

I must say I found the peppery aromas in the beers from the two breweries I tried, Harvey's and Sambrook's, quite pronounced. But of course Belgian saisons are much stronger in that regard.

No I was more just trying to highlight the difference between belgian and british beers. I was arguing that yeast more than the differences between the two types of sugars is responsible for the difference.

They both use sugars and can have relatively similar malt bills, so if you took a british recipe and fermented with a belgian yeast you would get a beer that most tasters would call "belgian", wheras if you took a belgian recipe and fermented it with an english yeast you would get a beer most tasters would call "british"

My point is that you can make a perfectly passable bitter using Belgian sugars if you want to. It's certainly not "authentic" and might be perceptible to a few experts, but the majority would likely be unable to tell the difference.

 

[Colindo]

But... if many of the yeasts are very similar... then it would depend on how you ferment. Not on which yeast strain you use.

 

[huckdavidson]

I'd be careful what you read about early inverts, there was at least one case where a brewery in Manchester used invert sugar manufactured in Gargrave near Liverpool, that killed a number of heavy drinkers.

How did this particular invert sugar contribute to the deaths of the heavy drinkers?

 

[cire]

@cire You link says they start at a pH between five and six, invert at pH=1.6 and then "neutralise it". No specifics given there. But I did learn that Ragus is 'sugar' spelled backwards. Never noticed.
Also thanks for your recipe, sounds properly systematic. I observed the same effects when I did my sugars.

Sorry, yes, your observation is correct, but when seeing pH 5, I assumed it was the original text, but is not.

Can I suggest that should you neutralize your invert to pH 7 or higher, limit its shelf life to less than Ragus suggest and recognize the potential impact on copper finings effectiveness if added in large quantity to a boil.

How did this particular invert sugar contribute to the deaths of the heavy drinkers?

The sulfuric acid used for inversion contained arsenic and the residue got into the beer. Several of the deaths were traced back to drinking beer from one particular brewery.

It's getting very difficult to find much accurate history of Britain's activities, past and present in current internet offerings, but maybe that is true of other places too. However, there is a wiki page on this matter with potentially more inaccuracies than truths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_English_beer_poisoning
A worker at the same sugar works who stirred the sugar syrup from a platform above the boiler, fell into the vessel on another occasion.

Beer was blamed for many problems in the civilized world during this period. Not just the temperance movement put the cause to excessive drinking, the law might also approve such a cause to resolve an otherwise uncomfortable problem.

 

[cire]

But... if many of the yeasts are very similar... then it would depend on how you ferment. Not on which yeast strain you use.

Temperature can and does make a big difference to the finished beer, but some yeasts produce phenolic characters in the beers they make. My last but one brew was done with a yeast from Harvey's in Lewes, Sussex, and it produces a distinct snatch that their beers are renowned for. A higher temperature will likely increase the phenols, but a non-phenolic yeast will, when used at higher temperature, usually produce higher alcohols without a phenolic snatch.

Yeasts may be similar in characteristics observed, but are not not the same in many different ways as found in the finished article. I use only British sourced yeasts, so maybe US originating yeasts may be different.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert

Please can you stop abusing one of the great company names? It's not Regus (which is an serviced office company, like WeWork I guess), but Ragus. As in...well, just try writing backwards (or "inverting" you might call it) the word "Ragus"....

How did this particular invert sugar contribute to the deaths of the heavy drinkers?

Nothing to do with the sugar as such, it was contaminated with arsenic from the sulphuric acid that was used for inversion. My speculation is that it is the origin of Manchester's preference for pale beer as typified by Boddies, they were wanting to emphasise how "pure" it was.

You misunderstood my statement. I did not say all british yeasts are POF- and cannot produce phenolics.

I said phenolic flavors in british style beer is a flaw whereas it is not in many (most?) Belgian styles. Sorry I wasn't clear

Phenolics are present in some of the greatest beers of Britain, it's just not correct to say that they're a flaw.

They may not be at Belgian levels, "process" such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics, but they are present and enhance the "Britishness" of the beers that use those yeasts.

 

[ba-brewer]

such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics,

This always puzzles me as a starter of phenolic yeast on a stir plate still smells phenolic.

 

[DBhomebrew]

This always puzzles me as a starter of phenolic yeast on a stir plate still smells phenolic.

Maybe 'saccharomyces' (Shaken-Not-Stirred) isn't far off in his argument that E flasks aren't great for aeration?

 

[ba-brewer]

I use a cylindrical beaker with a loose cover of foil.

 

[TheMadKing]

Please can you stop abusing one of the great company names? It's not Regus (which is an serviced office company, like WeWork I guess), but Ragus. As in...well, just try writing backwards (or "inverting" you might call it) the word "Ragus"....


Nothing to do with the sugar as such, it was contaminated with arsenic from the sulphuric acid that was used for inversion. My speculation is that it is the origin of Manchester's preference for pale beer as typified by Boddies, they were wanting to emphasise how "pure" it was.

Phenolics are present in some of the greatest beers of Britain, it's just not correct to say that they're a flaw.

They may not be at Belgian levels, "process" such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics, but they are present and enhance the "Britishness" of the beers that use those yeasts.

Thanks for the correction on both accounts!

I've been to the UK on 6 occasions and never had a beer that had that kind of character. I would love to find one next time

 

[Miraculix]

.

 

[Colindo]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

 

[cire]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

Thank you. Can you give that link as I can't presently locate that video.

 

[Miraculix]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

 

[Colindo]

Thank you. Can you give that link as I can't presently locate that video.

You gave it to me earlier Golden syrup - Pure genius in the making - Ragus

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

Yeah, mine is also old now. Wouldn't say it has changed either.

 

[Brewskey]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

I also have 1 year old invert with very little if any change.

 

[cire]

You gave it to me earlier Golden syrup - Pure genius in the making - Ragus

Yes, but that is the one for Golden Syrup, not Brewer's Invert Sugar. There was a similar video for Brewer's Invert Blocks, where the sugar was inverted in the same pans, but with various extracts from cane sugar added to produce the range of grades, which was as I recall, neutralized to pH 5. The syrup was then poured into lined, rectangular, cardboard containers, and seeded with corn sugar (glucose/dextrose) to cause the syrup to crystalize and solidify.

I believe that would be the foreign matter that PeeBee referred to, as it came from maize. All other matter was cane sugar with water and hydrochloric acid. Later the acid was mostly neutralized from pH 1.6 to 5.0 by sodium (bi)carbonate to form common salt.

Golden Syrup is made for bakers, Brewer's Invert for brewers..

 

[user 246304]

Right, but doing so with turbinado starts at ~#3. If you're looking for #2 let alone #1, turbinado starts too dark.

It doesn't bother me at all. If the recipe calls for #1 or #2 I do exactly as you say, but accept that my beer might be a bit darker than intended.

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

 

[Miraculix]

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

I would say that it depends on the turbinado. Mine starts at no 1. A colour like golden syrup, just a bit lighter

 

[Brewskey]

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.

 

[user 246304]

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.
View attachment 834531

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.
View attachment 834531

That first one looks like the stuff I use as a base as well. Blending it with demarara or dark muscuvado is also what I am doing for darker syrups. Or for really dark invert, I use the dark sugar on it's own. I usually only use this dark sugar only syrup for dark beers and beers that need to age some time anyway.

 

[user 246304]

That first one looks like the stuff I use as a base as well. Blending it with demarara or dark muscuvado is also what I am doing for darker syrups. Or for really dark invert, I use the dark sugar on it's own. I usually only use this dark sugar only syrup for dark beers and beers that need to age some time anyway.

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.