English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[FlyDoctor]

lol - Good luck on that patience thing...



I brewed an ESB in early July and it's been in the keg for about two weeks. I plan to tap it August 23rd for a BBQ party, and I'll post the results.



My earlier ales were very sweet and full-bodied but I have successfully made them a bit drier to my taste by keeping my mash temperature @ 149 and making sure that I have an adequate amount of yeast to pitch. I always stir plate my yeast and have gotten into the habit of oxygenating the wort before pitching.



I have read that adding sugar to the wort just after the boil can increase attenuation but so far I have not needed to add it; as an experiment though, I think that the next time that I brew an ESB I may add 8 oz of cane sugar or invert sugar and see what results.



Good luck on your ESB and let us know how it turned out.

Sugar will certainly help attenuation - but you will only get a dire beer if you substitute sugar for some of the malt extract. Simply adding sugar on top if an existing recipe will only boost the ABV.


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[FlyDoctor]

Also, I've heard and read that a good off the shelf invert sugar is Lyle's golden syrup. It's light, so I've ward it's in line with #1 invert.


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[JKaranka]

I have slightly mixed feelings about golden syrup. It leaves some lollipop sort of flavours that take a while to die down. It's sort of close to #1, thought.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sugar will certainly help attenuation - but you will only get a dire beer if you substitute sugar for some of the malt extract. Simply adding sugar on top if an existing recipe will only boost the ABV.


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Not entirely true. Adding a little sugar on top can not only add ABV but drop the FG and lean it out a bit. Since the sugar ferments essentially 100% you could think of it as blending a small amount of sub-1.000 with the beer, dropping the FG a point or two.

 

[FlyDoctor]

Not entirely true. Adding a little sugar on top can not only add ABV but drop the FG and lean it out a bit. Since the sugar ferments essentially 100% you could think of it as blending a small amount of sub-1.000 with the beer, dropping the FG a point or two.

Hey, that's pretty neat. I hadn't considered that. Mostly though, subbing out some malt for sugar will be more effective and will keep your ABV where you want it.


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[Puddlethumper]

Where are you fellas getting this inverted sugar? what's it look like? I'm intrigued!...Demerara sugar adds a little complexity in my pm IPA/APA's. Might be good to add a pound to the ESB? Or in your considered opinions, would the inverted be better?

Here's a link to a thread that describes the process of making invert sugar:

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

I made mine on the stovetop per instructions in the thread and it worked out very well for me. If you are going to take it all the way to Invert #2 it will easily take a couple of hours. Getting the sugar/water mixture up to 240F takes a lot of time heating it, then it becomes a dance holding the temperature as the very thick viscous liquid wants to get even hotter very quickly.

Once completed and poured into a mason jar it stores almost indefinitely. At room temperature it is a semi-solid. But warmed a bit will pour very readily into the boil kettle.

Following some recipes I had been reading I chose to use a full pound in this last ESB I made and reduced the MO by an equal amount. It may be that this wasn't the best ratio. I will know better when I serve this beer in a couple weeks.

One thing I have learned for certain: Candi syrup is not even close to the same thing. Invert #2 is not interchangeable with anything.

Cheers!

 

[FlyDoctor]

So, in this article you link to he mentions a dilution method - whereas all grades of invert can be obtained with dilutions of blackstrap molasses into golden syrup (or white invert syrup). Since this seems on the face of it very easy - I'm wondering if there is a down side? It seemed to get the endorsement if Kristen England in the article.

There is plenty of blackstrap molasses and lyle's golden syrup in my local store in MN. So I imagine it must be similar elsewhere.


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[lhommedieu]

FWIW, I go back and forth on the sugar issue. I "tested" my ale last night while I was brewing, and found it to be dry enough to my taste. It had a nice balance between hops and malt, good attenuation, the copper color that I wanted. ABV was 5.6% and I could not taste any alcohol. It should be perfect for my party in a couple of weeks and fortunately, I'll be away for a couple of weeks, lol.

I think that I got the result that I wanted by following these guidelines:

1. Mash at the lower end of the scale and control temperature.
2. Stir plate, pitch at the proper amount, ferment at the higher end of the scale (London 1968 @ 67F), and control temperature.
3. If you have soft water, like I do, add the appropriate amount of gypsum to bring out the hop bitterness.

So, The next time that I make an ESB, I am still going to try adding 8 oz. of sugar at the end of the boil, but I'm 98% happy with this recipe as it stands.

My first attempt at a pilsner using a tri-decoction method was an epic fail (the mash would not convert), but I learned enough about my process to see what I need to change and will try again in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know how the bitter tasted on the 23rd.

 

[Puddlethumper]

So, in this article you link to he mentions a dilution method - whereas all grades of invert can be obtained with dilutions of blackstrap molasses into golden syrup (or white invert syrup). Since this seems on the face of it very easy - I'm wondering if there is a down side? It seemed to get the endorsement if Kristen England in the article.

Yes, I saw that method as well. I decided on the first approach because it is close to the method used by confectioners. Figured if they were following that technique it probably was a good one.

I think it would be great if we could learn the outcomes of using both methods. Care to try it and post your results?

Cheers!

 

[FlyDoctor]

I'd be happy to - but it'll be a while...I'm backed up on my to brew list


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[Qhrumphf]

I figure I'll eventually get around to making some #1 and/or #2, but if making #4 can really be as easy as "mix 81% golden syrup to 19% blackstrap molasses" and still taste authentic, then why bother sitting over a pot of superhot sugar babysitting it for hours upon hours?

So I'd definitely be interested in someone ELSE doing both and trying side by side

 

[Hanglow]

I've taken to makeing it in the oven as I got very bored having to continually re-adjust the temp . Use a temperature probe though, don't trust the temp on the oven

I think I'll try the dilution method though, it seems a bit easier. You only have to heat it for fifteen minutes or so then

 

[FlyDoctor]

I'd be happy to - but it'll be a while...I'm backed up on my "to brew" list


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[Puddlethumper]

I figure I'll eventually get around to making some #1 and/or #2, but if making #4 can really be as easy as "mix 81% golden syrup to 19% blackstrap molasses" and still taste authentic, then why bother sitting over a pot of superhot sugar babysitting it for hours upon hours?

Just a point of curiosity on my part, is the golden syrup you are describing a the same thing as white invert sugar?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Just a point of curiosity on my part, is the golden syrup you are describing a the same thing as white invert sugar?

Golden syrup makes me immediately think of Lyle's Golden Syrup which is available in most grocery stores (often in the ethnic section alongside spotted dick and other decidedly English foods, including my beloved Ribena). Which from what I understand isn't too far from #1 invert. I recall someone mentioning it in this thread and describing the differences not too far back but I'm too lazy to dig for it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, I've heard and read that a good off the shelf invert sugar is Lyle's golden syrup. It's light, so I've ward it's in line with #1 invert.


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I have slightly mixed feelings about golden syrup. It leaves some lollipop sort of flavours that take a while to die down. It's sort of close to #1, thought.

There it is. That's what I was looking for.

 

[Puddlethumper]

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[Puddlethumper]

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[Qhrumphf]

Isn't it pretty black and white? I mean, as I understand it, it is either invert sugar or it's not. Its like being sort of pregnant.

It's an invert sugar, definitely (but so is Belgian candi syrup, which is a different product with different flavors). The question is how close it is to a true #1 invert, which the consensus seems to be "pretty close" but not exact. According to the link you'd posted, 100% Golden Syrup can be used as #1, but per the tasting of some other folks on this thread, it's not exactly the same. My guess is that it's got partially a different source sugar or something (like Belgian candi syrup is made from beet sugar, not unrefined cane sugar)

 

[JKaranka]

Golden syrup is meant to be a mix of pale invert with sucrose. When I've used it it has left a lollipop flavour that I don't get from plain sugar, but it does die down after a few months.

 

[Puddlethumper]

When I've used it it has left a lollipop flavour that I don't get from plain sugar, but it does die down after a few months.

Around my house "after a few months" usually means an empty keg!

 

[balrog]

Around my house "after a few months" usually means an empty keg!

I'm more interested in spending an hour making something if I can avoid "a few months" waiting for Lollipop flavor to dissipate. Yikes.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I brewed up a batch of my regular Irish red recipe today only this time I added 6 oz. of #2 invert sugar at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. My thinking was that since Irish red ales find their roots in English bitters, they must certainly have had invert sugar as a basic ingredient. (Right? Wrong?)

7.50 lbs. - Maris Otter
12 ozs. - British Dark Crystal
8 ozs. - Munich
6 ozs. - Roasted Barley
6 ozs. - Invert #2 at 10 min.

60 min. mash @ 152F
15 min. batch sparge @ 165F
60 min. boil

1 oz. Fuggles @ 60 min.
1 oz. Fuggles @ 10 min.

1 tsp. Irish moss @ 15 min.
1/4 tsp. Fermaid @ yeast pitch

WLP004 Irish Ale yeast - 1.75L 2 step starter from previous slurry

Compared to previous batches of this same recipe the OG increased 2 points to 1.052. The post-boil wort in the sample jar tasted good, but I can't say I could pick up the flavor of the invert sugar in it as compared to previous batches. Certainly 6 oz. of anything isn't much spread out over 5 gallons, but because this isn't a very big beer anyway, it seemed prudent to go easy with this first addition of invert.

Because of the sugar addition I am expecting this batch to attenuate further than previous so will probably end up a little dryer and perhaps a higher ABV by a point or two. It will be interesting to see how it turns out, only I hope we don't loose that smoky goodness typical of this recipe.

Will post results in a few weeks when it is ready to serve.

Cheers!

 

[JKaranka]

Hah, that sounds like a pretty good idea

 

[lowtones84]

Going to brew an ordinary bitter probably next weekend, wanted to see what you guys thought. Batch size is 4 gallons because I stovetop BIAB and that's about the largest I can handle.

Target OG: 1.037
Target IBU: 34.23

4 lbs. Crisp Maris Otter
.5 lbs. lightly toasted flaked oats
.5 lbs. flaked barley
6 oz. Crisp Crystal 60

.33 oz. UK Target (11% AA!) @ 60
.25 oz. UK Challenger (8.9% AA) @ 60
Aroma addition up for debate...have some EKG and UK Fuggles around as well as the hops above. Probably dry hop with .5 oz of something as well.

WLP 002

Perhaps the malt bill is too complicated for the style? I want the oats and flaked barley to add to body/mouthfeel and a bit of head retention even though the carbonation won't be too high. Going without the invert syrup this time most likely in order to see if I can make a nice and malty small beer. Testing out some things for fall beers

 

[dyqik]

I think the yeast should be the source of mouth feel. The mouth feel of oats is completely out of style IMO. Flaked barley less so. I'd replace the oats with flaked corn or just corn sugar to make sure it dries out far enough. I'm drinking a MO only golden ale at the moment, and there's plenty of mouth feel from WLP002, with low carbonation.

Fuggles as a flavor hop, Goldings for aroma is my preference, but you can split then both for both additions.

 

[lowtones84]

That's good to know. This is my first time using 002 so perhaps I'll get rid of the oats for this time around and try it in something later. I'm pretty new to brewing English beers so still getting used to everything. I'll give the fuggles for flavor hop, EKG for aroma a try on this brew, maybe cut back the bittering addition a tiny bit since it's already pushing at the top of the IBU range for the style.

 

[Hanglow]

Oats are fine imo, I add them to everything though I like the slickness

But it's a different mouthfeel than flaked barley (used lots in older bitters) or torrified wheat(more modern bitters)

I usually add say 5-10% of unmalted grains to pretty much every beer I brew. Although I do sometimes just go 100% all marris otter

Here's a recent brew I have had conditioning for the last two weeks, more modern bitter/golden ale type thing. The proper recipe doesn't have oats, it has wheat malt instead

Harviestoun Ptarmigan (roughly)
OG 1.045
FG 1.011
ABV 4.4%
IBU 40


MO - 90%
Crystal medium 4%
Flaked oats 4%
Sugar 2%

Hops
Challenger 34IBU 60mins 35g
Saaz 4 IBU 15mins 25g
Saaz 2.5IBU 5 mins 25g

S04

Mash at 67C

I tried some a couple of days ago and it's still too green, another couple of weeks and it should be good to drink. The IBUs are probably closer to 30 too. I've since read it should be finished with pioneer hops which makes sense as from what I remember of the proper beer it had definite citrus notes to it. ahh well, should still be nice enough

 

[JKaranka]

Target & EKG for a one ounce fry hop could be a nice twist. I think it was Fullers' Bengal Lancer that uses Target for dry hop. Works well enough!

 

[Puddlethumper]

For my 2c worth I agree with omitting the oats. As far as the hops I think I'd make an either/or choice between Target and Challenger for bittering then the same either/or choice of EKG or Fuggles for flavor/aroma. The first ordinary bitter recipe I made called for straight EKG for both bittering and flavor/aroma and the beer was excellent.