Anyone stop BIAB and return to more traditional Mash and Sparge techniques?

[Burndog]

The reason I ask is that I like brewing posted recipes. Pliny Clone 4.0 is one of my favorites so far.

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what? Ramp up the qty of grains so final sugars/OG is inline with the original recipe?

That seems to be a guessing game and not conducive to the precise ingredients some of these recipes demand.

Still learning but thinking BIAB may not be the right fit for someone that wants to have the most flexibility in their brewing toolbag.

The last Pliny Clone was done in a Yeti 50qrt with the wilserbrewer BIAB so no false bottom needed. It worked but thinking a sparging false bottom cooler would really do the trick... Anyone else face this dilemma?

 

[doug293cz]

You don't necessarily lose efficiency with BIAB. 80% - 85% mash efficiencies are readily obtainable with BIAB. It's easier to get close to 100% conversion efficiency with BIAB using very fine crushes, and lower dead space volumes can improve lauter efficiency and brewhouse efficiency. What efficiency do the recipes you want to use assume? What is your typical mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency (for a grain bill similar to Pliny)?

Brew on

 

[madscientist451]

I started off BIAB, but got a round cooler after the third batch and put the BIAB bag in there. No temp issues/swings during mashing, no mess when pulling the bag out, and a big improvement in the taste of the beer.
The cooler was about $20, the parts for a spigot were about $15. I also have a keggle/false bottom mash tun, but I seldom use it, the smaller cooler is just way easier to deal with.
For brewing a big beer like Pliney, you'll need a bigger cooler than the 5 gallon version mentioned above, and a bigger BIAB bag.

 

[Burndog]

Maybe the problem is lack of fine crushes? I've been buying pre-ground from my local brewing supply and the last brew we did (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=28239) halved to 5 gallons, I added an extra 2lbs of 2 row and still ended up shy of the target 1.044 with only 1.032 OG

 

[applescrap]

You don't necessarily lose efficiency with BIAB. 80% - 85% mash efficiencies are readily obtainable with BIAB. It's easier to get close to 100% conversion efficiency with BIAB using very fine crushes, and lower dead space volumes can improve lauter efficiency and brewhouse efficiency. What efficiency do the recipes you want to use assume? What is your typical mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency (for a grain bill similar to Pliny)?

Brew on

This...


Bottom line there is just no getting around it, either you move water or you move grain. Inherently moving water seems easier then a grain sack, but with a wench (ahoy) one vessel can truly be done. Whats not to like there? I thought about coolers they keep temperature well. Whatever you think is going to be easiest for you is fine by me. But efficiency is fine with biab.

 

[Oldskewl]

I constantly struggled with efficiency when buying pre-crushed grains. Once I bought my cereal killer mill I consistently run 76-80% efficiency depending on the size of the grain bill.

 

[brew703]

I regularly get 80% efficiency but I crush my own grains. Stopped having the LHBS do it as the crush was not sufficient. Get a grain mill and try yourself.
Although I have thought about mashing in a cooler with a bag, I keep talking myself out of it as don't really want the extra cooler taking up space.

 

[Trail]

...but with a wench (ahoy) one vessel can truly be done.

Minor correction... this is a wench:

This, on the other hand, is a winch:

While I'd rather have the help of a comely wench on brew day, they aren't known for their lifting capacity. If I was doing BIAB, I would tearfully opt for the winch every time.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I constantly struggled with efficiency when buying pre-crushed grains. Once I bought my cereal killer mill I consistently run 76-80% efficiency depending on the size of the grain bill.

I run about 60% brewhouse for a 6.5% beer to date. Other than typical grain absorption, I only lose about a quart in the MLT cooler. I whirlpool and lose very little in trub loss in the kettle. Calcs say I have conversion/lauter issues, so I'm hoping that milling my own will resolve my issues.

My cereal killer arrives today. I'll be really pleased if my efficiency increases to even 70% (but my first few brews may be really boozy).

 

[mashinary]

I do BIAB for smaller batches, but I prefer my mash tun cooler and batch sparging. I normally brew 11 gallon batches and managing that with bags and stuff seems like a pain. I also can crush super fine, but that's due to the type of hose braid I have in my mash tun.

 

[casualbrewer]

Pretty easy for me to sparge with my biab set up. I mash then pull bag up and place in colander that fits my pot and sparge away. After the boil I chill and ferment in my same pot. One vessel for everything. Ultimate simplicity and can brew anything.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Mash and sparge techniques have nothing to do with the bag. You can sparge and mash as thin or thick as you would like, the bag isn't going to go "oh man IDK if you can do that, I only work if you don't sparge."

You can, for example, do a rest at 130F, then direct fire up to 148 (stir and apply heat carefully), then do a decoction to 154, then mashout, then fly sparge. IDK why you would want to, but if you're still using a bag, then in my book it's BIAB.

BIAB != No sparge.

 

[jrcrilly]

I do brew in a basket (same process as brew in a bag but more convenient) for 5 gallon batches, conventional 3V for 10 gallons. Both work fine. I could learn to live with either one but prefer the flexibility of choice.

 

[Trail]

On a more serious note, I did BIAB for years and have done several times more BIAB than I've currently done with my mash tun. I switched for a few reasons:

1. It feels super dodgy hauling so much wet grain around in a thin little voile bag. I know it's really unlikely to break, but it gave me massive anxiety.
2. Getting grain husks out of the bag is super ****ing tedious.
3. Lifting the bag is hard!
4. Maintaining mash temp in New England inside a metal kettle is hard

I've never looked back. I still have my brew bag somewhere, and I might break it out if I wanted to do a two-batch day. But in addition to the above reasons, I find the standard tun to be much more fun!

 

[r8rphan]

Minor correction... this is a wench:

YES PLEASE!
I BADLY NEED ONE!
BUT I CAN'T AFFORD ONE!


So I drink.....

 

[Frilock]

Although I have thought about mashing in a cooler with a bag, I keep talking myself out of it as don't really want the extra cooler taking up space.

I just store my stuff in my cooler, space issue solved! Also since my cooler is 100% unmodified in any way, I also have a cooler if I want one!

 

[Frilock]

While I'd rather have the help of a comely wench on brew day, they aren't known for their lifting capacity.

Depends on what exactly is being lifted.

 

[Oldskewl]

I run about 60% brewhouse for a 6.5% beer to date. Other than typical grain absorption, I only lose about a quart in the MLT cooler. I whirlpool and lose very little in trub loss in the kettle. Calcs say I have conversion/lauter issues, so I'm hoping that milling my own will resolve my issues.

My cereal killer arrives today. I'll be really pleased if my efficiency increases to even 70% (but my first few brews may be really boozy).

I think you'll be pleased. I used feeler gauges to set to about .0028". I use a cordless drill, but keep the rpm's slow. If you use too high of a speed the grains go right through uncrushed.

 

[mongoose33]

I've done about....7 or maybe 8 BIAB brew days, formerly using a cooler mash tun.

One trick I got from Morrey was to set my crush finer, to about a .020 gap. I use the same grain bills as before, getting the same efficiency within a point or two either way.

The only place I've struggled with BIAB is getting the mash temp correct. I use a Blichmann Hellfire and what I've discovered is there's a lot of residual heat in the burner setup that continues to heat the kettle. I've also struggled with there being significant temperature layers in the mash. I stir it up well and I still end up with hotter than I like.

This issue has me looking at the possibility of a RIMS or HERMS approach to maintaining mash temps. I also thought about just lining my mash tun with a wilserbag and going from there. I can hit and maintain mash temps very well in my cooler mash tun.

But then a RIMS or HERMS system tends to move me away from the original appeal of BIAB which for me was simplicity.

 

[r8rphan]

I've done about....7 or maybe 8 BIAB brew days, formerly using a cooler mash tun.

One trick I got from Morrey was to set my crush finer, to about a .020 gap. I use the same grain bills as before, getting the same efficiency within a point or two either way.

Probably gonna have to go coarser if you want to recirculate...

The only place I've struggled with BIAB is getting the mash temp correct. I use a Blichmann Hellfire and what I've discovered is there's a lot of residual heat in the burner setup that continues to heat the kettle. I've also struggled with there being significant temperature layers in the mash. I stir it up well and I still end up with hotter than I like.

This is the issue I've had.. especially the layering.. I mean it's not a small difference either.. With the finely crushed grain, it's exacerbated as the grain acts like an insulator between the hot liquor underneath and the liquor in and above the mash...

So, I'm mostly already all set up to recirculate, so that's what I'm gonna try.. Recirculate as I heat the mash water, then slowly introduce the grains at a lower temp than I want to mash at, recirculating through the whole process, bring up to mash temp, and then keep recirculating and stirring throughout the whole time I'm mashing, carefully monitoring mash temp in the whole mash, the whole time..

This issue has caused me to create a lot of unfermentables, which causes me to never hit finish gravity, and leaves a 'wort' taste to one degree or another in the finished beer... Wort is not the best tasting thing to drink...

 

[kristiismean]

i use a 10 gallon cooler with a brew bag. i don't take numbers all the time, but this is the average.
my lhbs I average 75-78% efficiency with a single running. i do the lots of water and let it sit method. so usually add 6 gallons to the cooler and grain, let sit for an hour. then drain, add around 2 gallons to make the difference, but no recycle or Vorlauf but when I do, efficiency jumps up to the 85%.

Milled grain from ritebrew is a little higher in efficiency, around 76-80% and can reach up to 88%. they also have an option for double mill, and i wonder if that would push it higher or not.

 

[kh54s10]

As already noted there are ways to increase efficiency to allow the use of similar amounts of grain.

But, I started with my 3 vessel gravity system first. I dislike BIAB. Mostly because I am not set up for it.

I find it far easier to mash in my water cooler mash tun, drain, carry the spent grain, (in the cooler) to my compost pile to dump it then rinse it out. With BIAB you have to lift a heavy, hot sticky, bag. Try to sparge some way, if not doing a no sparge. But the bag in a bucket to carry to the compost pile, dump, then you have to clean the bag AND the bucket. Without a hoist I will only do 3 gallon batches...... I can't even imagine trying a 10 gallon high gravity highly hopped brew - tons!!

 

[ChappysBrewing]

It all comes down to your system. I have a 30 gallon HERMS system so for me if im making 20+ gallons of beer, you're talking about 40-50lbs of grain plus water absorption to where Id love to see someone lift and dump that sucker. I have a false bottom but also use a BIAB to make my cleanup so much easier. Use the wrench that BIAB also sells and itll pull up that entire amount no problem by myself. If you're having issues with brewhouse efficiency you'll have to change something up because its definitely not the bags issue. I would never buy pre ground gains and would rather grain in the store first. But like so many others, I broke down and bought my own to have all the control I want. It comes down to you and your system.

 

[SailorJerry]

I started off BIAB, but got a round cooler after the third batch and put the BIAB bag in there. No temp issues/swings during mashing, no mess when pulling the bag out, and a big improvement in the taste of the beer.
The cooler was about $20, the parts for a spigot were about $15. I also have a keggle/false bottom mash tun, but I seldom use it, the smaller cooler is just way easier to deal with.
For brewing a big beer like Pliney, you'll need a bigger cooler than the 5 gallon version mentioned above, and a bigger BIAB bag.

So, you mash in with the big round cooler, then transfer to your boil kettle? We are trying to think of a good way to move from extract to all grain, but we are uncertain, and a bit terrified, of how to go about it.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Seems like no matter what method you use you're going to have to deal with the fact that your efficiency will differ from whatever the recipe maker assumes. I seem to hit right around 75% on all of my full volume BIAB attempts, which coincidentally is what the vast majority of recipes I've tried were based on. Given that, why would I want to change?

 

[Frilock]

So, you mash in with the big round cooler, then transfer to your boil kettle? We are trying to think of a good way to move from extract to all grain, but we are uncertain, and a bit terrified, of how to go about it.

I can't say its the best, but here is what I did:

Started with brewing in a big, using a 5 gallon brew kettle with a bag. This lasted one brew as it was a PITA and I had to top up (which doesn't work so well with big IPAs).

I then switched to two kettles. Same as the first method, then dunk sparged into the second, mixed the two together and off I went. This lasted a FEW brews more, but I still needed to top off. However, given space requirements at the time, this was the best option I knew of.

Then I moved on to my current process. Now, this is what I PERSONALLY recommend. I bought a blue igloo (I think thats the brand) round cooler of a 5 gallon capacity. I also bought a 7.5 gallon kettle (actually it came with the propane burner, but whatever). I then mash in the cooler (no modifications to it whatsoever) as you would normally do in a traditional cooler mash(except using a bag of course). I shoot for ~7 gallons to go into my boil kettle. So I calculate how much water I need, then split that between two kettles (the 7.5 first and one of the 5 gallons second, based on how much the cooler can hold). Mash as normal, then pull the bag up, stick colander under it, then drain out through the spigot provided by the company the factory that made the cooler. That goes out to the burner where it starts heating towards a boil. I then take my bag and put it back into the cooler and dump the remaining water (which has been heated to around 165ish) in over the top. That sits until my boil kettle is almost to a boil, it then gets lifted up, squeezed, let to drip for a minute or so, squeezed again, then tossed where the deer can eat it. Whats in the cooler is drained into the smaller kettle, then brought out to the other kettle already almost boiling. Bring to boil, brew as normal.

One thing I would add, sometimes my 5 gal cooler isn't enough to mash all my grain. In those cases I put what needs to mash in the cooler, and leave anything that can be steeped to do so separately. Alternatively, you could get a bigger cooler. Either way, you can upgrade to all grain for the cost of a BIAB bag and a cooler (no mods necessary).

 

[beernutz]

The reason I ask is that I like brewing posted recipes. Pliny Clone 4.0 is one of my favorites so far.

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what? Ramp up the qty of grains so final sugars/OG is inline with the original recipe?

That seems to be a guessing game and not conducive to the precise ingredients some of these recipes demand.

Still learning but thinking BIAB may not be the right fit for someone that wants to have the most flexibility in their brewing toolbag.

The last Pliny Clone was done in a Yeti 50qrt with the wilserbrewer BIAB so no false bottom needed. It worked but thinking a sparging false bottom cooler would really do the trick... Anyone else face this dilemma?

How are you doing BIAB with just a cooler? What are you boiling in?

I have yet to try a BIAB and I just received a Wilserbrew grand slam so I could try one out but my understanding is you can expect an increase in efficiency over a traditional 3 vessel system like I currently use.

 

[madscientist451]

So, you mash in with the big round cooler, then transfer to your boil kettle? We are trying to think of a good way to move from extract to all grain, but we are uncertain, and a bit terrified, of how to go about it.

Yes, its simple, nothing to be terrified about: just pre heat the cooler with a few gallons of hot tap water,
use an on line mash calculator to figure your strike water temp, heat your strike water in your kettle, dump the pre heat water (save in a bucket for cleaning stuff later), add strike water to cooler, add grain (in the BIAB bag) stir, put the lid on and go do something else for an hour. You can heat your batch sparge water while your mash is occurring. So when the mash is done, recirculate manually or just drain it off to a bucket. Add your heated batch sparge water to the cooler and stir it in. Dump the first runnings into your kettle and put it on the heat. Run off your batch sparge to a bucket and add that to the kettle and get it boiling. A lot of steps, and you'll find your own way that's different than the above, but that's basically it. Good Luck!

 

[Burndog]

How are you doing BIAB with just a cooler? What are you boiling in?

I have yet to try a BIAB and I just received a Wilserbrew grand slam so I could try one out but my understanding is you can expect an increase in efficiency over a traditional 3 vessel system like I currently use.

I heat the water for mash and use 75% volume initially, dump that into the Yeti 50 qrt. Put grains in the bag I purchased for my kettle and into the cooler to allow mash for the required time. Then drain back to kettle and pour 25% remaining water over grains as a sparge method @ higher temp understanding I am just rinsing the grains to gather the last of the sugars. Then squeeze and return to kettle to complete the boil.

We did one the other day , purely BIAB in the kettle on the stove that gave great control on the temp. Only problem is removing the bag as the kettle thermometer probe is 4-5" and can get hooked on the bag.

Both methods work, though for the bigger beers my 8 gallon kettle is pushing it so the cooler method makes more sense.

Ordered a Cereal Killer and 50#s of 2 row so will start crushing my own grains to better control this aspect of the process.

 

[patsan]

For me, Vorlauf is key. My 15 gal brew pot having the valve at the bottom, gives me the chance to connect a hose from it and I let it recirculate from bottom to top. I do it a few times during the initial mash. And yes, At my HBS they double grind the grain. I gain easily 5% more efficiency this way.

 

[Biscuits]

I went back to a traditional method once I had the room. BIAB seemed the way to go when I was constrained by space limitations (renting a room)...and I was brewing 1-2 gallon batches. Now that I am back home in my house and I have a garage I have a 10 gallon cooler I mash in for 5 gallon+ batches.

Main reasons for going back is that I didn't want to lift the bag out and squeeze or rig a pulley system to do so....plus, contrary to popular belief, it is easier to spray out my mash tun than it is to clean the bag.

Just my $0.02

 

[applescrap]

Probably gonna have to go coarser if you want to recirculate...




This is the issue I've had.. especially the layering.. I mean it's not a small difference either.. With the finely crushed grain, it's exacerbated as the grain acts like an insulator between the hot liquor underneath and the liquor in and above the mash...

So, I'm mostly already all set up to recirculate, so that's what I'm gonna try.. Recirculate as I heat the mash water, then slowly introduce the grains at a lower temp than I want to mash at, recirculating through the whole process, bring up to mash temp, and then keep recirculating and stirring throughout the whole time I'm mashing, carefully monitoring mash temp in the whole mash, the whole time..

This issue has caused me to create a lot of unfermentables, which causes me to never hit finish gravity, and leaves a 'wort' taste to one degree or another in the finished beer... Wort is not the best tasting thing to drink...

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

 

[applescrap]

I have to agree, without a wench to help you with your sac, I remain unconvinced this is the easiest way. Even though I know mash temp doesnt matter I still try to insulate. Two vessel i believe will become norm. All that being said I can brew 5g in 2 hr 40 min and 11 in three so its hard to switch because brewing fast is my thing. For 11g batches i use 2 bags.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I would definitely look at your crush and your water chemistry. Adjusting your mash pH can do wonders for you conversion, and you don't need a pH meter because you just need to be in the ballpark. Between crushing fine, adjusting pH, and a sparge, I get 80% efficiency predictably.

 

[rhys333]

Up front, BIAB and 3-vessel are both capable of producing excellent quality beer and it's down to what you feel comfortable with. I'm sticking with BIAB because I see it as faster, easier, simpler, and more cost-effective when considering the two options. I mash in a 5 gallon pot indoors and then dunk sparge outdoors in the brew pot. This allows maximum heat retention (virtually zero heat loss in 60-90 mins) and saves on propane. For aveage gravity 5-8 gallon batches, I can't think of a downside to BIAB. The procedure is perfectly suited to small batch brewing.

 

[r8rphan]

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

Not true.. Go see my thread in this forum about 4 ruined batches in a row...

 

[r8rphan]

without a wench to help you with your sac

This has been an issue since the beginning of human history!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I switched to BIAB when I felt like my brew rig (which I designed to make life easier...) became too complicated with a pump, plate chiller, cooler MLT, keggle, etc. I see myself refining the BIAB process and probably moving to EBIAB, but not going back to a traditional 2 or 3 vessel setup. I'll likely try out the Robobrew for indoor brewing during winter and doing a 2nd batch at the same time during normal brew days. The simpler I can make the process, the better!

 

[jrcrilly]

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

There are valid reasons to recirculate but temperature control isn't one of them (though temperature consistency throughout the mash volume definitely IS a good one). Temp control and recirc go together because heat losses caused by recirc require some form of makeup heat. That is why recirculation schemes incorporating such things as RIMS and HERMS are so common. When I added recirc to my system I also incorporated a heat exchanger but that was because my upgraded system required makeup heat.

 

[Kent88]

I went from BIAB to traditional, and now I've hybridized them as my false bottom isn't doing its job.

When I did stove-top BIAB I was to quick to turn the burner on when the temp started dropping a little. Then another part of the mash would get to hot, I'd curse, shut off the burner, stir, wait 5 minutes and repeat.

The cooler holds heat a *lot* better so once I get my temp dialed in I am set, and I am forced to go slower, consider what I'm doing before I alter the mash too much.