English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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OP
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That is excellent information and it matches up almost exactly with what I observed during this first attempt at using invert sugar. It would appear that if invert is to be added to the mash the base malt should be reduced by roughly double. (Offset 1/2 lb. invert with 1 lb. base malt) Do you agree? Or am I oversimplifying this?
And I do intend, at least for the time being, to continue working with the invert for my English bitters. I loved the flavor of the beer in the sample jar and, assuming that flavor profile comes out of the tap in a few weeks, I'm convinced the invert adds a flavor element that cannot be reproduced without it. My issue now will be trying to figure out how much to use in each recipe.
A question for those familiar with the beers of Great Britain: What about using invert in other traditional beers? Would it be appropriate in an Irish red or a porter?
Cheers!
It's been used (in the past at least) in porters, imperial stouts to light bitters and milds
The most you'll see is 15-20% by weight of ingredients
I've used it in an export stout and stong ale before and it works great. I don't really like chewy beers much so if I want a strong beer then it helps keep it a bit more digestible and as you say adds flavours that are hard to replicate with the various flavoured malts you get
I'm going to try an old AK recipe (which is essentially the grandfather of the modern bitter) that uses about 16% sugar, so it'll be interesting to see if I can make it without it getting too watery as it's quite a small beer
The most you'll see is 15-20% by weight of ingredients
I've used it in an export stout and stong ale before and it works great. I don't really like chewy beers much so if I want a strong beer then it helps keep it a bit more digestible and as you say adds flavours that are hard to replicate with the various flavoured malts you get
I'm going to try an old AK recipe (which is essentially the grandfather of the modern bitter) that uses about 16% sugar, so it'll be interesting to see if I can make it without it getting too watery as it's quite a small beer
Where are you fellas getting this inverted sugar? what's it look like? I'm intrigued!...Demerara sugar adds a little complexity in my pm IPA/APA's. Might be good to add a pound to the ESB? Or in your considered opinions, would the inverted be better?
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<I had to Google it>
Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.
The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[3] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.
Hm. How to heat to 237F with boiling point being 212F? Use a pressure cooker? ** Was looking on Midwest's site for it out of curiosity. Didn't stop to think that Belgian candi syrup is inverted sugar. Doh! One review said the Simplicity brand was better than home cooked invert since they don't use acids in making it. He said the stove top stuff doesn't ferment as well & doesn't taste as good??
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sugar water (candy makers can attest) will go *FAR* above 212
As for stove-top kind, I've never done it, or used candi-sugar, but it's a wild read on using acetic acid to catalyze the succrose to fructose-glucose conversion, then use baking soda to counter the acid. That's wild because I've made candy before and added baking soda to boiling sugar. Not pretty. It's worse than a brew kettle full of wort boil over, where the wort is thick, lava-like, 350° skin-peeling $hit that...well, let's just say it was sub-optimal.
As for stove-top kind, I've never done it, or used candi-sugar, but it's a wild read on using acetic acid to catalyze the succrose to fructose-glucose conversion, then use baking soda to counter the acid. That's wild because I've made candy before and added baking soda to boiling sugar. Not pretty. It's worse than a brew kettle full of wort boil over, where the wort is thick, lava-like, 350° skin-peeling $hit that...well, let's just say it was sub-optimal.
Might try it on an ESB recipe in the near future. But a watermelon hefeweizen is calling my name & will be ordered tomorrow morning. Gunna use sugar baby watermelon juice.
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I'm still trying to find the perfect beer for my palate, and it's somewhere between Oktoberfest, English Bitter and I don't know what. So that's why I jumped into this English Bitter thread.
As for watermelon, and hefe-flavors of banana and clove, all in the same glass? My taste buds are not seeing that as something desirable. Crazier things have happened though (witness brown sugar bacon candy for instance).
As for watermelon, and hefe-flavors of banana and clove, all in the same glass? My taste buds are not seeing that as something desirable. Crazier things have happened though (witness brown sugar bacon candy for instance).
Sugar will certainly help attenuation - but you will only get a dire beer if you substitute sugar for some of the malt extract. Simply adding sugar on top if an existing recipe will only boost the ABV.
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Also, I've heard and read that a good off the shelf invert sugar is Lyle's golden syrup. It's light, so I've ward it's in line with #1 invert.
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Not entirely true. Adding a little sugar on top can not only add ABV but drop the FG and lean it out a bit. Since the sugar ferments essentially 100% you could think of it as blending a small amount of sub-1.000 with the beer, dropping the FG a point or two.
Hey, that's pretty neat. I hadn't considered that. Mostly though, subbing out some malt for sugar will be more effective and will keep your ABV where you want it.
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OP
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- #216
Here's a link to a thread that describes the process of making invert sugar:
http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert
I made mine on the stovetop per instructions in the thread and it worked out very well for me. If you are going to take it all the way to Invert #2 it will easily take a couple of hours. Getting the sugar/water mixture up to 240F takes a lot of time heating it, then it becomes a dance holding the temperature as the very thick viscous liquid wants to get even hotter very quickly.
Once completed and poured into a mason jar it stores almost indefinitely. At room temperature it is a semi-solid. But warmed a bit will pour very readily into the boil kettle.
Following some recipes I had been reading I chose to use a full pound in this last ESB I made and reduced the MO by an equal amount. It may be that this wasn't the best ratio. I will know better when I serve this beer in a couple weeks.
One thing I have learned for certain: Candi syrup is not even close to the same thing. Invert #2 is not interchangeable with anything.
Cheers!
So, in this article you link to he mentions a dilution method - whereas all grades of invert can be obtained with dilutions of blackstrap molasses into golden syrup (or white invert syrup). Since this seems on the face of it very easy - I'm wondering if there is a down side? It seemed to get the endorsement if Kristen England in the article.
There is plenty of blackstrap molasses and lyle's golden syrup in my local store in MN. So I imagine it must be similar elsewhere.
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There is plenty of blackstrap molasses and lyle's golden syrup in my local store in MN. So I imagine it must be similar elsewhere.
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lhommedieu
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FWIW, I go back and forth on the sugar issue. I "tested" my ale last night while I was brewing, and found it to be dry enough to my taste. It had a nice balance between hops and malt, good attenuation, the copper color that I wanted. ABV was 5.6% and I could not taste any alcohol. It should be perfect for my party in a couple of weeks and fortunately, I'll be away for a couple of weeks, lol.
I think that I got the result that I wanted by following these guidelines:
1. Mash at the lower end of the scale and control temperature.
2. Stir plate, pitch at the proper amount, ferment at the higher end of the scale (London 1968 @ 67F), and control temperature.
3. If you have soft water, like I do, add the appropriate amount of gypsum to bring out the hop bitterness.
So, The next time that I make an ESB, I am still going to try adding 8 oz. of sugar at the end of the boil, but I'm 98% happy with this recipe as it stands.
My first attempt at a pilsner using a tri-decoction method was an epic fail (the mash would not convert), but I learned enough about my process to see what I need to change and will try again in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know how the bitter tasted on the 23rd.
I think that I got the result that I wanted by following these guidelines:
1. Mash at the lower end of the scale and control temperature.
2. Stir plate, pitch at the proper amount, ferment at the higher end of the scale (London 1968 @ 67F), and control temperature.
3. If you have soft water, like I do, add the appropriate amount of gypsum to bring out the hop bitterness.
So, The next time that I make an ESB, I am still going to try adding 8 oz. of sugar at the end of the boil, but I'm 98% happy with this recipe as it stands.
My first attempt at a pilsner using a tri-decoction method was an epic fail (the mash would not convert), but I learned enough about my process to see what I need to change and will try again in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know how the bitter tasted on the 23rd.
OP
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- #219
Yes, I saw that method as well. I decided on the first approach because it is close to the method used by confectioners. Figured if they were following that technique it probably was a good one.
I think it would be great if we could learn the outcomes of using both methods. Care to try it and post your results?
Cheers!
I'd be happy to - but it'll be a while...I'm backed up on my to brew list
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I figure I'll eventually get around to making some #1 and/or #2, but if making #4 can really be as easy as "mix 81% golden syrup to 19% blackstrap molasses" and still taste authentic, then why bother sitting over a pot of superhot sugar babysitting it for hours upon hours?
So I'd definitely be interested in someone ELSE doing both and trying side by side
So I'd definitely be interested in someone ELSE doing both and trying side by side
I've taken to makeing it in the oven as I got very bored having to continually re-adjust the temp . Use a temperature probe though, don't trust the temp on the oven
I think I'll try the dilution method though, it seems a bit easier. You only have to heat it for fifteen minutes or so then
I think I'll try the dilution method though, it seems a bit easier. You only have to heat it for fifteen minutes or so then
I'd be happy to - but it'll be a while...I'm backed up on my "to brew" list
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OP
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- #224
Just a point of curiosity on my part, is the golden syrup you are describing a the same thing as white invert sugar?
Golden syrup makes me immediately think of Lyle's Golden Syrup which is available in most grocery stores (often in the ethnic section alongside spotted dick and other decidedly English foods, including my beloved Ribena). Which from what I understand isn't too far from #1 invert. I recall someone mentioning it in this thread and describing the differences not too far back but I'm too lazy to dig for it.
OP
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- #227
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OP
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- #228
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It's an invert sugar, definitely (but so is Belgian candi syrup, which is a different product with different flavors). The question is how close it is to a true #1 invert, which the consensus seems to be "pretty close" but not exact. According to the link you'd posted, 100% Golden Syrup can be used as #1, but per the tasting of some other folks on this thread, it's not exactly the same. My guess is that it's got partially a different source sugar or something (like Belgian candi syrup is made from beet sugar, not unrefined cane sugar)
OP
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- #231
Around my house "after a few months" usually means an empty keg!
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I'm more interested in spending an hour making something if I can avoid "a few months" waiting for Lollipop flavor to dissipate. Yikes.Around my house "after a few months" usually means an empty keg!
OP
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- #233
I brewed up a batch of my regular Irish red recipe today only this time I added 6 oz. of #2 invert sugar at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. My thinking was that since Irish red ales find their roots in English bitters, they must certainly have had invert sugar as a basic ingredient. (Right? Wrong?)
7.50 lbs. - Maris Otter
12 ozs. - British Dark Crystal
8 ozs. - Munich
6 ozs. - Roasted Barley
6 ozs. - Invert #2 at 10 min.
60 min. mash @ 152F
15 min. batch sparge @ 165F
60 min. boil
1 oz. Fuggles @ 60 min.
1 oz. Fuggles @ 10 min.
1 tsp. Irish moss @ 15 min.
1/4 tsp. Fermaid @ yeast pitch
WLP004 Irish Ale yeast - 1.75L 2 step starter from previous slurry
Compared to previous batches of this same recipe the OG increased 2 points to 1.052. The post-boil wort in the sample jar tasted good, but I can't say I could pick up the flavor of the invert sugar in it as compared to previous batches. Certainly 6 oz. of anything isn't much spread out over 5 gallons, but because this isn't a very big beer anyway, it seemed prudent to go easy with this first addition of invert.
Because of the sugar addition I am expecting this batch to attenuate further than previous so will probably end up a little dryer and perhaps a higher ABV by a point or two. It will be interesting to see how it turns out, only I hope we don't loose that smoky goodness typical of this recipe.
Will post results in a few weeks when it is ready to serve.
Cheers!
7.50 lbs. - Maris Otter
12 ozs. - British Dark Crystal
8 ozs. - Munich
6 ozs. - Roasted Barley
6 ozs. - Invert #2 at 10 min.
60 min. mash @ 152F
15 min. batch sparge @ 165F
60 min. boil
1 oz. Fuggles @ 60 min.
1 oz. Fuggles @ 10 min.
1 tsp. Irish moss @ 15 min.
1/4 tsp. Fermaid @ yeast pitch
WLP004 Irish Ale yeast - 1.75L 2 step starter from previous slurry
Compared to previous batches of this same recipe the OG increased 2 points to 1.052. The post-boil wort in the sample jar tasted good, but I can't say I could pick up the flavor of the invert sugar in it as compared to previous batches. Certainly 6 oz. of anything isn't much spread out over 5 gallons, but because this isn't a very big beer anyway, it seemed prudent to go easy with this first addition of invert.
Because of the sugar addition I am expecting this batch to attenuate further than previous so will probably end up a little dryer and perhaps a higher ABV by a point or two. It will be interesting to see how it turns out, only I hope we don't loose that smoky goodness typical of this recipe.
Will post results in a few weeks when it is ready to serve.
Cheers!
lowtones84
Well-Known Member
Going to brew an ordinary bitter probably next weekend, wanted to see what you guys thought. Batch size is 4 gallons because I stovetop BIAB and that's about the largest I can handle.
Target OG: 1.037
Target IBU: 34.23
4 lbs. Crisp Maris Otter
.5 lbs. lightly toasted flaked oats
.5 lbs. flaked barley
6 oz. Crisp Crystal 60
.33 oz. UK Target (11% AA!) @ 60
.25 oz. UK Challenger (8.9% AA) @ 60
Aroma addition up for debate...have some EKG and UK Fuggles around as well as the hops above. Probably dry hop with .5 oz of something as well.
WLP 002
Perhaps the malt bill is too complicated for the style? I want the oats and flaked barley to add to body/mouthfeel and a bit of head retention even though the carbonation won't be too high. Going without the invert syrup this time most likely in order to see if I can make a nice and malty small beer. Testing out some things for fall beers
Target OG: 1.037
Target IBU: 34.23
4 lbs. Crisp Maris Otter
.5 lbs. lightly toasted flaked oats
.5 lbs. flaked barley
6 oz. Crisp Crystal 60
.33 oz. UK Target (11% AA!) @ 60
.25 oz. UK Challenger (8.9% AA) @ 60
Aroma addition up for debate...have some EKG and UK Fuggles around as well as the hops above. Probably dry hop with .5 oz of something as well.
WLP 002
Perhaps the malt bill is too complicated for the style? I want the oats and flaked barley to add to body/mouthfeel and a bit of head retention even though the carbonation won't be too high. Going without the invert syrup this time most likely in order to see if I can make a nice and malty small beer. Testing out some things for fall beers
dyqik
Well-Known Member
I think the yeast should be the source of mouth feel. The mouth feel of oats is completely out of style IMO. Flaked barley less so. I'd replace the oats with flaked corn or just corn sugar to make sure it dries out far enough. I'm drinking a MO only golden ale at the moment, and there's plenty of mouth feel from WLP002, with low carbonation.
Fuggles as a flavor hop, Goldings for aroma is my preference, but you can split then both for both additions.
Fuggles as a flavor hop, Goldings for aroma is my preference, but you can split then both for both additions.
lowtones84
Well-Known Member
That's good to know. This is my first time using 002 so perhaps I'll get rid of the oats for this time around and try it in something later. I'm pretty new to brewing English beers so still getting used to everything. I'll give the fuggles for flavor hop, EKG for aroma a try on this brew, maybe cut back the bittering addition a tiny bit since it's already pushing at the top of the IBU range for the style.
Oats are fine imo, I add them to everything though I like the slickness
But it's a different mouthfeel than flaked barley (used lots in older bitters) or torrified wheat(more modern bitters)
I usually add say 5-10% of unmalted grains to pretty much every beer I brew. Although I do sometimes just go 100% all marris otter
Here's a recent brew I have had conditioning for the last two weeks, more modern bitter/golden ale type thing. The proper recipe doesn't have oats, it has wheat malt instead
Harviestoun Ptarmigan (roughly)
OG 1.045
FG 1.011
ABV 4.4%
IBU 40
MO - 90%
Crystal medium 4%
Flaked oats 4%
Sugar 2%
Hops
Challenger 34IBU 60mins 35g
Saaz 4 IBU 15mins 25g
Saaz 2.5IBU 5 mins 25g
S04
Mash at 67C
I tried some a couple of days ago and it's still too green, another couple of weeks and it should be good to drink. The IBUs are probably closer to 30 too. I've since read it should be finished with pioneer hops which makes sense as from what I remember of the proper beer it had definite citrus notes to it. ahh well, should still be nice enough
I like the slicknessBut it's a different mouthfeel than flaked barley (used lots in older bitters) or torrified wheat(more modern bitters)
I usually add say 5-10% of unmalted grains to pretty much every beer I brew. Although I do sometimes just go 100% all marris otter
Here's a recent brew I have had conditioning for the last two weeks, more modern bitter/golden ale type thing. The proper recipe doesn't have oats, it has wheat malt instead
Harviestoun Ptarmigan (roughly)
OG 1.045
FG 1.011
ABV 4.4%
IBU 40
MO - 90%
Crystal medium 4%
Flaked oats 4%
Sugar 2%
Hops
Challenger 34IBU 60mins 35g
Saaz 4 IBU 15mins 25g
Saaz 2.5IBU 5 mins 25g
S04
Mash at 67C
I tried some a couple of days ago and it's still too green, another couple of weeks and it should be good to drink. The IBUs are probably closer to 30 too. I've since read it should be finished with pioneer hops which makes sense as from what I remember of the proper beer it had definite citrus notes to it. ahh well, should still be nice enough
OP
- Thread Starter
- #240
For my 2c worth I agree with omitting the oats. As far as the hops I think I'd make an either/or choice between Target and Challenger for bittering then the same either/or choice of EKG or Fuggles for flavor/aroma. The first ordinary bitter recipe I made called for straight EKG for both bittering and flavor/aroma and the beer was excellent.
