Anyone stop BIAB and return to more traditional Mash and Sparge techniques?

[Burndog]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

 

[MaxStout]

I tend to get in the range of 70-75% brewhouse efficiency, once in a while upper 70s. It can dip into the 60s for very high gravity beers, but an expected 1.070 like yours shouldn't yield so low. How is your crush? Have you experimented with finer crushes, or double-crushing?

 

[ba-brewer]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

Do you give your mash a period stir? I do it like every 15 or 20min, nothing crazy just a few turns to mix the grain well.

I calculate out my expected gravity then measure the mash gravity with a refractometer to determine when to drain based on gravity not time. Sometime conversion slows and is not done in 60min. That helped me get consistent efficiencies.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

When I switched from traditional mash tun to BIAB my efficiencies stayed the same.

Here's what I do--I can't claim to understand this stuff well enough to tear apart your methods and find a place you could change things, but perhaps this might help:

1. I dropped the gap in my mill from .035 to .020.

2. I brewed today--typically I've been using 7.25 gallons of water.

3. I squeeze the bag. Of that 7.25 gallons I can usually get 6.5 to 6.7 gallons of wort. It's hard to tell exactly as wort at 154 degrees (my mash temp today) takes up more volume than cold water that I start with.

I do not sparge--squeeze enough and you'll get enough.

4. I stir at 15 minutes into the mash, making sure I bring up the mash from the bottom to the top, to make sure I'm fully mixing everything.

I take a sample at 15 minutes after stirring to check pH--but I also check gravity to see how I'm doing. Today that sample was at 1.039 at 15 minutes; at 60 minutes it was at 1.0495. So much of my conversion is happening very quickly.

5. I also stir at 30 minutes.

6. After the boil my gravity (what is OG) was 1.058


So you're using 7 gallons of water total compared to my 7.25. What do you end up with for gallons of yield? I'm leaving behind maybe 2/3 to 3/4 gallon after mercilessly squeezing.

I had a theory that seems more or less correct, after experimentation, that squeezing with no sparge was analogous to a dunk sparge and squeeze. Seemed to be pretty much the same.

So my guess is that since you're using less water than I am--and your grain bill is likely larger than mine, I only had 11# of grain, your bill must be larger--that you need more water in there somewhere. You say you're squeezing but without knowing what your yield is, it's hard to tell if you're squeezing enough. I suspect you're leaving a lot behind in the grain.

If I were you, my keys would be make sure your crush gap is .020, stir at 15 minutes and 30 minutes, use enough water, and squeeze more instead of dunk sparging.

My 2 cents--hope some of it may help. Good luck!

 

[Burndog]

I tend to get in the range of 70-75% brewhouse efficiency, once in a while upper 70s. It can dip into the 60s for very high gravity beers, but an expected 1.070 like yours shouldn't yield so low. How is your crush? Have you experimented with finer crushes, or double-crushing?

I grind my own with a new Cereal grinder set to .034. Have not considered double grinding....

 

[Burndog]

Do you give your mash a period stir? I do it like every 15 or 20min, nothing crazy just a few turns to mix the grain well.

I calculate out my expected gravity then measure the mash gravity with a refractometer to determine when to drain based on gravity not time. Sometime conversion slows and is not done in 60min. That helped me get consistent efficiencies.

Initial stir to assure good coverage and no dough balls. The another good stir before removing the bag and squeezing.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have used full volume BIAB exclusively for many batches, and have had no trouble dialing in acceptable mash efficiency in the 70-77% range. That being said, I have run a couple of batch-sparge-in-a-cooler efforts recently, just to revisit the process. My goal was not to improve efficiency, but rather just to see about ease of wort collection, clean up, stuff like that. I have a fixed gap on my mill, so that factor is constant.

My mash efficiency was 80% with the batch sparge. I had to vorlauf, which is a minor extra step. And I felt compelled to tip the cooler into the kettle (pressing the grist back with a spatula) to recover some more wort. There was a lot in there - basically as much as you might drain from the bag. After many BIAB batches, I couldn't waste that wort.

Some people complain about cleaning the bag; they prefer hosing out the cooler. But I brew and clean up inside, and the cooler is a pain to handle in a sink. I make a mess repeatedly rinsing and dumping it. The bag seems easier for me to handle.

Next brew I am going to repeat the standard batch sparge, same as these last couple of times, BUT I may line my cooler with the bag first. So it's a hybrid approach which leverages the bag as an additional filter and wort collection aid. This will give me the ability to avoid vorlauf, and a simple way to recover absorbed wort (hanging the bag and letting it drip into the kettle). I am set up for that with a pulley, so it's no big deal.

At the end of the day, all of these methods work fine. It is more about one's preferences and ability to achieve consistency, which then enables the brewer to better predict the outcome from a particular recipe. That to me is the end goal.

 

[mongoose33]

I grind my own with a new Cereal grinder set to .034. Have not considered double grinding....

I forgot to include that in my post--I always double-crush. The second crush is very fast.

I think that's your issue, right above. Your crush is too coarse. Get that gap down to .020 and see what you get.

 

[Burndog]

Get that gap down to .020 and see what you get.

Will do... Moving to .020 and we'll see where that gets me. Thanks for the tips!

 

[ba-brewer]

Initial stir to assure good coverage and no dough balls. The another good stir before removing the bag and squeezing.

I see you plan to go with a finer grind which should help conversion, but if your grain bed get too compacted a quick stir or two midway through would not hurt.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I find that I have to adjust my mill gap. It won't catch at all at .020 so I have to run it through at .035 or so, tighten to .020, and run through again. Kind of a PITA

 

[Burndog]

I find that I have to adjust my mill gap. It won't catch at all at .020 so I have to run it through at .035 or so, tighten to .020, and run through again. Kind of a PITA

Gotta wonder how much difference there is with the readjustment over simply running through twice... I agree changing the offset seems a pain.

 

[sillbeer]

I started off with extract then stepped up to an 18 gallon kettle and two Rubbermaid coolers. I changed over to electric, picked up a custom false bottom then started BIAB. After a short time I went back to a 3 vessel system and enjoy it more. I liked the streamlined process of BIAB but I enjoy doing each brew step with 3 kettles. I've made good beers both ways and definitely can't knock either process.

 

[Slydan]

Literally just did my first all grain BIAB batch 3 days ago assuming 70%. I had a really good crush and mashed at 154 for 1 hour. I batch sparged because I'm using a 5 gallon kettle for a 3 gallon batch and the 7 pounds of grain was pushing it at 4.5 gallons.

So I actually ended up with more into the fermenter because my boil off was set too high and my grain abortion was too high as well. I had 1.5g boil off set and 0.5 grain absorption. 0.25 calculated for trub lose caltulated. 3.00 gallons was supposed to go for 2.75 total beer. I ended up somewhere between 3.75 and 4 gallons into primary.

With all those numbers taken into account my projected efficiency at this time is 83%. Unless fermentation stalls I would bet money it would end up at 80% or higher with my projected FG, my numbers are essentially dead on considering the higher volume, and this was my first BIAB. The OG of the batch was 10.059. Some things I may have done differently was I stirred the mash twice and checked the temperature during the 60 minutes because I wasn't sure what kind of temperature drop I would get. I ended up adding a little 159 degree water to bring it up from 150 to 154 during the last 30 minutes. I had batch sparged with very warm water and squeezed the **** out of the bag in the sparge.

The reason I added the water was because I spent so much time stirring and looking for dough balls and breaking them up. I followed all the tips on this forum that most people have associated with a drop in efficiency and it paid off. As I understand it the biggest causes for low efficiency in BIAB is:

1. Bad Crush
2. Thick mash
3. Dough balls

I also think that the small volume sparge and squeezing the bag probably added at least 5%. There was a ton of VERY sweet wort on those grains. But thats just a guess. It was my first shot, and I did a lot of efficiency research before I started. I would have been very happy with 70% considering a lot of people get between 60 and 70 on the post boil.

I am totally new to this, but my common sense makes me things its a crush and dough issue. When I did the above recipe the dough balls were bad... and I added roughly a pound at a time to the mash, I spent like 15 minutes working them all out, and I stirred the mash twice. I believe the stirring helped too... but, what do I know? I'm just incredibly surprised with my numbers. should be 5.9 or 6.0 abv after fermentation.

 

[Kassad]

For small batch (1 gallon) BIAB, has anyone used a steel watering can for the sparge? I'd like to kow how it went.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00173ELYK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

So you have your un-sparged wort, then in another kettle heat your sparge water, then add it to the watering can.

Place the drained grain bag in a strainer or colander above the mash kettle. Sprinkle the heated sparge water over the surface of the grain using the watering can, rinsing them evenly and slowly.

 

[Miraculix]

Went up from 55% to 76%, both using store crushed malts. The key was using the whole volume of water I want to have afterwards in the fermenter during mashing and than at the end, after all the easy to get Wort has been extracted, Sparge with a bit of cold water to flush the rest Wort out of the grains and to cool the bag. Then at the end give the bag a good squeeze and getting above 70% should be done in no time.

 

[TorMag]

Literally just did my first all grain BIAB batch 3 days ago assuming 70%. I had a really good crush and mashed at 154 for 1 hour. I batch sparged because I'm using a 5 gallon kettle for a 3 gallon batch and the 7 pounds of grain was pushing it at 4.5 gallons.

So I actually ended up with more into the fermenter because my boil off was set too high and my grain abortion was too high as well. I had 1.5g boil off set and 0.5 grain absorption. 0.25 calculated for trub lose caltulated. 3.00 gallons was supposed to go for 2.75 total beer. I ended up somewhere between 3.75 and 4 gallons into primary.

With all those numbers taken into account my projected efficiency at this time is 83%. Unless fermentation stalls I would bet money it would end up at 80% or higher with my projected FG, my numbers are essentially dead on considering the higher volume, and this was my first BIAB. The OG of the batch was 10.059. Some things I may have done differently was I stirred the mash twice and checked the temperature during the 60 minutes because I wasn't sure what kind of temperature drop I would get. I ended up adding a little 159 degree water to bring it up from 150 to 154 during the last 30 minutes. I had batch sparged with very warm water and squeezed the **** out of the bag in the sparge.

The reason I added the water was because I spent so much time stirring and looking for dough balls and breaking them up. I followed all the tips on this forum that most people have associated with a drop in efficiency and it paid off. As I understand it the biggest causes for low efficiency in BIAB is:

1. Bad Crush
2. Thick mash
3. Dough balls

I also think that the small volume sparge and squeezing the bag probably added at least 5%. There was a ton of VERY sweet wort on those grains. But thats just a guess. It was my first shot, and I did a lot of efficiency research before I started. I would have been very happy with 70% considering a lot of people get between 60 and 70 on the post boil.

I am totally new to this, but my common sense makes me things its a crush and dough issue. When I did the above recipe the dough balls were bad... and I added roughly a pound at a time to the mash, I spent like 15 minutes working them all out, and I stirred the mash twice. I believe the stirring helped too... but, what do I know? I'm just incredibly surprised with my numbers. should be 5.9 or 6.0 abv after fermentation.

This French Whip on Amazon works fantastic for breaking up dough balls, very happy with it. Fairly Cheap too, at $13.

http://amzn.to/2gXZUv1

 

[kevin58]

The reason I ask is that I like brewing posted recipes. Pliny Clone 4.0 is one of my favorites so far.

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what? Ramp up the qty of grains so final sugars/OG is inline with the original recipe?

That seems to be a guessing game and not conducive to the precise ingredients some of these recipes demand.

Granted I'm late to this conversation and too lazy to read all the posts... but if you use Beersmith all you have to do is click the adjust OG button and scale the recipe to whatever OG you want. No guessing involved.

 

[kevin58]

nevermind.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Granted I'm late to this conversation and too lazy to read all the posts... but if you use Beersmith all you have to do is click the adjust OG button and scale the recipe to whatever OG you want. No guessing involved.

I'm sure you realized it, hence the nevermind but for those reading. No, beersmith does not have a efficiency prediction model. You MUST tell beersmith what efficiency you anticipate in order to get an OG, it will not adjust your efficiency based on the amount of grains being used.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm sure you realized it, hence the nevermind but for those reading. No, beersmith does not have a efficiency prediction model. You MUST tell beersmith what efficiency you anticipate in order to get an OG, it will not adjust your efficiency based on the amount of grains being used.

Come on Mark, drop the other shoe. Your calculator does have a lauter efficiency model that adjusts efficiency based on grain bill size. See the link in his sig.

Brew on

 

[Kassad]

I am getting ready to do my first 1 gallon BIAB and I am trying to decide between two choices for sparging.

They both start with heating a gallon of drinking water up to 160-165 degrees, then adding your grain bag and letting sit for an hour. While waiting, heat a gallon of sparge water to 170-180 degrees F.

On to sparging. Two methods:

1. Place the drained grain bag in the 1 gallon of heated sparge water and let sit for a few minutes. Then, pour the sparge water back into the mash kettle. Hopefully I'll have about 1.5 gallons of wort in the kettle. My first question with this method would be, how long to let the grain bag sit in the sparge water (how long is 'a few minutes)?

2. Place the drained grain in a strainer, colander, or similar kitchen device, above the mash kettle. Sprinkle the sparge water over the surface of the grain, attempting to rinse them evenly and slowly, using a ladle or measuring cup for this process. Stop sparging once you’ve got about 1.5 gallons of liquid in the kettle. Dispose of the spent grain.

So which method works best - soaking the grains in a gallon of more water, or running the same amount of water over the grain bag into the brew kettle?

 

[McKnuckle]

So which method works best - soaking the grains in a gallon of more water, or running the same amount of water over the grain bag into the brew kettle?

My preference is the soak, otherwise known as a dunk sparge, akin to a traditional batch sparge. It gives you better opportunity to stir and dislodge additional sugars, and is more guaranteed to saturate all of the grain. Plus you get to raise and gravity-drain the bag a second time.

The pour-over sparge is like a shower where you're done as soon as the water runs out. It's not as consistent or thorough.

 

[kevin58]

I'm sure you realized it, hence the nevermind but for those reading. No, beersmith does not have a efficiency prediction model. You MUST tell beersmith what efficiency you anticipate in order to get an OG, it will not adjust your efficiency based on the amount of grains being used.

Um, did I say efficiency? No.

And the never mind was for a completely separate reply to another comment. Thanks for playing though.

 

[doug293cz]

Um, did I say efficiency? No.

And the never mind was for a completely separate reply to another comment. Thanks for playing though.

No, you forgot to mention efficiency. Scaling a recipe over a wide range of OG's has an effect on the lauter efficiency (because larger grain bills have lower lauter efficiency for the same pre-boil volume), and that must be accounted for if you want accurate results. Most recipe scaling software doesn't automatically take the change in efficiency into account.

Brew on

 

[kevin58]

No, you forgot to mention efficiency. Scaling a recipe over a wide range of OG's has an effect on the lauter efficiency (because larger grain bills have lower lauter efficiency for the same pre-boil volume), and that must be accounted for if you want accurate results. Most recipe scaling software doesn't automatically take the change in efficiency into account.

Brew on

It may help to refresh memories of what the original poster asked:
But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what? Ramp up the qty of grains so final sugars/OG is inline with the original recipe?

That seems to be a guessing game and not conducive to the precise ingredients some of these recipes demand.

I simply pointed out that if using Beersmith he could use the adjust OG... which I got wrong and is actually "Adjust Gravity" (shown in attached screenshot... home tab, third item from the left on top) which takes the guessing out of it. It was a question of OG not efficiency.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Try again, you're still not getting the relationship between grains, and OG.

If you increases the amount of grain, you're decreasing the efficiency, and increasing the OG. The three are inextricably linked.

Beersmith ignores the efficiency relationship, which is why it lets you do that.

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what? Ramp up the qty of grains so final sugars/OG is inline with the original recipe?

So you increase the amount of grain, which decreases the efficiency, and increases the amount of water needed, then increase the amount of grain a tiny bit more. Repeat until recipe OG and software OG matches. This is really the only way to do this correctly, and no software (besides mine AFAIK) does this.

The way other software (read: beersmith, brewersfriend etc) work ist hat YOU input the efficiency, then you adjust the amount of grain (with no loss in efficiency) until the OG matches the recipe. Then when you actually brew it, you don't hit your target because the software can not antipate changes in gravity. This is why there's rules of thumb like (

if you go over 1.090, expect to lose 10% mash efficiency

. The issue with those guidelines is that it's not a sudden decrease, it's a continuous one.