Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[WortMonger]

That will work to release pressure at 25psi. You will not be able to hold pressures lower or higher than that with that valve. This product would be better for controlling pressures and would work in more applications such as counter-pressure transfers, #99045K11. This is what I use right now, but would like to go to the last one I showed you.

 

[Kirbuno]

Thanks for the reply, I think I ordered this not noticing the bottom limitation. However they lied, as I am holding an even pressure at 10 psi, and have been for the last 14 hours, anyway. The thing happily works outside of the rating given on the site, and it is cheap too!.
I am really trying to get a grip on what to do when it comes time to go to the secondary. I seen somewhere where you were sorry you cut your center tube and I don't get how to get the beer out with leaving most of the trub in the Sankey. I think I am missing something somewhere, or is that the reason for the fancy filtering you talked about? I was thinking that the filtering came after the secondary?

 

[Kirbuno]

FYI I just found that Dgonza9 used a relief valve similar to the one I got and just a little more money. I think his (part # 48935K25) is most probably a better choice than the one I got, at least the specs are better!

Adding to my comment I see that Dgonza9''s will only go up to 20 psi., where mine will go to 50 with just the one yellow spring.

 

[WortMonger]

Yes, I cut my diptube and wish I hadn't. You can use your testing spigot to pour out a pint or two of the heaviest trub/sediment prior to connecting up your transferring setup, provided the keg doesn't get moved around. Then, if you start your transfer slowly and move to a higher psi for transfer you should be almost sediment free in your transfer. Make sure your psi is just a bit lower in your target keg before you start the counter-pressure transfer, or you could suck up more junk negating the pre-transfer pouring.

 

[WortMonger]

Kirbuno, I would bet you are venting the CO2 made at that level right now. Once the ferment really kicks off I bet you will shoot up to 25+ psi, or it will vent and you will stay at 25psi. If I'm wrong I would like to know, but only time will tell. Please keep me informed if I am right about the valve.

My first spunding valve was made with the valve you just mentioned (#48935K25). The problem with that one is it only goes up to 20 psi. I recommend 0-60psi so all your bases are covered and the valve is truly for universal use in your brewhouse. That is just my recommendation based on how I use mine mind you. I had to lower my temperature to use that one as I needed it used. Now, I only have to look at the temperature I am at and set my valve at the recommended pressure at that temperature, which is way more flexible a setup than before.

 

[Kirbuno]

WortMonger, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that is the case. I was away when the fermentation finally started getting some pressure built up, and since I didn't know where to set my valve the pressure was at 15psi when I noticed it. I was able to back that off to 12 psi, then to 10 where I was intending to keep it. It still feels like I could back it off further but wanted to keep it at 10 psi. When this first batch is complete I will know for sure how this works.

BTW the valve is letting out a constant flow of CO2 so it would definity climb if I closed it further.

Thanks for the tip on transferring to the corny keg. By testing spigot, I assume you mean my party spigot hooked to the liquid side of the Sankey tap? I think all that is left for me is the waiting.

 

[WortMonger]

By testing spigot, I assume you mean my party spigot hooked to the liquid side of the Sankey tap? I think all that is left for me is the waiting.

Yep, just pour off a pint or two with your fermenting setup once finished, then hook up your transferring setup and fire away. Waiting is the hardest part isn't it? LOL:rockin:

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Will a corney accept a dip tube on the gas in side? What do you guys think about attaching a stainless carb stone on the in line while pushing to transfer. Would you gain much carbonation during the transfer?

 

[SankePankey]

Ok, changes made and hopefully everyone will be happy now!

Wiki has a new link!

First post in this thread has a new link!

Ok, now get to brewing/experimenting/sharing with this technique so we can really run up the post count, lol. Thanks again guys!

OMG! Thanks for liking my summary Wort! Your a hero.
Party on Wayne.

 

[SankePankey]

SankeyPankey mentioned in post #914:
"I have a bottom dump, so pretend I have a conical re: harvesting yeast. I harvest after racking and after gradually depressurizing the two fermenters back to atmospheric pressure."

Now I'm really confused!? how do you rack then harvest the yeast? Do you have a photo or diagram of what you did? I looked but can't find anything yet, if you have post #s that would be great!
Thanks to all for a great thread!

My 3 gal corny is also my starter vessel. I push it into the primary, then put a gas dip tube in so there's no liquid dip tube. It stays that way thru primary and I put my spunding valve on the corny. After crashing, I'll rack by pushing CO2 from the corny into the sanke. I'll have cleared my dip tube from any gunk from having taken gravity samples with my cobra tap. After racking I (gently, with the spunding valve) depressurize the ganged duo and then take the hose and clamp it to the bottom dump and dump the whole cake into the corny and have my way with it after that.

Those fittings you see that aren't corny posts are corny posts welded to tri-clamp caps- to give me threadless in and out and marry to my other stuff (filter, counterpressure devices, tubing, etc on tri-clamps).

This pic is cold crashing before racking to secondary (I missed my opportunity to dry hop before the end of primary).

 

[cmuench]

For me I want this technique to be simple and reproducible.

I've done the technique many times and I think it's both.

But clue me in to what I'm missing...

I have a blow off tube on for 48 hours. Then put my spunding valve on closed and let it pressure up. Then bleed it down to my target psi to get 2.4 vols of CO2 at my fermentation temp. I shake the keg frequently and watch my gravity. When it's done, crash cool for a couple of days, pour off the first pint or two. Filter and serve.

The beer has been awesome.

Am I just getting lucky? Other guys are making the process more complicated or labor intensive. What are you guys trying to accomplish or avoid?

 

[jeepinjeepin]

For me I want this technique to be simple and reproducible.

I've done the technique many times and I think it's both.

But clue me in to what I'm missing...

I have a blow off tube on for 48 hours. Then put my spunding valve on closed and let it pressure up. Then bleed it down to my target psi to get 2.4 vols of CO2 at my fermentation temp. I shake the keg frequently and watch my gravity. When it's done, crash cool for a couple of days, pour off the first pint or two. Filter and serve.

The beer has been awesome.

Am I just getting lucky? Other guys are making the process more complicated or labor intensive. What are you guys trying to accomplish or avoid?

What you are doing sounds very similar to what a local German reinheitsgebot brewery does. They have valves on their conditioning tanks that when closed force pressure through the spunding valves. I don't know their procedure for times and pressures. Are you brewing lagers and ales? Is it possible to reach pressures high enough to carb at ale temps?

 

[flananuts]

Is there a reason you are using a blowoff tube then putting your spending valve in? Is that due to the size of your batch vs fermentor? I brew 11gal in a 15.5 gal and once I pitch the starter I only monitor my pressure and slowly ratchet down the valve to hit my desired pressures. I don't do secondaries anymore and have yet to have any issues since doing my beers under pressure. At about 75% attenuation I ramp up to 16psi at 40 degrees and then when I lager I maintain 14psi. The beer is never agitated and then when counter pressure filled to the serving kegs it's fresh beer on tap.

 

[cmuench]

What you are doing sounds very similar to what a local German reinheitsgebot brewery does. They have valves on their conditioning tanks that when closed force pressure through the spunding valves. I don't know their procedure for times and pressures. Are you brewing lagers and ales? Is it possible to reach pressures high enough to carb at ale temps?

I'm only doing ales. I haven't had any trouble fully carbonating at ale temps.

 

[cmuench]

Is there a reason you are using a blowoff tube then putting your spending valve in? Is that due to the size of your batch vs fermentor? I brew 11gal in a 15.5 gal and once I pitch the starter I only monitor my pressure and slowly ratchet down the valve to hit my desired pressures. I don't do secondaries anymore and have yet to have any issues since doing my beers under pressure. At about 75% attenuation I ramp up to 16psi at 40 degrees and then when I lager I maintain 14psi. The beer is never agitated and then when counter pressure filled to the serving kegs it's fresh beer on tap.

I'm doing 15 gal batches.

My spunding valve would plug with hop particulate at high krausen the first couple of days. I couldn't control the pressure so it was a real PIA. This is a good hybrid for me.

I'm just trying to better understand the science behind why guys do what they do.

 

[storunner13]

I used a blowoff and then put in my spunding valve to carbonate for my very first 'attempt' (As I recall...I wanted to brew..but the pressure release valve hadn't arrived yet!) It works, and I'm planning on doing the same for some belgians (though I might try both a pressure ferment, and a keg-with-blowoff ferment to see the differences). However, I've done three 5 gallon batches (maybe even closer to 5.1 gallons) in a cornies, with FermCap and only a spunding valve with no blow off coming through. Granted, I've only used american yeasts..but it works!

cmuench, have you considered using the high gravity technique to have a completely closed system? I'd been toying with the idea...but since I haven't had any blowoff/clogging problems, I haven't tried it.

 

[flananuts]

ah I see, nice pulling off 15 gallons in 15.5 gallon sanke. I'm not that cool. I read through some online material that charted the effects of pressure on yeast during their phases which graphically showed the rise and retreat of Diacetyl and other less desirable flavors. The one thing I took away was that high pressure during the early stages was unhealthy for the yeast and higher pressure towards the latter part of the process increased Diacetyl reabsorption/removal.

My approach is pure art/luck/attempt at understanding science. I keep the pressure at 2psi for the first week to attempt to not overstress the yeast. Usually after a week, when lagering, I'm about 50% attenuated at 48 degrees. I then ramp the pressure up to 10psi through 80%att. and then up to 16psi where I begin my lagering. Ales go a heck of a lot faster, usually in serving kegs in under 3 weeks.

 

[1MadScientist]

OK, wish me luck, I'm + 30 hours into the world of pressure fermenting. I chose to use cornys and picked a basic recipe of an APA to kick this off; 9 # 2-row, 8 oz biscuit, 8 oz carapils and 1 # of golden naked oats with 3.6 oz FWH of Palisades and US-05.

Follow me on Flickr; http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscientistbrewhaus/

The Mad Scientist

 

[kpr121]

OK, wish me luck, I'm + 30 hours into the world of pressure fermenting. I chose to use cornys and picked a basic recipe of an APA to kick this off; 9 # 2-row, 8 oz biscuit, 8 oz carapils and 1 # of golden naked oats with 3.6 oz FWH of Palisades and US-05.

Follow me on Flickr; http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscientistbrewhaus/

The Mad Scientist

Interested to see how your pressure ferment goes. Looks like you have quite a bit more wort in your cornies than I did, and I had about a quart or so of blowoff through the spunding valve. Hows it going?

 

[cmuench]

cmuench, have you considered using the high gravity technique to have a completely closed system? I'd been toying with the idea...but since I haven't had any blowoff/clogging problems, I haven't tried it.

I'm not sure what the high gravity technique is...

 

[1MadScientist]

Interested to see how your pressure ferment goes. Looks like you have quite a bit more wort in your cornies than I did, and I had about a quart or so of blowoff through the spunding valve. Hows it going?

Well, I'm at + 47 hours and nothing yet.

To give a little more background info; I have keyed off of Poindexter's threads and videos where he was pressure testing his new spunding valve with the valve riding on its own tank. It looks like a good idea. I'm not sure though if he has done this with a batch yet. Maybe it takes longer for the pressure to build in the empty tank before I get a pressure reading at the gauge?

As far as the volume of wort goes, I didn't quite get the 5 gallons minus 3 pints target. I am about an inch below that. I also put in 20 drops (double) of fermcap. See my photostream dated between 9/19/11 and 9/21/11.

The photo showing the full corny with wort is associated with the corny fermenting with the blow off hose. I measured 3 pints of blow off in the bucket on that batch.

Any feedback is welcomed on my process. Thanks for looking...

 

[WortMonger]

I'm not sure what the high gravity technique is...

Here you go!

 

[cmuench]

Here you go!

Interesting. Thx.

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, I'm at + 47 hours and nothing yet.

After I came home from work last night, it was + 60 hours into the fermentation and still nothing, so I opened the corny lid and found it happily fermenting away. I applied about 15-20 psi to my 'empty' keg to seat the seal on the primary. I re-attached the spunding valve and it quickly started releasing pressure to my set point of 10.5 psi.

Currently I'm at + 72 hours and it's maintaining 11 psi, 62-63 degrees, and a measured Brix reading calculated at 1.021 with carbonation present.

I'll check the gravity tonight where I should be within the 2 points from estimated FG.

Lessons learned: A mere 5 psi with no lube on the o-ring wasn't good enough. Use CIP-Film and apply 10-15 psi to seat the seal, then release the pressure. Seal should hold.

Does anybody see anything I should be doing differently? Thanks...

 

[WortMonger]

Yep, that is why I don't use cornies. Sankes require no setting with pressure to seat themselves. Glad your beer was working.

 

[Dgonza9]

A while back I saw someone counterpressure transferring carbed beer to corny serving kegs. He hooked up to the liquid inlet of one corny, then used a jumper cable from the gas outlet, to the liquid inlet of corny #2. He used a spund valve on the gas outlet of corny #2.

I tried this out the other day and it worked fine, except my pin lock gas disconnect kind of leaked. Not a huge amount, but enough to bother me.

Is this par for the course? Does this only work with ball lock kegs? Or is it possible I have a bad gas disconnect on there?

The liquid leaked out of the top of the gas disconnect.

Thanks for the opinions. Cheers!

 

[SankePankey]

I came up with something I like better than that. I don't like how the liquid level is all the way to the top with that method. Gonna get some beer in the gas lines when you hook it up and it will eventually smell unless you clean them. Also, zero headspace gives no buffer to do things like a force carb 'top off' from the tank. Also, I just wanted the same volume transferred per keg.

So, the thread is below and the video. I'm a little more graceful at the transfer now than the video suggests.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cl...tion-technique-44344/index39.html#post2315991




A short explanation is : If all three serving vessels are at the same pressure, you can counterpressure fill them at the same pace and end with the same volume of transfer. Hook up the serving vessels to the same gas manifold and put the spunding valve on it. As long as you 'prime' the transfer to get the liquid flowing, you should get a relatively equal transfer.

FYI- I have yet to try this without that weird conglomeration of parts and not just a barb cross. I wonder if it would work. I thought that a straight path and two 90 degree paths might not fill at the same pace, but don't know from experience. Also if you do this, make sure you get a gas manifold without check valves since it's operating in reverse.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dgonza9]

Good way to go. Thanks. I like the tri clover you're using there. Is the dip tube welded on or something? Looks like just a 1/2" npt on top, no?

 

[SankePankey]

No (... and yes)

Those fittings you see me using are tc caps welded to corny posts. I can use regular corny dip tubes with them. I clamp them to elbow barbs during primary.

I do have a tc x dip tube weld though too. I use it in a similar way but so I can have variable depths in the vessel to sample from. (wait for it... wait for it...) Why you ask? One reason is that's how I decant in place with my 3 gal corny. I use a dip tube o-ring and push it down on the bulkhead with a compression nut to create the seal and push to decant/rack. I can decant everything except the yeast cake on the bottom, then shake her up and push pitch into the primary.

I guess it's a little overkill cause I could cut several dip tubes to different lengths to achieve the same thing thru a ball lock, but I can sincerely say that never has anyone ever accused me of overkill. Never.

 

[Mysticmead]

I tried this out the other day and it worked fine, except my pin lock gas disconnect kind of leaked. Not a huge amount, but enough to bother me.

Is this par for the course? Does this only work with ball lock kegs? Or is it possible I have a bad gas disconnect on there?

The liquid leaked out of the top of the gas disconnect.

Thanks for the opinions. Cheers!

if you had liquid leak out the top of the QD, then gas would leak as well. either take it apart and clean it, or replace it... its cheap enough that I'd probably just replace it.

 

[storunner13]

Lessons learned: A mere 5 psi with no lube on the o-ring wasn't good enough. Use CIP-Film and apply 10-15 psi to seat the seal, then release the pressure. Seal should hold.

It is a little bit more of a hassle, but Cornies are what I have right now...and they work (plus I can't do more than 5 gallons yet... ). I find that that some lids work better than others, and since the opening is pretty close to a circle, there is some wiggle room with the way the lid seats. If you make sure that it's spot on the center (not slightly askew) it ought to seat with no added pressure (or lube).

kpr121: Did you use FermCap? I think that must be the reason why I don't get blowoff through my spunding valve during a pressure ferment. The pressure along with the FermCap keeps that krausen down..even with a full 5+ gallons in there (they actually hold 5.25ish gallons when full). You could even saw off your gas in dip tube to get a little more room for Krausen before it starts blowing off.

 

[kpr121]

kpr121: Did you use FermCap? I think that must be the reason why I don't get blowoff through my spunding valve during a pressure ferment. The pressure along with the FermCap keeps that krausen down..even with a full 5+ gallons in there (they actually hold 5.25ish gallons when full). You could even saw off your gas in dip tube to get a little more room for Krausen before it starts blowing off.

I did use Fermcap (around 1.5-2 drops per gallon). I think my problem was that I accidently quickly released the pressure (from 10 psi to 0 - I pulled the QD off and forgot that I removed the poppets) about 2 days into fermentation. That started the blowoff and it kept going for about 24-36 hours. I think as I get the process down I will just keep the pressure on it the entire time. I will definitely cut some or all of my gas diptubes as well, there is no reason for them to be longer than a half inch or so, right? To me they are pretty pointless altogether other than being a place for the O-ring to seat.

Thanks for the ideas.

 

[1MadScientist]

I took a sample this morning and wow, finished at 1.008 for now. I will take my true FG once I am ready to drink it. I have 1.5 volumes of Co2 at 11 psi and 65*F. Ok, beer is chilling down to my crash temperature of 35*F.

I know that I'm well below half of carbonation, notes I took from WM says "27.8 psi @ 65*F". I was concentrating on reaching a good FG by shaking the keg over the last few days and taking sips and samples. There's nothing to do now but wait 1 week, then my first counter-pressure transfer experience, woo.

 

[1MadScientist]

Will I be ok using a 10' x 3/16" hose for counter pressure transfer like Poindexter's thread shows? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/spunding-valve-video-49364/

What does everybody else use?

 

[flananuts]

I use micromatic 1/8" tubing from my filter to two cornies from the keg fermentor. The length of mine are about 18" in length. Since I pressurize the corny just under the fermentor pressure and use co2 to push it I don't have any trouble. I imagine using a linger fill tube would have the same effect as it does in my kegerator.

 

[kpr121]

I use a foot long piece of 3/16" tubing for my counter pressure transfers. If you set the pressure on your spunding valve only slightly lower than C02 regulator pressure, I doubt the length (or diameter) matters at all. The reason why people put the long lines in their kegerators is because the outlet pressure is essential zero, so they need to make up the difference by adding resistance in the line.

 

[Dgonza9]

if you had liquid leak out the top of the QD, then gas would leak as well. either take it apart and clean it, or replace it... its cheap enough that I'd probably just replace it.

Good point. I only use this one for transfer so that never occured to me. In the trash it goes.

 

[flananuts]

Quick update on latest completed pressure fermented beer

I just poured the first pints of my pilsner that I did under pressure.
O.G 1.058
F.G 1.01
Yeast. Wyeast Pils yeast
Pitched starter in O2 aerated wort at 48 degrees internal temp
First week of pressure at 2 psi through 50% att.
Ramped pressure to 10psi through 80%
dropped temp to 33 degrees for 4 weeks at 16psi
No D Rest needed again

The finished product is great and crystal clear SWMBO approved

 

[kpr121]

Quick update on latest completed pressure fermented beer

I just poured the first pints of my pilsner that I did under pressure.
O.G 1.058
F.G 1.01
Yeast. Wyeast Pils yeast
Pitched starter in O2 aerated wort at 48 degrees internal temp
First week of pressure at 2 psi through 50% att.
Ramped pressure to 10psi through 80%
dropped temp to 33 degrees for 4 weeks at 16psi
No D Rest needed again

The finished product is great and crystal clear SWMBO approved

Awesome! So its been about 6 weeks? That aint bad for a pils!

 

[MalFet]

Sincere thanks to everyone on this thread. This is a mighty tome of information. I'm now seriously considering pressurized fermentation for its simplicity (and because getting CO2 refills is a major pain where I live), but I have a few questions. (Apologies if these have been discussed already...I did my due diligence reading this thread and wiki, but, like I said: mighty tome.)

1) I'd like to ferment in a quarter-keg sanke and then bottle straight from there. I've got CO2 tanks, hookups, and a Blichmann BeerGun. Could I gradually (over several hours) bleed the pressure down on the sanke to 3-4 PSI, use my CO2 cylinder to push, and fill from there?

2) If I did something like this, could I successfully harvest yeast? I gather that depressurizing too quickly will give yeast the bends. I'm not looking to do anything perpetual, but a three or four batches from each fresh pitch would be nice

3) Hmm...lots more, but let's start with those.

Thanks for the great thread all, especially to WortMonger for starting it and SankePankey for the very helpful summary.