Anyone stop BIAB and return to more traditional Mash and Sparge techniques?

[Biscuits]

I went back to a traditional method once I had the room. BIAB seemed the way to go when I was constrained by space limitations (renting a room)...and I was brewing 1-2 gallon batches. Now that I am back home in my house and I have a garage I have a 10 gallon cooler I mash in for 5 gallon+ batches.

Main reasons for going back is that I didn't want to lift the bag out and squeeze or rig a pulley system to do so....plus, contrary to popular belief, it is easier to spray out my mash tun than it is to clean the bag.

Just my $0.02

 

[applescrap]

Probably gonna have to go coarser if you want to recirculate...




This is the issue I've had.. especially the layering.. I mean it's not a small difference either.. With the finely crushed grain, it's exacerbated as the grain acts like an insulator between the hot liquor underneath and the liquor in and above the mash...

So, I'm mostly already all set up to recirculate, so that's what I'm gonna try.. Recirculate as I heat the mash water, then slowly introduce the grains at a lower temp than I want to mash at, recirculating through the whole process, bring up to mash temp, and then keep recirculating and stirring throughout the whole time I'm mashing, carefully monitoring mash temp in the whole mash, the whole time..

This issue has caused me to create a lot of unfermentables, which causes me to never hit finish gravity, and leaves a 'wort' taste to one degree or another in the finished beer... Wort is not the best tasting thing to drink...

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

 

[applescrap]

I have to agree, without a wench to help you with your sac, I remain unconvinced this is the easiest way. Even though I know mash temp doesnt matter I still try to insulate. Two vessel i believe will become norm. All that being said I can brew 5g in 2 hr 40 min and 11 in three so its hard to switch because brewing fast is my thing. For 11g batches i use 2 bags.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I would definitely look at your crush and your water chemistry. Adjusting your mash pH can do wonders for you conversion, and you don't need a pH meter because you just need to be in the ballpark. Between crushing fine, adjusting pH, and a sparge, I get 80% efficiency predictably.

 

[rhys333]

Up front, BIAB and 3-vessel are both capable of producing excellent quality beer and it's down to what you feel comfortable with. I'm sticking with BIAB because I see it as faster, easier, simpler, and more cost-effective when considering the two options. I mash in a 5 gallon pot indoors and then dunk sparge outdoors in the brew pot. This allows maximum heat retention (virtually zero heat loss in 60-90 mins) and saves on propane. For aveage gravity 5-8 gallon batches, I can't think of a downside to BIAB. The procedure is perfectly suited to small batch brewing.

 

[r8rphan]

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

Not true.. Go see my thread in this forum about 4 ruined batches in a row...

 

[r8rphan]

without a wench to help you with your sac

This has been an issue since the beginning of human history!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I switched to BIAB when I felt like my brew rig (which I designed to make life easier...) became too complicated with a pump, plate chiller, cooler MLT, keggle, etc. I see myself refining the BIAB process and probably moving to EBIAB, but not going back to a traditional 2 or 3 vessel setup. I'll likely try out the Robobrew for indoor brewing during winter and doing a 2nd batch at the same time during normal brew days. The simpler I can make the process, the better!

 

[jrcrilly]

Unless you are step mashing there is absolutely no reason to recirculate imo, and I can guarantee over time some of the rigs that I see that people clean in place if i were to take everything apart with wrenches etc, there would be undesirable gunk. The easiest way to dial in mash temp is cooler, imo.

There are valid reasons to recirculate but temperature control isn't one of them (though temperature consistency throughout the mash volume definitely IS a good one). Temp control and recirc go together because heat losses caused by recirc require some form of makeup heat. That is why recirculation schemes incorporating such things as RIMS and HERMS are so common. When I added recirc to my system I also incorporated a heat exchanger but that was because my upgraded system required makeup heat.

 

[Kent88]

I went from BIAB to traditional, and now I've hybridized them as my false bottom isn't doing its job.

When I did stove-top BIAB I was to quick to turn the burner on when the temp started dropping a little. Then another part of the mash would get to hot, I'd curse, shut off the burner, stir, wait 5 minutes and repeat.

The cooler holds heat a *lot* better so once I get my temp dialed in I am set, and I am forced to go slower, consider what I'm doing before I alter the mash too much.

 

[robcj]

Temp control and recirc go together because heat losses caused by recirc require some form of makeup heat. That is why recirculation schemes incorporating such things as RIMS and HERMS are so common.

Very true. I sometimes recirculate if I overshoot my strike temperature. If you want to turn down the temperature, just turn on the pump.

Traditional BIAB already suffers from poor temperature control and I don't think there is great value in recirculating during BIAB unless you go RIMS, which is what I did.

I have a 20 gallon kettle with two return ports (one for mash recirculation and one for chilling) and a portable platform with pump, RIMS tube and chiller. I use propane to get close to my mash temperature then let the RIMS and controller take over. It's just 110V but that's enough to maintain mash temperatures for both 5 and 10 gallon batches. I like mashing for longer--90 minutes if I want great attenuation or even longer sometimes if I have other things to do. RIMS let's me do that.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1501654087.905010.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1501654113.613623.jpg

 

[TexasWine]

I switched from single-vessel to two-vessel for two primary reasons. One, two-vessel allows me to pre boil the water and underlet my mash. Two, I wanted crystal clear wort going into the boil and I was never going to accomplish that using a bag.

Both of these are key to my process, and my beers have seen a significant upgrade combining these two changes with some other small tweaks.

 

[applescrap]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

 

[doug293cz]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

Link?

Brew on

 

[rhys333]

Link?

Brew on

I think this is it:
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[r8rphan]

I think this is it:
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

I think complete sentences are a better way to communicate.. call me crazy..

 

[r8rphan]

Very true. I sometimes recirculate if I overshoot my strike temperature. If you want to turn down the temperature, just turn on the pump.

Traditional BIAB already suffers from poor temperature control and I don't think there is great value in recirculating during BIAB unless you go RIMS, which is what I did.

I have a 20 gallon kettle with two return ports (one for mash recirculation and one for chilling) and a portable platform with pump, RIMS tube and chiller. I use propane to get close to my mash temperature then let the RIMS and controller take over. It's just 110V but that's enough to maintain mash temperatures for both 5 and 10 gallon batches. I like mashing for longer--90 minutes if I want great attenuation or even longer sometimes if I have other things to do. RIMS let's me do that.

View attachment 409469
View attachment 409470

As far as heat control goes, what's the difference between recirculation with a RIMS and using the heating element in the kettle?

Seems like the same concept to me, only using the kettle itself as the RIMS tube, but maybe there's something I'm not considering..

 

[r8rphan]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

what other thread?

 

[r8rphan]

never mind.. I know what thread you're talking about now..

 

[applescrap]

This Thread is got me thinking again about cooler biab. And or even a cooler with a sparge. Look I need a jacket to cover the mash even though i know it's unnecessary. I need a colander to squeeze the bag and a bucket to squeeze it into. And a lid to squeeze the bag. The people who use coolers have reported being very happy with them. They hold temp well, they clean easy, and you just dump the grains out of it. I don't know if I would just use a cooler with false bottom and batch sparge or use a bag and full volume and squeeze or batch sparge and squeeze. It's my understanding that batch sparge does a pretty good job on its own. The only problem for some is lifting the cooler or using gravity but that's not a problem to me.

I started a thread on the discussion of biab and coolers and the joy of true biab needs some way to drain and squeeze the bag without a lot of extra equipment. With all the extra equipment a cooler starting to sound nice. Plus a batch sparge and squeeze gives pretty good efficiency. Also at the speed I am Brewing I think I will be able to speed up and get even closer to two hours. The initial volume will heat very quickly and I can heat the batch water while it mashes.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My workaround is a Papazian Zapap...one bucket w/ a bunch of holes drilled set in a bottling bucket w/ spigot. I lift with a pulley, let it drain into the kettle, swing it to the bucket, and can either put gloves on and push on it or use another bucket to push on the grain bag. Drain out of the spigot into the kettle.

 

[robcj]

As far as heat control goes, what's the difference between recirculation with a RIMS and using the heating element in the kettle?

Seems like the same concept to me, only using the kettle itself as the RIMS tube, but maybe there's something I'm not considering..

You're right--it's the same concept. I should have clarified: I don't think there is good value in recirculating a BIAB mash without a heat source that can be controlled with reasonable precision.

I personally chose RIMS rather than eBIAB with an element in the kettle because I wanted an external solution that I could use with other vessels.

 

[ba-brewer]

I switched from single-vessel to two-vessel for two primary reasons. One, two-vessel allows me to pre boil the water and underlet my mash. Two, I wanted crystal clear wort going into the boil and I was never going to accomplish that using a bag.

Both of these are key to my process, and my beers have seen a significant upgrade combining these two changes with some other small tweaks.

Is your 2 vessel system a brutus type system or something else, still electric?

 

[TexasWine]

Is your 2 vessel system a brutus type system or something else, still electric?

Nope, just a plain Jane two vessel. Heat and pre boil in the boil kettle, underlet the mash, recirculate the mash, transfer back to the boil kettle when the mash is done.

All electric, using a Brau Supply controller.

 

[thunderwagn]

I'm moving from BIAB to a cooler mash tun. I have zero issues with the BIAB method and have produced great brews using it. I have no efficiency issues. I've done it enough, my process and numbers are all spot on. My reasons may be petty to some, but worth a switch to me, and I guess I'm the one that counts.
I want a separation from mash tun/kettle.
I'm tired of lifting and or hoisting a grain bag full of steamy hot liquid.
I want to brew some beers with larger grain bills (and larger batch sizes)...again, more weight and steam hot liquid.
And just kinda ready for a change.

 

[ba-brewer]

Nope, just a plain Jane two vessel. Heat and pre boil in the boil kettle, underlet the mash, recirculate the mash, transfer back to the boil kettle when the mash is done.

All electric, using a Brau Supply controller.

So a full volume mash, are you doing anything for temp control during the mash?

thanks for the information.

 

[TexasWine]

So a full volume mash, are you doing anything for temp control during the mash?

thanks for the information.

Yes, full volume, no sparge mash. And yes, the Brau Supply controller keeps the temp steady whilst recirculating.

Just an FYI, another option with the two vessel approach is to mash k-rims style, circulating through both vessels. Haven't done it yet, but I'm looking for easy ways to increase batch size without a sparge, and this would do the trick.

 

[jan_b19]

Try keeping a little bit of water to the side and batch sparge the bag after mashing. I had some efficiency issues before as well, but just batch sparging for a couple of minutes enabled me to stay within 0.02 points of my target every time.

 

[r8rphan]

My workaround is a Papazian Zapap...one bucket w/ a bunch of holes drilled set in a bottling bucket w/ spigot. I lift with a pulley, let it drain into the kettle, swing it to the bucket, and can either put gloves on and push on it or use another bucket to push on the grain bag. Drain out of the spigot into the kettle.

I'm gonna have to look into this... Might be just the solution I need for squeezing the bag.. Definitely simpler than what I was planning....

 

[schematix]

I just switched to 2-vessel full volume mash with RIMS from traditional 3-v w/ RIMS. Same as TexasWine described except with different controls. Much simpler to manage...