What BIAB brewing actually is (Mythbusting for traditionalists)

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Good point. This is another thing i neglect in my rather lazy process, for the mere fact that i start out with a pretty mineral and alkaline free water. I wonder a few drops of gypsum etc. would do to my creations. You wouldnt know i have the blandest beer in Canada. Its not imho, but could it be better, with some water additions?

Yeah I was first and foremost referring to alkalinity and the related pH control. That can have a huge impact if you happen to have high alkalinity water and do nothing about it. But now I remember also from that other thread you said that your water is good from that perspective.
Mineral additions are only a rather minor screw IMHO. They can definitely have an impact but it's not going to be day and night, unless you really go to the extremes.
OK now lets get the thread back on topic , I cannot contribute much to the BIAB discussion myself, but after reading such threads I sometimes regret I did not consider BIAB as a possibility when stepping up my game about 1.5 years ago...

 

[BarryBrews]

one of many factors

Let's remember the success of a beer relies on the quality of the ingredients, the recipe, the brewing, the yeast and the packaging. It's a challenging and tricky course to transverse through all of the kettle holes, slippery hulls, temperamental temperatures, grain crushing and whirlpool spinning. Use first principles and stab at your ideal, then hope for a great beer. Cheers!

 

[Boilinginsc]

Bush League! That just tickled me. We're all Bush League Brewers.

When i look at large systems, all i think is, whats them other two containers used for? Surely it just eats up more of your precious time. BIAB is "quick and dirty", in a good way, and final product is excellent. Im the envy of the neighbourhood, cos i can turn grains into nice beer.

Welcome to the Bush League!

Sounds like a club!
‘The Bush League Brewers Club’
Welcome the BLB

 

[McKnuckle]

Ah, but my point is being misconstrued. Obviously the grain and hops define the recipe which defines the general style, and therefore outcome of the product.

But the brewer makes wort, and yeast make beer. You can kcuf up your beer much more easily in the fermenter. It is far less easy to mistreat it during the mash and boil. A temperature glitch or lower efficiency may just make it come out a little differently, but that's not usually the place where the end product is literally made undrinkable, which is eminently possible - even easy - to do with carelessness or mistakes in fermentation.

People obsess over the mash because it's the most technical, or sometimes mechanical part of the process. But it's not the most critical, which is why there are so many ways to do it - versus fermentation, which has more narrowly spaced guardrails.

 

[eshea3]

Let's remember the success of a beer relies on the quality of the ingredients, the recipe, the brewing, the yeast and the packaging. It's a challenging and tricky course to transverse through all of the kettle holes, slippery hulls, temperamental temperatures, grain crushing and whirlpool spinning. Use first principles and stab at your ideal, then hope for a great beer. Cheers!

Advising use of "first principles" is nice, but what constitutes "first principles"? What some consider foundational others consider mythology. That what most of this discussion concerns. Each individual should draw their own conclusions. Perhaps best not to assume that because someone comes to a different opinion it is less thoughtful or less valid

 

[Bobby_M]

This reply is not to any specific post. I've been kind of sitting back and watching for the most part.

Some replies seem to be along the lines of "just brew how you want" or "why are you defending a brewing method so hard?". Most people seem to get the point, but just in case it was missed, the post was mostly to correct misinformation/disinformation that I felt was commonly attributed to one particular wort production method.

On the other hand, while I personally prefer BIAB and think many people do or will, None of this was an argument that it made superior beer over any other wort production method. If you hold your mash somewhere in the neighborhood of 145-160F for something like an hour, at a pH of somewhere between 4.8 and 5.8, it will make a wort that is "viable". Similar to other recent posters' sentiments, I believe a viable wort is a bare minimum. Brewer's are perfectly able to screw up a beer royally in the weeks that follow.

Circling back to the "just brew how you want" or "don't worry what people say about a brewing method". I mean yes, as an individual homebrewer I do brew how I want obviously. The whole concept of community, certainly part of the intent of being on a forum like HBT, is to discuss methods. Outside of the forum, as a proprietor of a brewing hardware company, I take daily calls from people looking in to all grain brewing for the first time, looking to upgrade, and all other goals and you'd be very surprised what percentage of people haven't even heard of BIAB brewing.

 

[BarryBrews]

but what constitutes "first principles"?

Rethinking every procedure used on brew day. Reading and listening to other brewers for ideas. The goal is always less work and better beer. In the course of 94 brews I've updated and upgraded from the Brewer's Best 8 gallon kettle / 10 gallon Igloo cooler mash tun many hundreds of times. It's been a ton of fun!

My favorite procedural change for the last 23 brews is never stirring the mash. No doughing in! The mash tun strike water is under let at 2 gallons/minute and then immediately recirculated at 3 gallons/minute with a RIMS tube maintaining the exact temperature desired. A highly fermentable mash profile, 145F to 160F, and a final rinse yields mid 70's to low 80's range of mash tun efficiencies. Not only is this way easier, but by not suspending the fine particles the mash tun never gets stuck! This feat of magic is performed with a false bottom, a brew bag and premixing the grist. Additionally the premixed grains are crushed directly into the mash tun eliminating yet another step as well as also avoiding the dreaded grain dust. Try it.

I guess it's a liquid in liquid out and not a grain in grain out kind of thing. Sorry the example itself is off topic. The idea of rethinking everything is still applicable.

 

[odie]

In the end, whatever method works best for you is all that matters.

FWIW, the discussion of wort clarity... whatever method works for you to achieve your desired clarity is all that matters. BIAB can provide just as clear as 3V.

My method is I recirc my BIAB during the mash so it's very clear but still squeeze the bag (after hanging and draining for a couple hours there is still a good pint or more inside). Also, after boil everything goes thru a 100-200 mircon bucket strainer so regardless if BIAB or 3V, the wort in the fermenter is very clear. The entire kettle trub is strained to collect all wort in the fermentor. What gets tossed out is a very solid cake of trub with no wort. But it does require a good day of dripping while in the ferm chamber to extract all the wort.

So clear that after racking from bucket fermenter to keg, all that's left is about a pint of almost pure yeast cake and a little beer. No trub to be found unless I hopped the fermenter or added cacao nibs or oak chips, etc. Basically zero wort loss from flame out to keg. The only wort that doesn't make it to the keg ends up in a pint jar to cover the harvested yeast cake.

But that's just my method. There are many that will produce outstanding results. Read other's posts and mix and match methods to create your own system.

 

[Bobby_M]

In the end, whatever method works best for you is all that matters.

FWIW, the discussion of wort clarity... whatever method works for you to achieve your desired clarity qualities is all that matters. BIAB can provide just as clear as 3V.

Fixed that. The discussion got a little more into what flavor effects a turbid boil may or may not have. Like everything else, brewing literature and homebrewers' anecdotal evidence are always at odds. For my own personal curiosity, I'm doing back to back German Pils batches between a typical squeezed BIAB process and a fully vorlaufed full volume mash. I'll share my results but I'm not confident that people will, or should, take anything as gospel.

 

[BarryBrews]

For my own personal curiosity, I'm doing back to back German Pils batches between a typical squeezed BIAB process and a fully vorlaufed full volume mash. I'll share my results but I'm not confident that people will, or should, take anything as gospel.

Thanks Bobby! Look forward to your taste test results.

 

[Boilinginsc]

Getting settled into a new, smaller house here, I’ve been kicking around this method to simplify and minimize equipment used.
I am going to try this now after reading this thread.
Thank you @Bobby_M for taking the time to write this up!

 

[Jako]

for me i moved down to a 2V system thinking it would cut time down and cleaning. but its just a Rims BIAB system at this point. adding a 3rd vessel and going back to my old ways.

I was making better beer and my numbers were predicable. If i had to do it all over again i would have abought an all in 1 system that runs on 240V or just gone 3V right from the start. I see 0 benefit in a 2V system besides cost and space savings.

 

[McKnuckle]

The main negative about 3 vessels is really the physical space required, plus the extra tubing and pumps. All the third vessel (HLT) does is heat up water. It doesn't even need to be cleaned. So we're pretty much always talking about a 2 vs. 1 vessel cleaning situation.

I like 2 vessels personally, because I am a little obsessive about getting clear wort into the boil. I have brewed with all configurations, so I've made that decision based on my own personal experience, which will be different from someone else's. Anyway, to achieve this, you really have to drain from your BIAB mash vessel into the kettle before lifting the bag. Then you can lift, drain, and filter the rest.

It's a little more viable to get clear wort into the boil if a basket is involved, because it doesn't disturb the grain bed as much if you are careful and slow. In that type of setup, 1 vessel can do the trick.

 

[Bobby_M]

I like 2 vessels personally, because I am a little obsessive about getting clear wort into the boil.

Is that with using the kettle as the RIMS heat source? Do you vorlauf the mash tun extensively before routing the wort through the kettle?

My clean wort test brew is going to be derived from a standard mash tun with a Spike false bottom, full volume mashed and held temps via HERMS. I'll be using a sight glass during the run off to the boil kettle and I will stop collecting the moment the wort clouds up (if it does). This batch was scaled up by 2 gallons to ensure I can get my preboil volume without getting desparate.

 

[McKnuckle]

@Bobby_M it definitely requires recirculation, which I would ideally prefer to perform during the entire mash. At the very least, I would recirculate after mashout for a few minutes. And if that wasn't possible (i.e. no pump), I would vorlauf extensively until the wort was visibly clear.

You should be able to drain clear wort from the mash tun until you lose pickup from the dip tube. Then lift the bag, which will no longer have any sitting wort to dislodge the bits on top. Drain over a filter into the kettle. This wort will be more cloudy, but shouldn't be a mess either.

My normal system is a Braumeister, which continuously recirculates. But I also like to use a simple kettle and a brew bag, which is heated over an induction cooktop, so I can't control the temps too precisely.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not planning to use a bag for the clean wort beer since a 90 minute recirculated mash should yield a perfectly clear wort and I have no need to pull every bit of wort out. I'm making an extra 2 gallons to be extra sure I don't have to contaminate my sample. The counterpart batch will be done with a traditional BIAB with a thorough squeeze to force as much boil turbidity as possible.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm not planning to use a bag for the clean wort beer since a 90 minute recirculated mash should yield a perfectly clear wort and I have no need to pull every bit of wort out. I'm making an extra 2 gallons to be extra sure I don't have to contaminate my sample. The counterpart batch will be done with a traditional BIAB with a thorough squeeze to force as much boil turbidity as possible.

Looking forward to hearing the results! Thanks for sharing!

 

[eshea3]

Rethinking every procedure used on brew day. Reading and listening to other brewers for ideas. The goal is always less work and better beer. In the course of 94 brews I've updated and upgraded from the Brewer's Best 8 gallon kettle / 10 gallon Igloo cooler mash tun many hundreds of times. It's been a ton of fun!

My favorite procedural change for the last 23 brews is never stirring the mash. No doughing in! The mash tun strike water is under let at 2 gallons/minute and then immediately recirculated at 3 gallons/minute with a RIMS tube maintaining the exact temperature desired. A highly fermentable mash profile, 145F to 160F, and a final rinse yields mid 70's to low 80's range of mash tun efficiencies. Not only is this way easier, but by not suspending the fine particles the mash tun never gets stuck! This feat of magic is performed with a false bottom, a brew bag and premixing the grist. Additionally the premixed grains are crushed directly into the mash tun eliminating yet another step as well as also avoiding the dreaded grain dust. Try it.

I guess it's a liquid in liquid out and not a grain in grain out kind of thing. Sorry the example itself is off topic. The idea of rethinking everything is still applicable.

If we are rethinking procedures and listening to other brewers, then there really are no "first principles". I prefer to listen to other accomplished and award winning brewers as who have different opinions on things like sparging and exactitude of mash temperature. That's not indifference or a blind spot, as you told me, just a different conclusion.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's really hard to quantify brewing success across different people because goals and tastes are so variable. On one hand, in my social circles, I get to try a lot of beers and I will absolutely let my own palette tell me who's process I want to know more about. If the beer I taste is amazing or really bad, I always want to know more about the process.

Outside of tasting the beer yourself, the next best thing we have is BJCP competitions. Sure, you can cut it apart any which way you want but someone who medals more often than not is objectively a better brewer than someone who enters a lot and medals less or not at all. Brewers who don't enter comps at all are not good or bad brewers, just objectively untested.

The different goals thing is also a factor. One example is the brewer that likes their own beer the way it is and is having fun brewing it. The beer can be solidly mediocre by other measurements (something that would score a 25 all day) but in one bubble it's perfect. I've tasted a beer that I'd consider problematic and talk to the brewing thinking I might offer some help and the reality was that the brewer told me they really liked it. Who am I to tell them they are wrong?

The other example is hearing about an award winning brewer that gets golds all year brewing only German lagers. If you only care about NEIPA, you're not going to impressed.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yet another important element, that rarely gets tested in my BIAB brewing regimen, is time spent conditioning. In my case, in the bottle. I simply brew and drink in relatively short order, once its carbonated. For some beers (NEIPA), time conditioning might not be a consideration, but in general, many beers will develop a distinctly different mouthfeel over time. My ambers really mellow or 'cream out' over time. Pretty sure that's not the technical term for it. Crap. they might well be "oxidizing" in there, but the affect is a pleasurable one. Beer just feels more mature, and a lot nicer to drink. And that's maybe 4-6 weeks after bottling. Half of them, at least, are gone by this stage. No patience.

 

[BarryBrews]

For some beers (NEIPA), time conditioning might not be a consideration

My kveik fermented NEIPA's are ready to drink in 45 days and gone in less than 90 days from the brew date! Kveik has been a win-win all around for me.

 

[tf_brew]

The main negative about 3 vessels is really the physical space required, plus the extra tubing and pumps. All the third vessel (HLT) does is heat up water. It doesn't even need to be cleaned. So we're pretty much always talking about a 2 vs. 1 vessel cleaning situation.

I like 2 vessels personally, because I am a little obsessive about getting clear wort into the boil. I have brewed with all configurations, so I've made that decision based on my own personal experience, which will be different from someone else's. Anyway, to achieve this, you really have to drain from your BIAB mash vessel into the kettle before lifting the bag. Then you can lift, drain, and filter the rest.

It's a little more viable to get clear wort into the boil if a basket is involved, because it doesn't disturb the grain bed as much if you are careful and slow. In that type of setup, 1 vessel can do the trick.

Does this method make sense if I have a BIAB system(similar to Bobby’s) and wanted to have clear wort for the boil. After the mash is complete, the wort is pumped to my old 10 gallon brew kettle as sort of a “holding” vessel. The grain bag is removed and BIAB kettle is rinsed out. Then wort is transferred back to the BIAB kettle for the boil. That way I would only have one expensive kettle.

 

[McKnuckle]

^Of course that would work. And it's a good way to use a spare kettle!

 

[BarryBrews]

Does this method make sense if I have a BIAB system(similar to Bobby’s) and wanted to have clear wort for the boil. After the mash is complete, the wort is pumped to my old 10 gallon brew kettle as sort of a “holding” vessel. The grain bag is removed and BIAB kettle is rinsed out. Then wort is transferred back to the BIAB kettle for the boil. That way I would only have one expensive kettle.

AKA 2 vessel system. Works great for clear wort.

 

[tf_brew]

Thanks for the info. This post has been great in helping decide what direction I want to go in. I am fairly new to homebrewing (15-20 all grain brew sessions) but ready to setup from my igloo coolers. Going electric will allow me to move indoors(my garage in Wisconsin has lost all appeal) and have better control my mash conditions.

 

[Bobby_M]

Does this method make sense if I have a BIAB system(similar to Bobby’s) and wanted to have clear wort for the boil. After the mash is complete, the wort is pumped to my old 10 gallon brew kettle as sort of a “holding” vessel. The grain bag is removed and BIAB kettle is rinsed out. Then wort is transferred back to the BIAB kettle for the boil. That way I would only have one expensive kettle.

And the million dollar question is how much "STUFF" do you find in the bottom of the kettle that needs to be cleaned out.

I performed my first half of my experiment where used a separate mash tun and my eKettle as a RIMS for the "clean wort boil" but ended up having to scrap the batch because someone (probably me) put Hallertau Magnum into the Hallertau Mittelfrue bin and I failed to look closely before dumping them in. I'm not going to dump this batch, but I'm sure not going to repeat the mistake for the cloudy wort half of the experiment.

 

[McKnuckle]

I pumped the wort out of my BIAB mash tun today into another kettle before pulling the basket. After the wort dropped below the level of the ball valve and pump, I lifted the basket and let it drain into a bucket.

The wort under the basket was close to a gallon in volume. I poured it over a 75 micron filter and it produced 3 piles of this type of grain silt (pictured). In other words, I loaded and cleared the filter three times. This was a 2.x gallon batch with 3 kg / 6.6 lbs of grain.

The wort in the tun - which I failed to photograph - looked much worse, having large clumps of this murky stuff floating around. It looks more tame when trapped by the filter.



What's notable is that if I did what I was supposed to and just lifted and drained the basket, then proceeded to boil in place, I wouldn't even know this stuff was down there.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yeah, again I'm not arguing. But for me, I use my rubber bbq gloves, squeeze the scrap out of it, then spray my gloves with the hose (which is less than 5' away). Not much of a mess for me. To be honest, if my ladder was tall enough, I would let the bag sit over the kettle, but it's not. Now, I leave my cooler mash tun (on the ground) under the ladder while my wort boils in the pot. I usually squeeze a few minutes before boil. Mind you, I've been brewing for many years but I'm new to BIAB.

I dont even use gloves. I have 12-14 LBS of grain and whatever liquid in my bag for a5-7 gallon batch. I pull it up, and squeeze it (in situ) right over the kettle. I squeeze that mother as hard as I can. Its a little hot, but not that I cant handle it. I then dump my bag in a separate pot with a colander inverted, to let it drain some more. Turn my heat up on the kettle. As it is heating up, I squeeze the bag in top of the colander, and then take whatever juice is in my pot and add it to the kettle.