English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

Sorry, I'll need a source for that, since I also gave one.

Then look for one

 

[Colindo]

Then look for one

Dude, that's exactly how not to argue.

 

[Miraculix]

Dude, that's exactly how not to argue.

I am not arguing at all. I'm sharing what in thinkingb and remembering. As I said before, I cannot find the sources anymore so it's up to you to find them if your interested and don't trust my word enough.

Or your can ask Ron himself, that's also an option. I only have half of the stuff I've read remaining in my head he surely has more to contribute.

 

[Brewskey]

This should be the stuff.

That is "Raw Organic Granulated White Premium Cane Sugar", not demerara. Am I missing something?

​

 

[Brewskey]

Left: Made with 100% Raw cane sugar. Right: Made with 100% demerara.

 

[Colindo]

I am not arguing at all.

You need to look up the definition for "argue".

That is "Raw Organic Granulated White Premium Cane Sugar", not demerara. Am I missing something?

​

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

 

[Brewskey]

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

No worries. I figured there was a difference in the names.

 

[Miraculix]

You need to look up the definition for "argue".

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

Mate honestly, don't interpret my stuff. I am German and probably am to direct for half of the world but I give my best not to write anything in between the lines, to avoid sarcasm and irony and stuff like this. So really, I am only quoting the thoughts in my head. No arguing, no trying to convince somebody, no nothing. Just pure offering of information. What everybody makes out of it is entirely up to him.

 

[Colindo]

These here were all made from the sugar shown on the left with different boil times. The flavour is honey --> raisins --> roasted almonds --> currant + plum

 

[Colindo]

Mate honestly, don't interpret my stuff. I am German and probably am to direct for half of the world

Jo, deswegen vermutete ich, dass du nur "argue = streiten" kennst, nicht "argue = argumentieren". Ich meinte aber letzteres.

 

[Witherby]

View attachment 812811

These here were all made from the sugar shown on the left with different boil times. The flavour is honey --> raisins --> roasted almonds --> currant + plum

Did you neutralize the acid at any point?

 

[Colindo]

Nope, though I find the concept interesting for the part before the long boil. I guess you would end up with more Belgian flavours, since those guys use alkaline syrups.

 

[Witherby]

Currant and plum sounds really nice to me in a dark mild.

 

[Colindo]

Only used it once so far, in a clone for Young's Winter Warmer, but later got the YSM composition from a former Young's brewer. Was really fruity and tasty, but apparently not close to the original. I never had the original, since I only visit the UK in summer, so for me it was great.

 

[Miraculix]

Jo, deswegen vermutete ich, dass du nur "argue = streiten" kennst, nicht "argue = argumentieren". Ich meinte aber letzteres.

I know! And this is exactly why I said I'm not arguing, ich argumentiere nicht!

I'm literally just quoting what I remember, because I cannot find the sources anymore. .... And also because I'm sick and tired of arguing in general.

 

[Colindo]

Maybe I've been in science for too long, but I would actually prefer not to say anything than to say something without giving the source :-/

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe I've been in science for too long, but I would actually prefer not to say anything than to say something without giving the source :-/

Yeah, you've been in science for too long. In my world, personal experience from a person who knows what he's talking about is worth more than any quote with a source of a person that I don't know. If I know what I'm talking about or not lies obviously in the eye of the beholder.

 

[hout17]

You need to look up the definition for "argue".

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

The American sugar you would want for reference would be turbinado. That's the closest thing for me here in the states although I could probably source demerara.

 

[cire]

polarized?

Light passing through a sugar solution undergoes angular refraction. To measure the angle of refraction, light is first passed through a polarizing filter so the actual rotation can be measured on exit. Invert sugar solution refracts light opposite to sucrose solution, hence why the product is called "invert sugar".

 

[Witherby]

I’ve been thinking about Ron’s description of tasting #3 invert when he was at Fuller’s back in 2011 helping them with the Past Masters series:

“Next to be tasted is No. 3 invert sugar. There's dark fruit, dates, caramel, raisins. It's as dark as I'd expected. But more flavourful. Why has brewing sugar gone out of fashion? "It's not sexy," Derek says. It is to me.”

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/07/bs-brewing.html?m=1

 

[Miraculix]

And talking about personal experience, I've got about twenty jars in different shades of colour in my basement that look almost identical to yours. I can also confirm your taste description. All done with heating only, no molasses or really dark sugars.

The problem is, the taste seems not to translate directly into the beer.

When I use an invert made with the method that uses molasses to get the colour, I got a much bigger flavour impact in the beer then with the other invert coloured via heating only. It also reminds me more of the stuff I know from English pubs.

I've made a dark mild with a very dark invert, the plum and raisin, bit burnt sugar version I got from heating only. Couldn't find it in the final beer.

Made a bitter with a medium coloured molasses coloured invert and it was clearly there.

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix I would be interested in any British pub examples you could name? I know of no beer nowadays that is being brewed with invert sugar and I did not drink beer in the UK before 2014. I would also wonder how you would differentiate from the beers using invert and the beers using molasses in their "grain bill". Should all taste quite similar then, right?

I did taste my invert in the beer, at around 20% it was quite striking.

@Witherby Ron might have tried the Ragus version, which if described correctly above might have been made with molasses.

 

[hout17]

Here's an interesting write up from Ron in 2009 just thought I'd post it.

Barclay link

There's definitely no harm in darkening the sugar for more color but I definitely think a more unrefined sugar (which contains more molasses) like demerara or turbinado is key. At the end of the day it's an attempt to somewhat mimic what breweries were doing which we can't anyway but we can get something good at least in my opinion.

Edit: Maybe Ron can put in his two cents lol @patto1ro on this ring around the rosy.

 

[Colindo]

@hout17 I'm not an expert on sugar by any means, but to me demerara sugar sounds as if it would contain zero molasses. Molasses is separated first to get demerara, then the demerara is refined further for white sugar.
I'm not familiar with the term turbinado, to be honest.

Ron's description would be really useful if anyone could get the exact composition of the sugars in question. My demerara sugar, called "Rohrohrzucker" in Germany, says to be 100% carbohydrates. So there is not enough left for the "3% organic matter" that Ron's source says.

Edit: Unsurprisingly, I wasn't correct:

Turbinado, demerara and "raw" sugars are made from crystallized, partially evaporated sugar cane juice and spun in a centrifuge to remove almost all of the molasses. The sugar crystals are large and golden-coloured. This sugar can be sold as is or sent to the refinery to produce white sugar.

So it's almost free of molasses, but not quite. Including the bag of sugar standing before me.

 

[hout17]

@hout17 I'm not an expert on sugar by any means, but to me demerara sugar sounds as if it would contain zero molasses. Molasses is separated first to get demerara, then the demerara is refined further for white sugar.
I'm not familiar with the term turbinado, to be honest.

Ron's description would be really useful if anyone could get the exact composition of the sugars in question. My demerara sugar, called "Rohrohrzucker" in Germany, says to be 100% carbohydrates. So there is not enough left for the "3% organic matter" that Ron's source says.

Molasses is what gives it the darker color. That is the difference it's less refined. More refined sugars don't contain molasses.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix I would be interested in any British pub examples you could name? I know of no beer nowadays that is being brewed with invert sugar and I did not drink beer in the UK before 2014. I would also wonder how you would differentiate from the beers using invert and the beers using molasses in their "grain bill". Should all taste quite similar then, right?

I did taste my invert in the beer, at around 20% it was quite striking.

@Witherby Ron might have tried the Ragus version, which if described correctly above might have been made with molasses.

Don't ask me about names. I'm living in Germany now again for over three years, all the names have been deleted from the ram. All I can say is that the molasses invert tasted more like the real deal that I remember than the other. It brought the little factor that I was missing. Confirmation bias can be almost neglected, I was quite sceptical myself before trying. But I also made great beers with the heated version. Both can be great. But molasses invert tastes more like the little brewery cask ales I remember.

And regarding molasses in beer and the distinction, no idea, but I was thinking the same when making it.

 

[hout17]

Here's another interesting write up from Ron in 2010 on sugar. Fun to read.

 

[Miraculix]

Here's another interesting write up from Ron in 2010 on sugar. Fun to read.

Aaaaaand here we go, next version, heating the sugar together with YEAST to get the invertase enzymes out of the dying cells. It does no get boring, does it?

Note to myself: Next invert sugar will be done with a pack of bakers yeast!

 

[hout17]

Aaaaaand here we go, next version, heating the sugar together with YEAST to get the invertase enzymes out of the dying cells. It does no get boring, does it?

Note to myself: Next invert sugar will be done with a pack of bakers yeast!

Lol it doesn't! The rabbit hole is incredibly deep especially over on Jim's Beer Kit and on the homebrew UK forum (hbt UK). Peebee is in Alice in Wonderland on both of those forums!

Also I highly recommend Ron's Mild Plus, AK, and Homebrewers Guide to Vintage beer books. Great stories, history, and some damn good recipes from way back.

 

[Miraculix]

Lol it doesn't! The rabbit hole is incredibly deep especially over on Jim's Beer Kit and on the homebrew UK forum (hbt UK). Peebee is in Alice in Wonderland on both of those forums!

Also I highly recommend Ron's Mild Plus, AK, and Homebrewers Guide to Vintage beer books. Great stories, history, and some damn good recipes from way back.

I got them, except the guide to vintage beer.