Good. Constructive disagreement leads to further understanding, so disagree away!
Absolutely agree. Just healthy debate.
M36 was changed from M72 Burton Union at the same time MJ changed several other yeasts; a change that just happened to coincide exactly with Lallemand's revamping of their product range. The latest version of the ever-changing blurb published by MJ currently describes M36 as "A top fermenting ale yeast suitable for a wide variety of hoppy and distinctive style beers [which] produces light, delicate fruity esters and helps to develop malt character. Suitable for both English and American Pale Ales, Extra Special Bitters, Golden Ales and more." On the basis of that it might even be plain old US-05. How would you say it compares to that? Mauri 514 (which I take it you are referring to) is, to all intents and purposes, a robust EDME variety. I'm 100% convinced it is NOT specially made for them and I seriously doubt it is a blend. Which leaves repackaging.
The change of the MJ range coinciding with the Lallemand changes is certainly significant. But it doesn't match any of the Lallemand yeasts, so how did the Lallemand changes affect M36? Which Lallemand yeasts changed or appeared? It has more esters than Nottingham. It attenuates more than Windsor, and floccs better. It is not like US-05 either. Mauri 514 would be the closest to M36 that I've used, but I got consistently higher attenuation with 514. And it was cleaner, ester wise. I haven't used another dry yeast like M36.
Dual pitching in a brewery is different from dual pitching in a home brewing scenario. Incidentally, the warning not to crop and reuse MJ yeasts only appeared on the first version(s) of the packaging and has since been removed (based on the latest ones I've seen).
No argument there, though pitching Windsor/Notty 50/50 or 75/25 at the start of a homebrew batch is a tried and tested method. I never used M79 but I saw a lot of reviews of it being stubborn to clear, and getting out of control ester wise. Sounds a bit like Windsor. Maybe theyWent from 75/25 to 50/50/! Just a wild guess of course, but it sort of explains M36 that any other explanation I can think of. And, in fact, there are a number of MJ yeasts that is difficult to match against any of the Lalbrew or Fermentis yeasts. M29 is different from Belle Saison and I think pre-dates BE-134, and M44? It seems a bit kolschy to me, going a bit left field.
I got an email from the Lallemand global tech advisor today which said all their yeasts are single strain, incidentally. Which I assumed was the case. He recommended pitching Belle Saison 24 hours after Nottingham for a less clovy saison.
OK. I'll gladly accept that on the basis of your experience. Which means that based on current (!) product info US-05 is actually the least unlikely candidate. What's your opinion on how these two compare?
I think US-05 is Chico and is different from any of the English strains. I think London ESB and Munton's Standard are similar enough to possibly be the same. I think S-33 and Windsor are similar enough to be the same strain, made in different production plants.
OK. Would you classify it as EDME or as Whitbread?
I'm not sure that is a clear cut question. Whitbread is a family of English yeasts that spread widely through British breweries. I don't know which dry yeasts are descendents of Whitbread, if any. Edme presumably gave rise to either ESB/Munton's or S-33/Windsor. Anyway, I don't know whether it is Edme or Whitbread, or something else, to answer your question.
Muntons doesn't have a yeast production lab, so if this is not being propagated by Lallemand I'm not sure where. However, also keep in mind that a packet of Muntons Premium contains (off the top of my head) 6 grams and a packet of Notties contains 12 grams. That's a big difference in pitching rate. Have you compared 2 packets of Muntons with 1 packet of Notties to eliminate that? Differences in packaging may also lead to different aging; Lallemand packs in vacuum thick-walled barrier packets; Muntons in thin-walled barrier packets filled with either nitrogen or air, which allows for higher moisture levels.
I thought Northern Brewer implied that Munton's does produce yeast. Maybe Munton's yeast production is outsourced. But yes, yeast condition may affect beer outcome, which could explain it. I make 10-12 litre batches so I only pitch half packets anyway, and I wouldn't pitch a 6g pack in a full size batch. I suspect there is at least one place in Europe where dry yeast is 'cloned'. Crossmyloof told me some of their yeasts are cloned. They also have yeasts called Midland, Four and Five. CML told me these have similar performance to their obvious namesakes. They also told me their yeasts come from a company in Germany. They obviously now have Lalbrew kveik in their range, which is presumably a repack, so I expect others are repacks too. Maybe cloning means repackaging, in this instance. But I think the CML cheaper range is interesting, it's really cheap, and not as good as MJ, Lalbrew or Fermentis stuff IMO. It doesn't match up, so what is it?
MJ kit yeast is also Mauri 514, but in 5 gram packets.
That wouldn't surprise me, in some of the cheaper kits that suit a plain ale yeast, at least. The craft series kits have the craft series yeasts of course.
Brewferm is 100% repackaged Mauri; all three varieties.
Cool thanks. Can you explain how you know that 100%?
Good banter, cheers! It's about 85 degrees and clear blue skies here in Manchester UK today. No cloud, no rain. The world is changing in all sorts of ways.