Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[lorne17]

I Initially worried about transfers and trub and dry hopping, but after more research and some testing of my own, I went ultra simple. I ferment, dry hop and serve right out of the same keg. I use this.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/r...t-60-cm-silicone-dip-tube-fermentasaurus.html

It's a much cheaper version of that cask widget thing and it works great.My beers don't stay around for longer than a couple of weeks so I'm not worried about autolysis or oxidation issues. I get a more efficient use out of my kegs this way(fermenting multiple beers at same time) with less cleanup. since I fill to the seam with lagers or ales I make sure to remove the gas valve and run a blow off tube for the first couple days. Then I throw on spunding valve and let it finish.

Thanks for the response. I can't finish a batch in a couple weeks. I usually take a couple months to finish a keg. How long would the beer last with your method?

I'm thinking about getting a 7.75 gallon quarter keg for fermenting only. Gives me the headspace I would need and I can transfer to another keg when ready to serve.

However how do you clean these kegs? Do I need to buy the $80-100 valve removal tool?

Any tips or thoughts on using a Sankey coupler for fermenting?

Thanks,
Lorne

 

[gnor]

You don't need that tool. You can find videos on YouTube that show you how to take the spear out.

 

[FunkedOut]

Any tips or thoughts on using a Sankey coupler for fermenting?

Not sure about using the coupler and spear, but have a look at this solution:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/so-you-want-to-use-a-commercial-keg-for-fermenting-huh.584147/

I waivered back and forth between a snake solution and the 10 gallon corny before finding a ‘deal’ on corny’s.
You give this all a test drive in a 5 gallon corny for cheap, just to see if it’s your thing. Then decide to throw more money at it later.

 

[arrasmithf]

Thanks for the response. I can't finish a batch in a couple weeks. I usually take a couple months to finish a keg. How long would the beer last with your method?

I'm thinking about getting a 7.75 gallon quarter keg for fermenting only. Gives me the headspace I would need and I can transfer to another keg when ready to serve.

However how do you clean these kegs? Do I need to buy the $80-100 valve removal tool?

Any tips or thoughts on using a Sankey coupler for fermenting?

Thanks,
Lorne

I like the 5 gallon corny kegs because i can get my arm in there and clean them, plus you don't need any special tools, and parts are easy to find for them. I don't think having beer in the keg for a couple of months would even be a problem, especially if it's cold. I would save the money and spend on more corny kegs. Then you can either double up your batches or have several different beers going at once.

 

[crane]

I only ferment in sanke kegs now for the past 3-4 years. No special tools needed to remove the spear, just pliers and a screw driver. I have 2 of the 7.5 gallon quarters for 5 gallon batches and a few half barrels for 10 gallon batches.

If I'm not dry hopping I use the standard sanke spear and coupler. If I do dry hop I use one of the sanke fermentor conversion kits with a screen over the dip tube.

As for cleaning I built a keg/carboy washer that works great. No need to stick your hands in there to apply any elbow grease.

 

[Dory Rules]

What a thread! Just finished it. I'm new to home brewing, and I'm looking at a Fermentasaurus. I have a couple questions for those that use conicals or kegs modified with a bottom dump.
1. When do you dump the trub, and how often?
2. What is your process, both when trying to save the yeast and not?
I've seen the question asked a couple times, but never answered. My initial thoughts based on reading the thread would be to do an initial dump just before ramping up the pressure, and again after cold crash just before transferring to the serving keg.
Make sense, or am I off base?
Thanks for all the expertise here!

 

[lorne17]

I have a quick question: I just brewed and am fermenting my first batch in my half barrel sanke keg. I just put the spear in and threw on a spunding valve.

I have plenty of head space for a 5 gallon batch however do I need a blowoff tube for a while? Or is spunding from the start ok? I have it set to 15 psi for an IPA.

Thanks,
Lorne

 

[schematix]

You can spund from the start if you're positive you won't get blow off into the spund valve.

I normally do a blow off for a few days because that's easiest for me. I also don't trust the poppets on the corny and QDs to not get plugged. It has never happened to me but i also hate cleaning the gunk out of them each brew day.

 

[lorne17]

You can spund from the start if you're positive you won't get blow off into the spund valve.

I normally do a blow off for a few days because that's easiest for me. I also don't trust the poppets on the corny and QDs to not get plugged. It has never happened to me but i also hate cleaning the gunk out of them each brew day.

Thanks for the quick response. I have 6 gallons of beer in a 15.5 gallon half barrel keg. So I'm positive I won't get any blowoff. However I did notice there was no pressure in there this morning. About 7-8 hours after I pitched the yeast. Hopefully that'll be different tonight. Should I push some CO2 in there to purge the oxygen? Or will the CO2 created from fermentation push the oxygen out naturally?

Also to aerate it I changed it up this time and just poured it between 2 sanitized buckets 4 times. It got nice and foamy before putting it into the keg. Was that a good idea or bad idea? Typically I shake the fermenter and it's a bear to shake and roll around!

 

[WortMonger]

Thanks for the quick response. I have 6 gallons of beer in a 15.5 gallon half barrel keg. So I'm positive I won't get any blowoff. However I did notice there was no pressure in there this morning. About 7-8 hours after I pitched the yeast. Hopefully that'll be different tonight. Should I push some CO2 in there to purge the oxygen? Or will the CO2 created from fermentation push the oxygen out naturally?

Also to aerate it I changed it up this time and just poured it between 2 sanitized buckets 4 times. It got nice and foamy before putting it into the keg. Was that a good idea or bad idea? Typically I shake the fermenter and it's a bear to shake and roll around!

Sorry, I just started back on HBTalk. I'd like to hear how it turned out.

First, i guess you figured out that you were fine fermenting in any container right from the start (assuming you are at a good pitch rate for your yeast, and you are at a good temperature for said yeast). Those guys get fired up and start producing a sealing blanket of CO2 over for beer quickly, and it expands to force out the atmosphere. You probably also noticed 6 gallons in a 15.5 gallon keg, especially spunding, worked just fine.

Lots of people aerate a lot of different ways so.... How'd it turn out?

 

[DGW]

Sorry, I just started back on HBTalk. I'd like to hear how it turned out.

First, i guess you figured out that you were fine fermenting in any container right from the start (assuming you are at a good pitch rate for your yeast, and you are at a good temperature for said yeast). Those guys get fired up and start producing a sealing blanket of CO2 over for beer quickly, and it expands to force out the atmosphere. You probably also noticed 6 gallons in a 15.5 gallon keg, especially spunding, worked just fine.

Lots of people aerate a lot of different ways so.... How'd it turn out?

Sorry,Not on topic, but good to see you back!

 

[WortMonger]

Good to be back, life has been busy!

 

[DGW]

Anyone used this Valve from McMaster-Car for a spunding valve? If so, how is the longevity and is easy is it to use and clean? Getting sick of replacing the cheaper brass valves

Threaded Pressure-Regulating Valves for Food and Beverage

With Knob

• For Use With: Food and Beverage
• Temperature Range: 35° to 125° F

Made of FDA-listed materials, these valves are often used to regulate pressure in food and beverage lines. They automatically reduce a high,variable inlet pressure to a lower, stable outlet pressure. Adjust the outlet pressure within the range.

Valves with knob have one gauge port.
Acetal Body—Buna-N/Nylon Diaphragm and EPDM Seal with Knob
1/4 Side 150 1/4 Side Knob 1 5/8" 5 to 125 4545T612 $30.89

 

[WortMonger]

Anyone used this Valve from McMaster-Car for a spunding valve? If so, how is the longevity and is easy is it to use and clean? Getting sick of replacing the cheaper brass valves

Threaded Pressure-Regulating Valves for Food and Beverage

With Knob

• For Use With: Food and Beverage
• Temperature Range: 35° to 125° F

Made of FDA-listed materials, these valves are often used to regulate pressure in food and beverage lines. They automatically reduce a high,variable inlet pressure to a lower, stable outlet pressure. Adjust the outlet pressure within the range.

Valves with knob have one gauge port.
Acetal Body—Buna-N/Nylon Diaphragm and EPDM Seal with Knob
1/4 Side 150 1/4 Side Knob 1 5/8" 5 to 125 4545T612 $30.89

I have not.

 

[Jbrown57]

I do not believe that this is a pressure relief valve, but a pressure reducing valve.
ie from 100 psi to a lower pressure of say 10 psi output.
a spunding valve is a pressure relief valve which maintains a set pressure on the supply side
ie relieving pressure in excess of the setting.
I have used this valve with good success.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#99045k11/=1e1vbrz
good luck
jb

 

[DGW]

Thanks JB,
I'm having a hard time figuring out why either valve wouldn't work for our spunding valves. I have my spunding valves set up on the gas "in" inlet on my sanke kegs. I set my valves ahead of time to start releasing pressure at 7 psi ( or there about). While hard to set, the old brass valves work. I cannot understand how the valve I posted above, would be able to deduce that it was being used to release pressure above a set limit, instead of inline pressure. Believe me, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't understand why it would not work. Once It reached my set pressure of say 7 psi, would it open? Maybe the better question would be, would it stay open at my 7 psi? The price difference is not that much different, but the one I found is 1/4" pipe thread, that would make it much easier to use in my set up. Thanks in advance--DGW (Dan)

 

[Jbrown57]

DGW
pressure reducing valves or regulators explained here. https://www.machinedesign.com/basics-design/pneumatic-pressure-regulators

pressure relief (spunding) valves explained here. http://www.beswick.com/basics-pressure-relief-valves

Pressure relief valves are put in place as a safety measure to prevent a vessel or line from exceeding its pressure rating. Applied to brewing as a spunding valve it controls the pressure in the fermenting vessel at a set pressure and relieves all pressure above the set point into the atmosphere. So a spunding valve maintains a constant supply side pressure by exhausting or relieving excess pressure generated by fermentation or expansion.

Pressure reducing valves normally take compressed gas from the compressor or supply at say 100 psi and reduce it to a more manageable pressure like 40 psi for a paint gun or pneumatic tool. So a pressure reducing valve lowers and maintains a set pressure from a higher supply pressure.
hope this helps,
jbrown57

 

[crane]

I have used this valve with good success.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#99045k11/=1e1vbrz
good luck
jb

+1 for this PRV. I've have tried several different PRVs several years ago and settled on this valve for its reliability, ease of use, and I have never had it leak like some of the brass ones do(sometimes the balls don't reseat properly after releasing excess pressure and the valves will bleed off all the pressure) . The only problem is you cant take it apart to clean it and it will clog up if you get any blow off going through it. I had to replace it once because I forgot to add ferm cap to the fermenter.

I since then have built an airlock/blow off catcher out of a water filter housing and a piece of a sanke keg spear. Another benefit of this is that I can gauge fermentation activity by monitoring bubbles through the airlock.

 

[Yesfan]

+1 for this PRV. I've have tried several different PRVs several years ago and settled on this valve for its reliability, ease of use, and I have never had it leak like some of the brass ones do(sometimes the balls don't reseat properly after releasing excess pressure and the valves will bleed off all the pressure) . The only problem is you cant take it apart to clean it and it will clog up if you get any blow off going through it. I had to replace it once because I forgot to add ferm cap to the fermenter.

I since then have built an airlock/blow off catcher out of a water filter housing and a piece of a sanke keg spear. Another benefit of this is that I can gauge fermentation activity by monitoring bubbles through the airlock.

View attachment 582880

View attachment 582881

I would like to see more info on how you made that. I have one of those filtration housings laying around I could re-purpose.

 

[crane]

I would like to see more info on how you made that. I have one of those filtration housings laying around I could re-purpose.

Surely. This picture may connect the dots. I found that the spear of a sanke keg will fit over the ring on the top of the filter housing that normally holds the filter in the center of the housing. I used a pipe cutter to cut the spear to size. I cut end was slightly rolled in from the pipe cutter which helped to make an air tight seal. The other end wasn't air tight. YMMV

 

[Tegra]

Just to keep this alive......

And to show I am “taking one for the team”...

I recall when I got started, seeing posts of 10 gallon batchs and laughing “why would someone ever need to make more than 5 gallons at a time?”

As soon as the word got out that “his stuff is pretty good” it seemed there was a leak in the kegs! I switched to 10 gallon batches. I then realized that making twice as much does not take much more time, and there are lots of ways to get rid of excess beer. Sad to say, these 10 gallons also seemed to end up in leaky kegs, so I have been trying to max out the Sanke!

I am now doing 55 litre batches (just short of 15 US gallons). The idea is to get three full corny kegs.

This means that there is almost no head space for foam. This is where Fermcap and pressure are your friends. About 20 drops and allowing the pressure to rise quite quickly means there is no blowoff. I allow the pressure to build to 25 psi, feeding into a second empty Sanke. When I bleed off some of this (to compress into a holding tank) I make sure I only do this about 5 psi at a time or else the foam will build.

I must admit this is with Centenial Blonde, (a lower gravity favorite) but I am confident I can do the same with a higher gravity.

Take it to the max!

Tom

 

[WortMonger]

Ok, after a 5+year hiatus on all things brewing... I return!!!

I know, a blender... but it was on purpose to get a flour crush.

Porridge basically!

And then just sparge, boil, chill, pitch, and on the stir plate she goes. All 5L of majestic maltyness startificationing! Hopefully I can brew the 15 gallon batch on Sunday... hopefully. It's good to be back and I can't wait to hear my farty little spunding valve.

 

[bartichex]

Good to see you back!

 

[WortMonger]

Latest set up, cannot wait to try this with a floating diptube. A thermowell that large is something I have always wanted. Now I have the ability, to hook up my ball lock gas side connector on my Chillzer and either vent CO2 or spund outside on the beer's next keg to purge it.

This older setup didn't have a thermowell.

And here's the CO2 port to outside my Chillzer, that way 0% humidity is created inside my chest freezer.

 

[Broken Crow]

Looks Awseome! I've done something similar only without the thermowell, and I've used it with my Fermonster so far. I've made one for my Sanke, but haven't yet cut out the rim for the valve inside the keg to allow the float-ball to fit through...I can't find a ball that will fit, so I'm undecided as to use the plasma cutter or just a grind-wheel or stone on my dremel to remove this:

So I can install this:

Do you have a float that fits and can you share a link? ..Or: what method did you use to remove the rim?

 

[WortMonger]

Looks Awseome! I've done something similar only without the thermowell, and I've used it with my Fermonster so far. I've made one for my Sanke, but haven't yet cut out the rim for the valve inside the keg to allow the float-ball to fit through...I can't find a ball that will fit, so I'm undecided as to use the plasma cutter or just a grind-wheel or stone on my dremel to remove this:
View attachment 820970
So I can install this:
View attachment 820971

Do you have a float that fits and can you share a link? ..Or: what method did you use to remove the rim?

I can't find the damn thing any longer, but could swear I bought this one thing from Williams Brewing. My ball is 1.650" but all I see now on my search was larger balls. Maybe someone could chime in with a definitive where to go, because I'm buying more if I find them.

 

[ba-brewer]

Looks Awseome! I've done something similar only without the thermowell, and I've used it with my Fermonster so far. I've made one for my Sanke, but haven't yet cut out the rim for the valve inside the keg to allow the float-ball to fit through...I can't find a ball that will fit, so I'm undecided as to use the plasma cutter or just a grind-wheel or stone on my dremel to remove this:
View attachment 820970
So I can install this:
View attachment 820971

Do you have a float that fits and can you share a link? ..Or: what method did you use to remove the rim?

Have you looked at the caskwidge Cask Widge might not need to cut or grind.

 

[WortMonger]

Have you looked at the caskwidge Cask Widge might not need to cut or grind.

That would probably work just fine.

 

[Broken Crow]

Have you looked at the caskwidge Cask Widge might not need to cut or grind.

I can't envision how that would be useful, thanks for the thought though... I probably wasn't clear; I have a couple Sanke's that I'll be using for approx. 12-gallon batches and I want to use a floating diptube but all the floats I've bought are just a tiny bit too large to fit through the rim that the sanke-spear seats on top of.. I'll never be using the sanke for anything else, so I am going to either cut or grind the rim out so that my float (and my CIP ball for that matter!) can fit inside. I've made a few units I call my 'Ferm-Head' that I can attach to any fermenter as long as there is space to fit the ball in.

 

[ba-brewer]

I can't envision how that would be useful, thanks for the thought though... I probably wasn't clear; I have a couple Sanke's that I'll be using for approx. 12-gallon batches and I want to use a floating diptube but all the floats I've bought are just a tiny bit too large to fit through the rim that the sanke-spear seats on top of.. I'll never be using the sanke for anything else, so I am going to either cut or grind the rim out so that my float (and my CIP ball for that matter!) can fit inside. I've made a few units I call my 'Ferm-Head' that I can attach to any fermenter as long as there is space to fit the ball in.

Was thinking about just just using the float part it looks to be slightly wider that the silicone tube, seems like that would fit through the hole without modifications. Your CIP is a different story.

 

[Broken Crow]

Sanke's don't have that rubberish fitting to hammer a tap into... If I ever decide to try using a cask as a fermenter though, it'd definitely be worth considering... maybe you've just inspired someone else on here who has a spare cask sitting around... I love creative re-purposing.

 

[WortMonger]

Imagine just using the end part! That is just a floating dip tube!

 

[Broken Crow]

Imagine just using the end part! That is just a floating dip tube!

Oh!! I see!! Sorry, I've got brain-damage and I tend to miss what should be obvious..
That just became very appealing! ...going to the site again to see if just the float is available..

EDIT: YAY!! Cask Widge Floats | Cask Conditioned Ales
EDIT 2: Thanks @ba-brewer and @WortMonger !!!!!

 

[WortMonger]

This Sunday started off my come back! I used my newly upgraded brewery to brew a British Brown Ale 13B. Lowest SRM I could get out of my grains, trying to taste/ highlight the candied/crystal oats I made. I can't wait to try it. Here's a link to the brew day of you're interested.