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I think I'll be trying 100% First Gold in the next one. See what happens.

One reason I tend to brew a small number of recipes (10-ish total) again and again is so that I can tweak the recipe each time and learn the ingredients. Looks like ESB #8 will be no different in that regard!

Thank you everyone for the input!
 
@kmarkstevens For that you need to take into account that Fuller's uses a constant amount of yeast (ml yeast per hectolitre) which means that the actual pitching rate (ml yeast per hectolitre per gravity) varies among their brews. The Chiswick Bitter has roughly double the pitching rate of the ESB, thereby reducing esters significantly.

This is mentioned in this podcast from minute 23 on: Brew Strong - Questions with Fuller's Part 2 | The Brewing Network
 
@kmarkstevens For that you need to take into account that Fuller's uses a constant amount of yeast (ml yeast per hectolitre) which means that the actual pitching rate (ml yeast per hectolitre per gravity) varies among their brews. The Chiswick Bitter has roughly double the pitching rate of the ESB, thereby reducing esters significantly.
Interesting- I've definitely got marmalade from WLP002 fermenter beers of moderate abv but I've always assumed it was First Gold related.

I have found it less prominent in other English ales I've brewed, which usually use Nottingham, 007 or blended copitches for a better balance of residual sweetness and ABV above 6.5%, but always assumed that has been down to lower hopping rates per % abv.

Maybe I'll have to try a 2:1 002/007 blend?
 
WLP007 also generates orange flavours. In my opinion even more than WLP002, though I have not yet had time for a proper direct comparison. I had beers from the brewery Wold Top recently which are full of orange marmelade flavours and they gave WLP007 as their yeast.

My Fuller's parti-gyle clones with the yeast propagated from bottles of Bengal Lancer had some marmelade, particularly the ESB, but it was more complex and had some honey notes, while WLP007 seemed cleaner pure orange.

These experiences also led me to believe that S-04 is the same strain as WLP007, just with less attenuation, just like US-05 has less attenuation than WLP001. S-04, used after a few propagations, gives the same clean orange as WLP007 and I've done a nice Fuller's ESB clone with it when I had nothing else at hand.
 
Interesting! So you are thinking I’m getting earthy from the EKG? I don’t normally see it as a descriptor but you may be right.
You shouldn't normally get earthy from EKG, no matter what Hopslist say, but all British hops can go a bit earthy in vintages where there's not enough sun in August. 2016 was the really bad year for that when everything came out like Fuggles.

My usual vintage calibration of vintages has been disrupted by lockdowns but from memory 2021 wasn't great so that might be it if they're from that year.

If you want marmalade from hops, then you want First Gold, ideally from a sunny year - 2022 should be OK in that regard...

Marmalade should come largely from the Fuller's yeast. I find the Imperial Yeast "Pub" fullers strain to be superior to WLP002 or the Wyeast equivalent. (I have a fuller's cultured from the bottle, but haven't brewed with it yet.)

First Gold also has a description for Marmalade.

@Northern_Brewer Can you flesh out the marmalade flavor in more detail please?
Not sure there's much to say - Fuller's has it, WLP002 and 1968 don't really IME, they seem to be just fairly generic Whitbread-family yeasts. It was a shame my usual source had run out of ESB ahead of my last trip, I'll try and remember to bring some next time.
 
If you want marmalade from hops, then you want First Gold, ideally from a sunny year - 2022 should be OK in that regard...
Thanks. I recall from a similar discussion a while back that my First Gold hops are 2019, and you mentioned it being a cloudy year. Seems to be the only First Gold hops I'm able to buy. And no Bramling Cross options either.

I'm a bit stuck with fewer options than I would like.
 
Thanks. I recall from a similar discussion a while back that my First Gold hops are 2019, and you mentioned it being a cloudy year. Seems to be the only First Gold hops I'm able to buy. And no Bramling Cross options either.

I'm a bit stuck with fewer options than I would like.
Admiral could be an option, I've had some orange zest from them...

"Admiral Hops are a high alpha English bittering hop that has a resinous orange marmalade citrus aroma."


https://www.brookhousehops.com/shop/hops/uk-hops/admiral/
 
Nice to know. I have some Admiral at hand but have only used it for bittering so far. Unfortunately those descriptions never tell you the timing required to get that aroma.
Flame-out or a 170F-150F whirlpool. A lot depends on your system and practices. My IC goes from boil to 108F in 3 minutes, which is really too fast for good aroma extraction so I have to either take a break after flame-out and adjust the rest of my hop schedule to compensate, or whirlpool. I usually choose to whirlpool but it is really hard with my chiller to nail the timing so I get it close then adjust the length of my whirlpool accordingly.

You can also retain more aroma by fermenting at the lower end of your yeasts tolerance and/or by fermenting under pressure. It will take some experimentation on your system, but in the meantime you are making BEER!
 
Thanks for the tip, but that really does not sound like a specific information on how to retain orange marmelade aroma from Admiral. Might be late boil addition that gives this, might be dry-hop, might be anywhere in-between. Or not at all, if the description just gives the aroma from the raw hop and it is always washed out by CO2...
 
Thanks for the tip, but that really does not sound like a specific information on how to retain orange marmelade aroma from Admiral. Might be late boil addition that gives this, might be dry-hop, might be anywhere in-between. Or not at all, if the description just gives the aroma from the raw hop and it is always washed out by CO2...
Nah, Admiral is pretty reliably orangey, although it's a somewhat different orange to First Gold, bit lighter and fresher. Orange is one of those flavours that's not that volatile, so it's more about the late boil and whirlpool than dry hopping.

Target is another one that can give orange although it's more associated with bittering. Challenger isn't normally but can be super-orangey in a really sunny vintage.

But First Gold would always be my first choice in that line.
 
@Northern_Brewer Thanks a lot! Will have to do some tests, because I have all those hops here but have not used them much yet. First Gold only in the last 10 minutes and was quite underwhelmed. Target is the one I used often so far, and for me it seems to give a very clean lemon flavour, both in Whirlpool and in the dry-hop, though the dry-hop is grassier. Challenger and Admiral only for bittering so far.
 
I have stopped using target now, I find it gets pretty harsh at over 40 IBUs. I used to use it a lot, but honestly prefer something like UK Challenger. I'd like to try Boedecia or Pilot for bittering in future.
 
I did find a store (hophero.com) that seems legit and shows both Challenger and Admiral in stock. I've got some unopened First Gold already on hand. I think I'll plan to do 100% First Gold and see how it goes. One or both Challenger or Admiral (Probably Admiral) would be next. I'll continue to resist the urge to throw some bagged orange peel in it!
 
Challenger the bittering hop I use aswell, I find it gives a clean, round biterness suited for a lot of beer styles. Also nice as a flavour/aroma hop.
Thanks for that info...I accidentally doubled my Challenger order from YVH and now I have 32oz of it to use up. I love English ales but I wondered how long it would take me to go through that much. Cheers!
 
@Erik the Anglophile, how are you finding the Simpson's Vienna?
I have 2 beers that I won't be able to taste until coming autumn sometime that are using it...
But I took a first pint from a Red Ale yesterday that had a 50/50 mix of GP and Vienna.
It definitely had a more pronounced grainy, malty sweet-ish flavour with toasty breadiness, malty base flavour but just "beefier" and more of it if that makes sense?
Took a sample of my porter that will be kegged tonight and the same thing there, it seems to do what you expect a mild malt to do.
Gonna brew a mild loosely based on Ron's 1952 Lee's best mild soon, using all Simpson Vienna as base.
 
@Northern_Brewer Thanks a lot! Will have to do some tests, because I have all those hops here but have not used them much yet. First Gold only in the last 10 minutes and was quite underwhelmed. Target is the one I used often so far, and for me it seems to give a very clean lemon flavour, both in Whirlpool and in the dry-hop, though the dry-hop is grassier. Challenger and Admiral only for bittering so far.
Don't get too carried away with Challenger, it only seems to go really orange in the very sunny years - so 2018 and 2022. Whereas Admiral is fairly reliable.
I have stopped using target now, I find it gets pretty harsh at over 40 IBUs. I used to use it a lot, but honestly prefer something like UK Challenger. I'd like to try Boedecia or Pilot for bittering in future.
It's a classic matter of taste, half of people like a raspy bitterness, half don't. People get a bit obsessed with "smooth" bitterness but personally I like a bit of rasp, I think there's a fair argument for the Fuller's approach of using Target in a blend for bittering. Not that the style of bittering has anything to do with how the hop manifests as an aroma hop of course.

If you want smooth bittering from British hops, then Admiral is the obvious choice, with Pilgrim between Admiral and Target.

Must admit I'm not a big fan of Boadicea - M&S used to do a single-hop beer with her but it looks like no longer, it was far too Fuggles-earthy for my taste. Really interesting from an agronomic POV though, as the first aphid-resistant hop and for being the first to break the tight linkage between dwarfing and high selinene, she's going to be an important ancestor for breeding.
 
Well, F**k me dead. Made my first ale from Fuller's yeast reconstituted from a bottle that @Northern_Brewer "smuggled" in to the US of A.

First off, Fullers from the bottle does not clump together like cottage cheese such as WLP002 / WY1968 / Pub do. These three all clump, look like a snow globe on the stir plate after they get going and flocculate out as you watch in real time.

Not so the reconstituted Fullers. Very powdery and an overnight cold crash didn't make it 100% clear. Here's a photo of the stir plate (I poured off 80% for the brew this morning and building it back up). Absolutely no snow globe/flying cottage cheese effect:
1682304017543.jpeg


Krasen after ~8 hours @70F (opaque speidel so can really see the activity):
1682304059356.jpeg


Grain bill:
8# maris
1# torrified wheat
1/2# biscuit
First gold hops for a BUGU 1:1 ratio more or less (my scale broke, so I had to eyeball the hop additions.

Looking forward to tasting for marmalade. ;)
 
@kmarkstevens
"Krasen after ~8 hours @70F (opaque speidel so can really see the activity):"

I think I can see the activity, not sure where the opaque would allow me to see activity?

But it looks like you are building a good barm there.
 
@DuncB To be more clear. Photo is a top shot after taking off the air lock. Speidels are opaque, so not able to take a photo from the side to show what yeast action maybe going on inside.

But, yes, Barm building time. ;)
 
I have stopped using target now, I find it gets pretty harsh at over 40 IBUs. I used to use it a lot, but honestly prefer something like UK Challenger. I'd like to try Boedecia or Pilot for bittering in future.
Pilgrim is well worth a crack imo. Pilot and Boadicea quite hard to get hold of these days here in the UK via home brew sellers. Both still in production I think.
 
First off, Fullers from the bottle does not clump together like cottage cheese such as WLP002 / WY1968 / Pub do. These three all clump, look like a snow globe on the stir plate after they get going and flocculate out as you watch in real time.
When I recently propagated the yeast sediment of a bottle of Fuller's Bengal Lancer (here called India Pale Ale), I found the yeast giving the same flocculation as the commercial strains. The yeast did not show this during the first two starters though, only at the third starter and in the final beer.

I think the yeast needs a lot of healing when coming from bottle sediment. For that, I used 25% oat flakes in grain bill of the third starter that I made.
 
I used to know a guy who set up a commercial brewery in the UK. When he was testing yeasts for a house strain he was told by Brewlab (iirc) that neither 002 nor 1968 were the Fullers yeast. He told me cos he was surprised. Whether they meant it was not sourced from Fullers, or that it had mutated and was different, I don't know.
 
he was told by Brewlab (iirc) that neither 002 nor 1968 were the Fullers yeast. He told me cos he was surprised.
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's actually tasted Fuller's beer. 002 & 1968 are nothing like it, they're just generic members of the Whitbread family.
 
For that reason I always used Imperial A09. In a side by side with the Fuller's from the bottle I could taste no difference. I find the Fullers yeast gives a blend of orange marmelade and some honey, while WLP007 (Whitbread Dry) gives only orange.
 
I know this recipe!!! :D
This is on my ‘short list’ of To Brew, likely next week. I have Verdant and Notty on hand, but was planning to use A09 “Pub” exclusively. What do you think of a Pub/Verdant co- pitch? I’d probably pitch Verdant initially, then Pub after a day or two of active fermentation.
 
For that reason I always used Imperial A09. In a side by side with the Fuller's from the bottle I could taste no difference. I find the Fullers yeast gives a blend of orange marmelade and some honey, while WLP007 (Whitbread Dry) gives only orange.
Good to know. We should have a wiki to map these. There are old ones that are guesstimates but better to have more up to date info.
 
NB
Just to add some random German phrases that do not make any sense in English but are actually a thing in German:

I think my pig whistles!

He doesn't have all cups in the cupboard.

Now we have the salad.

Such a juice shop.

Nobody can hand us the water.

And last but not least:

That's not my beer. (Meaning, this doesn't concern me.)

The beauty of the German language.

It puts the crown on the whole thing.

If you don't get it, you're looking stupidly out of the laundry!

But maybe you just do have nothing at your hat with it in general.
“The morning has gold in its mouth.”
 
Made a house "beast yeast" with all the English yeasties in my library. Really just a dog's breakfast of what was in the fridge with varying viability, strengths & generations:
S04
Notty
Whitbread
Fullers from the bottle
Shepard Meene (from the bottle)
WLP013
WLP026
Burton Ale
Adnan
WLP85
Essex Ale
WLP006
Manchester
W Yorkie
Pub

and I might have missed one or two. Just dumped them all in the stir plate. Cold crashing right now, and plan to make a bitter as well as store for posterity.
 
This is on my ‘short list’ of To Brew, likely next week. I have Verdant and Notty on hand, but was planning to use A09 “Pub” exclusively. What do you think of a Pub/Verdant co- pitch? I’d probably pitch Verdant initially, then Pub after a day or two of active fermentation.
Nooooo! Don't you ruin the finest of them all with something as overexpressive as verdant!

Pub is the best, no need to try to enhance the best. It only can get worse.
 
I have mixed pub with us05 in the past to increase attenuation in a big beer. That worked pretty well. But flavour wise, I wouldn't want to change a thing, pub is just really nice as it is.
 
If you wish to co-pitch, the closer to hisrorical practice method would be to pitch both simultaneously, as Brittish breweries had running multi-strains, some still do btw.

As an aside, I not too long ago cleaned a keg that hat condained a bitter fermented with Verdant, after rinsing out yeast with water before sponge-scrubbing, the keg still smelled of tropical fruit candy...
 
If you wish to co-pitch, the closer to hisrorical practice method would be to pitch both simultaneously, as Brittish breweries had running multi-strains, some still do btw.

As an aside, I not too long ago cleaned a keg that hat condained a bitter fermented with Verdant, after rinsing out yeast with water before sponge-scrubbing, the keg still smelled of tropical fruit candy...
Verdant can be way too much way too easily... In American hoppy styles no problem at all. In other styles or unfortunately is.
 
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