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Puddlethumper

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But everything I've read concerning making invert syrup for British beers says to use turbinado (or demerara), so that's what I'm doing :p

Should I add the invert syrup at the start of the boil, or with 15 min left? Brewing tomorrow!
Thanks for that. The recipes I've found for making invert sugar for confectionary use call for white granulated sugar. Haven't found any that call for turbinado, but that may be more of a brewing-specific recipe for invert sugar. Since I'll be buying the sugar for this anyway it doesn't matter which is the better choice, just want to have a better idea which way to jump.

Wish I could give you some insight regarding the boil addition. Maybe one of our friends from across the pond will help us all with that one.

Cheers! :mug:
 

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I think this has been posted before but I'm using this link: http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert (though I'm using citric acid, which calls for a little less).

Making it right now actually and it smells great :) Unfortunately the price of turbinado in the US is kind of high. If you can get it in bulk (even costco, etc.) it's a little better. The best price I've gotten it for is 6 lbs. for $8, so it's not really cheaper than malt unfortunately. But I enjoy my beers dry usually, and am looking for the flavor and color contribution, so it's worth making it to me.
 

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Yeah, you're meant to use unrefined cane sugar to get some of the impurities into the invert. I'd add it towards the end of the boil. I often consider candi sugar syrup as a substitute as the main difference seems to be that the sugar comes from beet (it will be different, but not miles off).
 

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Thanks for the advice! I figured it was more mean for the end of the boil but wasn't sure. Gonna mill the grains and get the strike water going here soon. Will keep you guys updated! :mug:
 
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Thanks for the advice! I figured it was more mean for the end of the boil but wasn't sure. Gonna mill the grains and get the strike water going here soon. Will keep you guys updated!
Please do. I'll be interested to learn how it turns out. Hope you have a great day!

:mug:
 

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If you have any Latin grocery stores in your area you might find cheap turbinado sugar or pure unrefined sugars sold in blocks/disks/ cones - piloncillo is the Mexican name, panela the South American name - both are pure boiled-down cane juice. Have used them in plenty of beers with good results


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Right, forgot about that! The only type I've seen here is goya brand pre-measured out blocks. It is a little cheaper than buying turbinado but not much. I'm sure if I could find a decent Latin grocery I would have better luck.
 

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Well, I started a little later than intended, but this is what I ended up going with:

7 lbs. Crisp MO
.5 lb. Home roasted crystal (amber range)
.5 lb. Flaked barley
2.25 oz. Acidulated malt (for mash PH)
1 lb. Home made invert syrup @ 10 min.

1 oz. EKG @ 60min.
.25 oz. EKG, .5 oz. Fuggles @ 15 min. (

Mashed for 90 min @151. Boiled for more like 75 minutes, still added hops with 60 min. left. Pitched re-hydrated S-04 into 62F wort.

My gravity ended up being 1.052 but that's because I boiled off not quite a half gallon more than planned. I diluted to get up to 5.5 gallons in the bucket, and I would bet I'm back down to 1.048 or lower. No action in the airlock 11 hours later, but it's sitting in the low 60's F so I'm not terribly surprised. Will report back near bottling time.

Thanks again guys! :mug:
 

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Well, I bottled a touch over 5 gallons yesterday. FG 1.011 for an ABV of around 4.85%. Well, it's a little stronger, whoops. I will shoot for something a little smaller next time.

The smell was great coming out of the bottling bucket, smelled like like the Crisp Maris Otter and some hoppiness. The hydrometer sample was still a tiny bit harsh but I think it will mellow a bit. The taste also definitely revealed the home made inver syrup. It's a big part of the flavor, and definitely something that helps remind me of the few English bitters I've had.
 
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The taste also definitely revealed the home made inver syrup. It's a big part of the flavor, and definitely something that helps remind me of the few English bitters I've had.
That sounds great. And thanks for keeping this going. I'll be interested to learn your take on it when it's fully carbonated and bottle conditioned.

BTW, we found turbinado sugar at WalMart and it is inexpensive. We picked up a 1.5# bag to have on hand for the next batch of English bitters and/or English IPA.

Cheers!
 

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Cool, glad to hear it. Turbinado isn't expensive, it's just more expensive than refined, bleached sugar which boggles my mind. I want it to be cheaper than the malt I use so it makes some sense :p To make the invert sugar you'll need either liquid lactic acid or some citric acid (no just squeezing a lemon into it...though that might work) for canning. I had better luck tracking down citric acid, but you use less than the liquid lactic. If you go the citric acid amount let me know, I can let you know how much I used. You can just throw it into the boil too, but having done both making the invert is definitely different.
 
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Cool, glad to hear it. Turbinado isn't expensive, it's just more expensive than refined, bleached sugar which boggles my mind. I want it to be cheaper than the malt I use so it makes some sense :p To make the invert sugar you'll need either liquid lactic acid or some citric acid (no just squeezing a lemon into it...though that might work) for canning. I had better luck tracking down citric acid, but you use less than the liquid lactic. If you go the citric acid amount let me know, I can let you know how much I used. You can just throw it into the boil too, but having done both making the invert is definitely different.
How much lactic do you typically use for a pound of invert? I have a little bottle of lactic that I use for mash/sparge additions to adjust mash pH.
 

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Check out the link on the previous page in this thread. They use like 88% liquid lactic or something so if your's is a different concentration it might be different. The process detailed in that link is about the same to many others I've seen, and what I targeted in my process.
 

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I put my recipe for Harvey's Sussex Bitter on the recipe database a while back (based on a recipe on Jimsbeerkit). I've made it several times, and I'm going to get a hold of Brewlabs Sussex 1 yeast for the next batch (reputedly the Harvey's yeast), but it works pretty well with WLP002 (now 4 generations old on this particular recipe).

Basic recipe is:
7.5 lbs Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Crystal 80L (80.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM)
1.00 oz Fuggles - Boil 60.0 min - 18.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Challenger - Boil 60.0 min - 12.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Bramling Cross - Boil 20.0 min - 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz EKG - Boil 20.0 min - 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Fuggles - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min - 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz EKG - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min - 0.0 IBUs
Optional dry hop with 0.5 oz EKG

OG 1.044, FG 1.010, 44 IBU.

I'm sure the hop schedule could be simplified - maybe get all the bittering from Challenger? The Bramling Cross flavour addition is fairly noticeable. The flaked corn is basically an alternative to sugar that is used in some recipes I've seen.
 

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Looks nice. I would like to try a brew with Bramling Cross sometime, just kind of hard for me to get a hold of. What would you describe the flavor as?
 

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Looks nice. I would like to try a brew with Bramling Cross sometime, just kind of hard for me to get a hold of. What would you describe the flavor as?
The flavor is usually described as blackcurrant to lemon, I'd lean more towards the blackcurrant end as what it adds to this beer (I did a couple batches without it, although I didn't do a side by side tasting). It adds a sort of berry fruit roundness to the flavor of the goldings and fuggles.
 
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Looks nice. I would like to try a brew with Bramling Cross sometime, just kind of hard for me to get a hold of. What would you describe the flavor as?
I made a porter that is just now carbing up enough to sample. I made it with Challenger/Bramling Cross/Fuggles. Wonderful stuff. Definitely a blackcurrant from the Bramling Cross. Just a hint and not at all overpowering. I like it and plan to keep a pack or two on hand for future brews.

Northern Brewer carries it.
 

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It's best in darker beers imo, I tried a single hop BX golden ale before and was not impressed :eek:

But it certainly adds something extra when used with other hops in porters/stouts/black ales etc
 

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It's best in darker beers imo, I tried a single hop BX golden ale before and was not impressed :eek:

But it certainly adds something extra when used with other hops in porters/stouts/black ales etc
^^^
I made a black IPA in which it featured heavily and it was great



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I'm just finishing up making my first batch of invert #2. A very instructive process. It will be interesting to taste the impact of this addition to my favorite ESB recipe.

So how do you determine the SRM of the sugar? I have a SRM chart and have a bunch of plastic communion cups. I dropped enough sugar to cover the bottom of the cup and placed it on the SRM chart. It is informative but since I don't know how this test is done I'm kind of shooting in the dark to hit the correct color.
 

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I believe SRM is determined by measuring with sprectrophotometer through 1cm of solution. So depending on the thickness your poured to, you may be pretty close doing it that way.
 
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I believe SRM is determined by measuring with sprectrophotometer through 1cm of solution. So depending on the thickness your poured to, you may be pretty close doing it that way.
So my calibrated measurement is a teaspoon full in the bottom of a plastic communion cup and my sprectrophotometer is a pair of 64 year old eyes with bifocals. Sounds like good science to me! LOL

Thanks Bud! Hope you're having a great weekend!

:mug:

PS: FWIW, I'm thinking you are right. And the stuff tastes fantastic.
 

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I really need to try making me some invert sugar. I still haven't tried it. I figure I'll give it a whack here in the near future.

My usual technique is "this looks kinda reddish in this nonic pint, I'd call that 12 SRM", which is even more scientific ;)
 
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I really need to try making me some invert sugar. I still haven't tried it. I figure I'll give it a whack here in the near future.

My usual technique is "this looks kinda reddish in this nonic pint, I'd call that 12 SRM", which is even more scientific ;)
LOL.

Making the stuff was a bit of a PITA but if the beer turns out good I'd sure be willing to make it again. Only thing is, I'd make a 6 lb. batch instead of 1 1/2. May as well use up an afternoon making a big batch as a little one.

A 1 1/2 lb bag of turbinado sugar yielded almost exactly 1 1/2 lbs of invert #2.

Invert No 2.jpg
 

Qhrumphf

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LOL.

Making the stuff was a bit of a PITA but if the beer turns out good I'd sure be willing to make it again. Only thing is, I'd make a 6 lb. batch instead of 1 1/2. May as well use up an afternoon making a big batch as a little one.

A 1 1/2 lb bag of turbinado sugar yielded almost exactly 1 1/2 lbs of invert #2.
My wife and I have been looking into getting a pressure cooker. I figure spending a week of vacation making 10 lbs batches each of #1, #2, #3, and #4, and then canning them in 1lb jars, and I'd be set for a very long time. I figure they'll work for both English and Belgian beers, so why not, right? Or better yet, repeat the process, the first time with turbinado for the English beers, and the second time with beet sugar for the Belgian ones...

I'm sure my wife will be okay with having 80 jars of various invert sugars in the house. I'm sure she will :mug:
 
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I'm sure my wife will be okay with having 80 jars of various invert sugars in the house. I'm sure she will :mug:
OK, so if your wife is good with that my son wants to know if she has a sister! :D

Never occurred to me to use a pressure cooker to make the stuff. How would that work?
 

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OK, so if your wife is good with that my son wants to know if she has a sister! :D

Never occurred to me to use a pressure cooker to make the stuff. How would that work?
Not so much using the pressure cooker to make it, but using the pressure cooker after it's already made to can it so that I can keep it around for a few years without worrying about spoilage.
 
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I doubt this stuff is very likely to spoil. The pic I uploaded was a jar that I had boiled in the microwave so it was at least 200F when I poured the ~240F invert sugar into it. I then dropped a sterilized lid and ring onto it and sealed it up. I'm thinking this jar is about as bacteria free as it is possible to do. Probably sealed at least as tight as Mom's canned peaches that lasted more than one season in the jar.

The only thing I'd do different next time is to prepare 6 1 pt. jars and buy 4 1.5# bags of turbinado from Wallyworld. That would make 6 lbs. of invert which would be enough to make 6 batches of beer. I 'm thinking it will keep on the shelf plenty long enough to use it up.

:mug:
 
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Now that I have a pound or so of #2 Invert sugar I'm getting ready to make my first foray into traditional English brewing. I'm thinking a batch of Worthington's White Shield IPA (clone) might make a good choice because of our dry and hot weather here. I ran across the following recipe posted on HBT back in 2006 (not much else out there right now):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/worthington-white-shield-copy-5416/

I understand that WLP013 and White Labs London Ale yeasts are very close to the original Worthington's strains. My remaining concern with this recipe is that I don't trust the OG values he is suggesting. I ran this through BrewTarget and got a very low 1.033 OG which is far below guidelines for the style. Boosting the pale malt to 9.5 lbs brings it up to 1.047 which is much closer to style but still short. Any ideas or suggestions on this issue?
 

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What's your efficiency? My guess is this is for fairly high efficiency. Almost 7 lbs of grain plus a lb of sugar, I'd be about where he is. Without running numbers I'd say a little under but not much.

Edit: I just ran the numbers. My system puts me at 1.051, and my brewhouse efficiency is about 80%.
 

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I had White Shield last month. Hoppy and caramelly at the same time. The #2 invert might give it some colour and honey. Fairly refreshing but a tad heavy somehow. Lovely aroma.
 
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What's your efficiency? My guess is this is for fairly high efficiency. Almost 7 lbs of grain plus a lb of sugar, I'd be about where he is. Without running numbers I'd say a little under but not much.

Edit: I just ran the numbers. My system puts me at 1.051, and my brewhouse efficiency is about 80%.
Interesting outcome here. Unfortunately I haven't taken the time or effort to calculate my efficiency. I've just run it at 75% (nominal) and have turned out good beer. Probably should get around to addressing that.

But with Brewtarget set at 80% efficiency this recipe still yields an OG of only 1.039. Perhaps the problem lies in Brewtarget. What are you using? Here are the rest of the numbers Brewtarget came up with and I'd be interested to know what differences you found:

OG 1.039
FG 1.011
ABV 3.6%
IBU 54.0
SRM 5.5
 
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I had White Shield last month. Hoppy and caramelly at the same time. The #2 invert might give it some colour and honey. Fairly refreshing but a tad heavy somehow. Lovely aroma.
This White Shield recipe is coming up with a level of IBU's similar to American IPA's and a bit hoppy for my tastes. So, since you are there and I am here, if you were to brew a classic ESB that you felt typified the best of English beers what recipe would you follow?
 

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Interesting outcome here. Unfortunately I haven't taken the time or effort to calculate my efficiency. I've just run it at 75% (nominal) and have turned out good beer. Probably should get around to addressing that.

But with Brewtarget set at 80% efficiency this recipe still yields an OG of only 1.039. Perhaps the problem lies in Brewtarget. What are you using? Here are the rest of the numbers Brewtarget came up with and I'd be interested to know what differences you found:

OG 1.039
FG 1.011
ABV 3.6%
IBU 54.0
SRM 5.5
I use BeerSmith. I tried using BrewTarget a while ago and kept getting results like that, figuring it was a configuration error and then not wanting to work it out.

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.006 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 75.0 IBUs
Est Color: 9.2 SRM

That's assuming 32 SRM for your #2 invert. That's also a default mash of 150. In reality I'd mash this higher.
 
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I use BeerSmith. I tried using BrewTarget a while ago and kept getting results like that, figuring it was a configuration error and then not wanting to work it out.

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.006 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 75.0 IBUs
Est Color: 9.2 SRM

That's assuming 32 SRM for your #2 invert. That's also a default mash of 150. In reality I'd mash this higher.
Thanks for the numbers. The recipe calls for a mash in of 3.75 gal. @ 140F then gradual increase to 151F and hold for 1.5 hrs. Then top off with cold water to 5.5 gal. finished.

I haven't used this technique before (sans sparge) but must assume it works. It does tie a knot in my usual ideas of how to figure the finished product. Your numbers reveal an IBU level that would require a fresh box of Kleenex for me so I'm thinking this may not be the best choice for my taste-buds.

And I believe my #2 invert came in closer to 50-60 SRM. (Bifocals notwithstanding.) :)

Looks like I may need to change to Beersmith.

Thanks again.
 

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I guess IBU for this one has dropped over the centuries. From the bottle I had I'd expect 45-50 IBU with very little late additions relative to the early ones. Don't they mention Challenger and Northdown? That gives away a recipe change in the 70s / 80s. If I was recreating a 1880s version I'd just use pale malt, invert and Goldings.
 
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I guess IBU for this one has dropped over the centuries. From the bottle I had I'd expect 45-50 IBU with very little late additions relative to the early ones. Don't they mention Challenger and Northdown? That gives away a recipe change in the 70s / 80s. If I was recreating a 1880s version I'd just use pale malt, invert and Goldings.
This recipe calls for 2 oz. Fuggles and 1 oz. EKG for 90 min. Then a half ounce of EKG at flameout and steep for 15 min. Another 1/4 oz. dryhopped. The IBU's Beersmith is coming up with are up there with the latest American iterations of an IPA. My understanding was that English IPA's weren't anywhere near that bitter. Am I mistaken in this?
 
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I'll rephrase my question to those who are following this thread.....If you were to create what you considered the quintessential English beer (IPA, ESB, Mild, Brown, etc.) what would you make?

I am especially interested in recipes that call for invert sugar since I understand it is an integral part of true British beers and I did go to the trouble of making some. :)

Thanks in advance for your ideas and suggestions!

Cheers! :mug:
 

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This recipe calls for 2 oz. Fuggles and 1 oz. EKG for 90 min. Then a half ounce of EKG at flameout and steep for 15 min. Another 1/4 oz. dryhopped. The IBU's Beersmith is coming up with are up there with the latest American iterations of an IPA. My understanding was that English IPA's weren't anywhere near that bitter. Am I mistaken in this?
I'd thought the same, but reading some of Patinson's historical recipes has completely blown that idea out of my head. He admits the hopping isn't always available in historical versions so he's had to guess a lot of the time, but that based on traditional practice at the time, the IBUs could have been very very high historically.

As for White Shield, I've never had it so I can't offer an opinion on what it actually tastes like.
 

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