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Dry yeasts identified - your opinions please!

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frankvw

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For a variety of reasons (hubris, a few beers and more curiosity than is good for me) I have taken it upon myself to try and work out what's really in those packets of Mangrove Jack's, Muntons, Morgans and other dry yeasts. What set me off was the fact that I have learned that Brewcraft definitely does not have their own yeast labs, and speaking with someone at Fermentis who let drop (beer is a wonderful thing!) that there is a facility in the UK that repacks Fermentis and Lallemand yeasts (and presumably others) for MJ and other brands. Nor is this surprising: MJ renamed and discontinued a few of their yeasts at the same time Lallemand revamped their product range and discontinued/renamed several of their products. So anyone can see what's really going on here. :)

Anyway. Based on the above and the product specs, this is what I've managed to identify so far.

Original dry yeast strains directly from production labs: (i.e. not repacked / rebranded):
Code:
Brand    |    Yeast        |    What I think it really is
Fermentis    |    S-04    English Ale    |    Classic Whitbread strain
Fermentis    |    US-05    American Ale    |    Classic Chico strain
Fermentis    |    WB-06    German Wheat    | 
Fermentis    |    K-97    German Ale    | 
Fermentis    |    S-33    General Purpose Ale    |    Classic Edme strain
Fermentis    |    T-58    Belgian Ale    | 
Fermentis    |    BE-256    Abbey Ale    | 
Fermentis    |    BE-134    Saison    | 
Fermentis    |    S-23    Berlin Lager    | 
Fermentis    |    S-189    Swiss Lager    | 
Fermentis    |    W34/70    Weihenstephan Lager    | 
                  
Lallemand    |        Abbaye Belgian Style Ale    | 
Lallemand    |        Belle Saison Belgian Saison Style    | 
Lallemand    |    BRY97    American West Coast Ale    | 
Lallemand    |        Diamond Lager    |    Weihenstephaner strain?
Lallemand    |        Köln Kolsch Style Ale    | 
Lallemand    |        London English Style Ale (f.k.a. ESB)    |    American Whitbread descendant?
Lallemand    |        Manchester    | 
Lallemand    |        Munich Classic  Style Ale    | 
Lallemand    |        Munich Wheat Ale    | 
Lallemand    |        New England American East Coast Style Ale    |    Classic Chico strain
Lallemand    |        Nottingham High Performance Ale Yeast    | 
Lallemand    |        Windsor British Style Ale Yeast    |    American Edme descendant?
                  
Mauribrew    |    514    Ale    |    Australian Edme descendant
Mauribrew    |    497    Lager    |    Cold-adapted S/Cerevisiae strain?
Mauribrew    |    1433    Weiss    |    Australian descendant of European Bavaria strain
I'm still working on AEB yeast from Italy (Agency of Enology of Brescia) which may be original strains or repacked/rebranded ones from one of the above production labs. As soon as I have managed to fathom out what's going on with their range I'll add it here.

Repacked / rebranded dry yeasts
Code:
Brand    |    Yeast        |    What I think it really is
Mangrove Jack's    |    M15    Empire Ale    |    Fermentis S-04
Mangrove Jack's    |    M20    Bavarian Wheat    |    Lallemand Munich Classic Wheat Ale Yeast
Mangrove Jack's    |    M21    Belgian Wit    |    Most likely Lallemand Munich Wheat Ale Yeast, possibly Mauribrew 1433 (these are fairly similar)
Mangrove Jack's    |    M29    French Saison    |    Lallemand Belle Saison
Mangrove Jack's    |    M31    Belgian Tripel    |    Fermentis BE-134
Mangrove Jack's    |    M36    Liberty Bell Ale    |    Lallemand London English Style Ale
Mangrove Jack's    |    M41    Belgian Ale    |    Lallemand Abbaye
Mangrove Jack's    |    M42    New World Strong Ale    |    Lallemand Nottingham ale yeast
Mangrove Jack's    |    M44    US West Coast    |    Lallemand BRY-97 West Coast Ale
Mangrove Jack's    |    M47    Belgian Abbey    |    Fermentis T-58
Mangrove Jack's    |    M54    Californian Lager    |    Lallemand Köln Kolsch style or Fermentis K-97 (these are quite similar, maybe the same strain)
Mangrove Jack's    |    M76    Bavarian Lager    |    Fermentis W34/70
Mangrove Jack's    |    M84    Bohemian Lager    |    Most likely Lallemand Diamond Lager, possibly Fermentis K-97 (not entirely sure)
                  
                  
Hambleton Bard    |    B1    Bulldog Brews Universal ale    |    Fermentis S-23
Hambleton Bard    |    B4    Bulldog Brews English Ale    |    Fermentis S-04
Hambleton Bard    |    B5    Bulldog Brews American West    |    Fermentis US-05
Hambleton Bard    |    B16    Bulldog Brews Belgian Saison    |    Fermentis BE-134
Hambleton Bard    |    B19    Bulldog Brews Belgian Trapix (sic)    |    Fermentis BE-256
Hambleton Bard    |    B23    Bulldog Brews Steam Lager    |    Fermentis S-23
Hambleton Bard    |    B34    Bulldog Brews German Lager    |    Fermentis W34/70
Hambleton Bard    |    B38    Bulldog Brews Amber Lager    |    Fermentis S-23
Hambleton Bard    |    B44    Bulldog Brews European Ale    |    Fermentis K-97
Hambleton Bard    |    B48    Bulldog Brews Bavarian Wheat    |    Fermentis WB-06
                  
Morgan's    |        Beer kit yeast    |    Mauribrew 514
Morgan's    |        Premium Lager Yeast    |    Fermentis S-23
Morgan's    |        Premium European Lager Yeast    |    Fermentis W34/70
Morgan's    |        Premium American Ale Yeast    |    Fermentis US-05
Morgan's    |        Premium Ale Yeast    |    Fermentis S-33
Morgan's    |        Premium Wheat Beer Yeast    |    Fermentis WB-06
Morgan's    |        Premium English Ale Yeast    |    Fermentis S-04
Coopers    |        Beer kit yeast    |    Mauribrew 514
                  
Brewferm    |    Y015    Blanche    |    Mauribrew 1433
Brewferm    |    Y016    Lager    |    Mauribrew 497
Brewferm    |        Top    |    Mauribrew 514
                  
Muntons    |        Standard  Yeast    |    Classic Edme strain
Muntons    |        Premium  Yeast    |    Nottingham ale yeast
Gervin (Muntons)    |    GV12    Ale Yeast    |    Nottingham ale yeast
I'm still working on Gozdawa yeast from Poland which I suspect is repacked/rebranded but not sure yet. Will report back when that info is in.

A few notes on comparing dry yeasts:
  • Mangrove Jack's descriptions re.family, flocculation, sedimentation, alcohol tolerance etc. are based on the old and incorrect Fermentis data sheets that have since been corrected.

  • Various yeast suppliers fudge the figures a little to hide the fact that they are reselling Fermentis and/or Lallemand yeasts.

  • Descriptions of sedimentation and flocculation should not be treated as exact; classifications as low, medium or high are to be taken as indicative at best.

  • Lallemand specifies flocculation characteristics but no sedimentation/compaction characteristics.
Special note should be taken of the fact that until recently Fermentis' product documentation was absolute rubbish. They have since fixed that up considerably, adjusting a lot of parameters and classifying their lager yeasts as S/Pastorianus (previously it was presented as S/Cerevisiae, which led even John Palmer to state in his earlier editions of How to Brew that these were ale strains adapted to low temperatures). Some suppliers who sell repacked/rebranded Fermentis yeasts still base their product details (alcohol tolerance, temperature range and what not) on the earlier incorrect Fermentis data sheets.

So at this point I would like your feedback! Do you agree or disagree with the above identifications of repacked / rebranded dry yeasts, and why? All corrections, additions and comments will help!!

// FvW
 

Pappers_

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I had read that Mangrove Jack was produced by other yeast labs - only used them once, I believe, a dry abbey yeast.

I've used the Lallemand's BRY79 West Coast Ale and like it - I assumed it was Chico, but your chart says their East Coast ale yeast is Chico.
 

dmtaylor

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I had read that Mangrove Jack was produced by other yeast labs - only used them once, I believe, a dry abbey yeast.

I've used the Lallemand's BRY79 West Coast Ale and like it - I assumed it was Chico, but your chart says their East Coast ale yeast is Chico.
BRY-97 is most closely related to bread yeasts. But a damn good one for making ales!
 

Silver_Is_Money

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I believe that @RPIScotty had a phone conversation with Lallemand wherein it was mentioned that their Abbaye yeast is a dry version of Chimay yeast. I hope he will jump in to confirm or correct me on this. If accurate, it should be akin to WLP500 and WY1214.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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Subscribed. And looking forward to seeing the tasty brewing experiments (and other compelling evidence) that support the claims that are being made.

:mug:
 

davidabcd

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I've been using Mangrove Jack's M-41 this year. It's been exceeding my expectations.
So who's making it, factually? What's the bottom line here and why is it bad or good? As nice as the spreadsheet is, I'm not certain I follow.
 

moreb33rplz

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I have nothing but my opinion to back this up, but I really doubt Lallemand New England East Coast Ale is the Chico strain
 

dmtaylor

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I've been using Mangrove Jack's M-41 this year. It's been exceeding my expectations.
So who's making it, factually? What's the bottom line here and why is it bad or good? As nice as the spreadsheet is, I'm not certain I follow.
I'm not 100% positive without running side by side experiments, but as a betting man, I'm betting that it's repackaged Fermentis SafAle BE-256. If you run side by side with BE-256 (or anything else), please report your results. :)
 

dmtaylor

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I have nothing but my opinion to back this up, but I really doubt Lallemand New England East Coast Ale is the Chico strain
I'm postulating that it comes closest to either Wyeast 1968 London ESB or 1388 Belgian Strong Ale. Attenuation might provide a clue. If close to 69%, might be 1968. If close to 83%, might be 1388. Or, almost equally likely, it's neither one, maybe. Obviously more experiments are needed. Again, if you run any side by side experiments, please let us know the results.
 

sykesey

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K-97 = 1007

I don't think the Koln strain is k-97, it flocculates and tastes a lot better. I could be wrong though.
 
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frankvw

frankvw

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I've used the Lallemand's BRY79 West Coast Ale and like it - I assumed it was Chico, but your chart says their East Coast ale yeast is Chico.
Well, that's what we need to work out. Based on published product data, New England American East Coast is Chico. But I'm publishing this in hopes of getting corrections and better input, so feel free! :)
 
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frankvw

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I believe that @RPIScotty had a phone conversation with Lallemand wherein it was mentioned that their Abbaye yeast is a dry version of Chimay yeast. I hope he will jump in to confirm or correct me on this. If accurate, it should be akin to WLP500 and WY1214.
Funny you should say that. In another post I already explained why I completely disagree with that. In short, Abbaye is POF- so it can't be Chimay or WLP50x. Not sure what it is but a Trappist or Abbey yeast (or even a proper Belgian yeast) it's not.

EDIT: Oops. I confused Lallemand Abbaye with Fermentis Abbaye (BE-256) here.

That said, I have my doubts about Lallemand Abbaye being Chimay (WLP500) in dried form. I seem to remember that WPL500 didn't take kindly to being dried and performed poorly after rehydration. Perhaps Lallemand Abbaye is close to WLP500 in flavour profile; that I can believe. References to the Lallemand/Chimay connection would be appreciated.
 
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frankvw

frankvw

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I believe that @RPIScotty had a phone conversation with Lallemand wherein it was mentioned that their Abbaye yeast is a dry version of Chimay yeast. I hope he will jump in to confirm or correct me on this. If accurate, it should be akin to WLP500 and WY1214.
Funny you should say that. In another post I already explained why I completely disagree with this. In short, BE-256 (Abbaye) is POF- which means it can't be Chimay or WLP50x or its Wyeast equivalents. Not sure what it is, but a Trappist or Abbey (or even proper Belgian yeast) it's not.
 
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frankvw

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Subscribed. And looking forward to seeing the tasty brewing experiments (and other compelling evidence) that support the claims that are being made.
Well, as I said I've based the above on lining up the product data (flavor profiles, temperature ranges, alcohol tolerances, sedimentation/flocculation etc. as published by the suppliers.

Ideally we should run them all through a DNA sequencer, but that's a little beyond my capacities at the moment. :)
 
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frankvw

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I've been using Mangrove Jack's M-41 this year. It's been exceeding my expectations. So who's making it, factually? What's the bottom line here and why is it bad or good? As nice as the spreadsheet is, I'm not certain I follow.
See above: as far as I can tell M41 is Lallemand Abbaye. Which is neither good nor bad, it's just some info to clarify things a little and tell us what we're really putting into our beer and what we can substitute if a certain yeast product happens to be unavailable.
 
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frankvw

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I have nothing but my opinion to back this up, but I really doubt Lallemand New England East Coast Ale is the Chico strain
I'm interested to know what that opinion is based on. I'm basing mine on published product data, but I'm not necessarily right.
 
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frankvw

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I'm not 100% positive without running side by side experiments, but as a betting man, I'm betting that [M41 is] repackaged Fermentis SafAle BE-256. If you run side by side with BE-256 (or anything else), please report your results. :)
MJ M41: Temperature range 18-28 deg C; attenuation 82-88%; flocculation medium, sedimentation medium, alcohol tolerance 12%, clove flavours (i.e. POF+)

BE-256: Temp. range 12-25C; attenuation 90%; flocculation high, sedimentation high, alcohol tolerance 11%, POF-

Lallemand Abbaye: Temp. range 17-25C, attenuation high, flocculation med-high; sedimentation unspecified; ABV 14%, spicy phenols (i.e. POF+)

So Lallemand Abbaye seems a much better candidate than BE-256. Temperature ranges and flocculation/sedimentation specs are somewhat flexible, but POF+ vs. POF- is not.

My five cents... :)
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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Well, as I said I've based the above on lining up the product data (flavor profiles, temperature ranges, alcohol tolerances, sedimentation/flocculation etc. as published by the suppliers.
Assuming the data is accurate for the individual dry yeast strains, this could be a useful point in time summary document. References to original sources (perhaps along with archiving those sources) would definitely be helpful in confirming that the data is correct, especially for the "what it really is" column.

Did these questions go unanswered (or did I miss the reply)?

So who's making it, factually? What's the bottom line here and why is it bad or good? As nice as the spreadsheet is, I'm not certain I follow.
 
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frankvw

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Assuming the data is accurate for the individual dry yeast strains, this could be a useful point in time summary document. References to original sources (perhaps along with archiving those sources) would definitely be helpful in confirming that the data is correct, especially for the "what it really is" column. Did these questions go unanswered (or did I miss the reply)?
Not sure if you missed it or I misunderstood you. The data is based on what the suppliers themselves have published (data sheets, product catalogues etc). The "what it really is" column is the result of my lining up the numbers and descriptions.

Is that what you meant?
 

Silver_Is_Money

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@frankvw, in post #17 above you proclaim that Lallemand Abbaye is POF-, but in your spreadsheet it is listed as POF+. Please clarify as to which it is?
 
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@frankvw, in post #17 above you proclaim that Lallemand Abbaye is POF-, but in your spreadsheet it is listed as POF+. Please clarify as to which it is?
Lallemand Abbaye is POF+, Fermentis Abbaye (BE-256) is POF-. See post #22 above. :) Of course it doesn't help that Lallemand and Fermentis both have a yeast called "Abbaye" which are completely different. I wonder if either of them will eventually rename this yeast. Fermentis did that with US-56 which (now US-05) to avoid conflicts with another yeast from a different yeast lab (can't remember which one).
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Lallemand Abbaye is POF+, Fermentis Abbaye (BE-256) is POF-. See post #22 above. :) Of course it doesn't help that Lallemand and Fermentis both have a yeast called "Abbaye" which are completely different. I wonder if either of them will eventually rename this yeast. Fermentis did that with US-56 which (now US-05) to avoid conflicts with another yeast from a different yeast lab (can't remember which one).
Thanks! Perhaps you should edit post #17.
 

dmtaylor

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Funny you should say that. In another post I already explained why I completely disagree with that. In short, Abbaye is POF- so it can't be Chimay or WLP50x. Not sure what it is but a Trappist or Abbey yeast (or even a proper Belgian yeast) it's not.
I think we're still confusing the two Abbaye yeasts. Fermentis had one and renamed it to BE-256, while Lallemand has one that seems to be entirely different, not the same strain, based on 10% differences in attenuation. I believe BOTH might actually be POF-. More experiment taste trials needed to confirm.

One of them could be WLP540 which is also POF- and British in origin. The other, well, who knows. Maybe WLP515 Antwerp which is actually pastorianus and quite clean.
 
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dmtaylor

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MJ M41: Temperature range 18-28 deg C; attenuation 82-88%; flocculation medium, sedimentation medium, alcohol tolerance 12%, clove flavours (i.e. POF+)

BE-256: Temp. range 12-25C; attenuation 90%; flocculation high, sedimentation high, alcohol tolerance 11%, POF-

Lallemand Abbaye: Temp. range 17-25C, attenuation high, flocculation med-high; sedimentation unspecified; ABV 14%, spicy phenols (i.e. POF+)

So Lallemand Abbaye seems a much better candidate than BE-256. Temperature ranges and flocculation/sedimentation specs are somewhat flexible, but POF+ vs. POF- is not.

My five cents... :)
EDIT: The comment I had here previously was deleted because now I need to think about whether M47 really is T-58, vs. Lallemand Abbaye. Hmm..........
 
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Silver_Is_Money

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moreb33rplz

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I'm interested to know what that opinion is based on. I'm basing mine on published product data, but I'm not necessarily right.
It just doesn't pass the sniff test. Discussions I've read about Lallemand New England East Coast Ale suggest it is a dried Conan - very different from Chico. East Coast, and especially New England, names imply a british/conan yeast. It would be like calling a traditional german lager yeast California Lager, it just doesn't make sense.

Are you basing this chart on published flocculation/attenuation/temp range info of the various strains? If so, I don't trust the results. That information is a good data point but won't tell you everything - there are tons of yeasts with similar published characteristics that still differ widely in how they behave and what kind of flavor components they produce.

Or if I'm wrong please enlighten me how the list is compiled
 

Silver_Is_Money

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OK, this thread led to my emailing Lallemand today in regard to the nature of Lallemand Abbaye. To summarize the response I received from one of their technicians (along with his permission to summarize it in public):

1) Lallemand's genetic analysis confirms that their Abbaye is very similar to other popular commercial strains that claim to be the Chimay strain.

2) Lallemand Abbaye is POF+

3) Several popular commercial strains which (mainly anecdotally) claim to be Chimay yeast are in fact genetically different.
 

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OK, this thread led to my emailing Lallemand today in regard to the nature of Lallemand Abbaye. To summarize the response I received from one of their technicians (along with his permission to summarize it in public):

1) Lallemand's genetic analysis confirms that their Abbaye is very similar to other popular commercial strains that claim to be the Chimay strain.

2) Lallemand Abbaye is POF+

3) Several popular commercial strains which (mainly anecdotally) claim to be Chimay yeast are in fact genetically different.

Was about to chime in with RPIScotty's post about their claim of similarities to Wyeast and White Labs Chimay Strains:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29575.15

That one specifically said it was sourced from a Trappist brewery. It's conjecture, but I believe some of the major differences in Abbaye (it flocculates quite well compared to WLP500/WY1214) could be due to the time it was sourced, and just the possibility that the specific isolate at the time had slightly different properties. In my experience, it is quite similar to those yeasts in flavor, perhaps less prone to extreme banana esters.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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The Lallemand tech. that I emailed implicitly made no claim as to the specific origin of their Abbaye or (for that matter) any other commercial strain claiming affinity to Chimay, and I got the distinct impression that (likely, I infer, due to continual evolution, if for no other reason) there is simply no way for anyone to make a legitimate claim with regard to having an "original" Chimay yeast strain. Perhaps to the evolutionary driven degree that Chimay themselves at this juncture can't even make this claim (with this last injection being my inference via logical extension, and not that of Lallemand).
 
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Vale71

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The Lallemand tech. that I emailed implicitly made no claim as to the specific origin of their Abbaye or (for that matter) any other commercial strain claiming affinity to Chimay, and I got the distinct impression that (likely, I infer, due to continual evolution, if for no other reason) there is simply no way for anyone to make a legitimate claim with regard to having an "original" Chimay yeast strain. Perhaps to the evolutionary driven degree that Chimay themselves at this juncture can't even make this claim (with this last injection being my inference via logical extension, and not that of Lallemand).
Of course there is a way, you just need to compare the two yeasts at the genetic level, easily done nowadays. I suspect the reason yeast suppliers won't reference commercial breweries might have more to do with possible legal issues. Trademarks and all that.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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My inference was intended to be understood such that the Chimay Trappist Monastery's brewery is potentially using a yeast today which noticeably differs genetically from the yeast they were using back in the 1980's when they made their big splash in the USA, let alone the yeast that they used in the decades (to centuries) preceding the 1980's.
 
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