Kolsch with a slightly "bready" finish

[mamonteiro]

Hello fellow brewers,

One of the best Kolsch brews I've ever had was from a brew pub in CT. It had a very slight bread flavor on the finish. I've been trying to duplicate this in my homebrew but I have no idea how to get there. I used flaked corn in my first attempt to cut the malt and hop flavors, and German Ale/Kolsch White Labs WLP029 yeast, hoping the grain flavor would stand up, but it did not. The brew is good but it is not the flavor I was hoping for. I ended up with a nice, easy drinking session brew. Any thoughts on what to try next?

 

[JonM]

Kolsches are all Pilsner, I think. The bready flavor has to come from that, so perhaps they're doing a decoction mash?

 

[Beernik]

Try biscuit or victory malt. Biscuit is kind of like a saltine cracker flavor. Victory is more nutty toasted bread flavor.

Or maybe even a little Munich or Vienna. Munich is a bold, malty sweet toast flavor. Vienna is a lighter, less sweet, malty toast flavor.

In my mind, decoction brings a malty, smooth flavor. I don't think of it as bready.

 

[Omahawk]

"Bready" is a malt flavor - I wouldn't add any corn if you're going for that profile. As Beernik suggested, some Victory, Biscuit or Munich will add that range of flavor. If you want to stay in the Kolsch style, don't add much. It should be mostly Pilsner.

 

[TobyG]

With Kolsch you want a majority Pilsner malt with a little Vienna to give it that toastiness. My recipe uses about 87.5 percent Pils with about 7.5 percent Vienna (the other 5% is Carafoam for head retention). Exact numbers are 18#/1.5#/1# for a 10 gallon batch.

 

[mamonteiro]

Thanks for the feedback! Yes, I am looking for a malty, grain, bread flavor without the malty sweetness finish. That is what I thought the flaked corn would do, cut that sweetness. Originally I had planned to use grits until I read how much of a PITA it was to brew with. So I settled on the flaked corn. Looks like I will change my grain bill; maybe it is that toastiness from the Vienna malt I need? I used 6.25 lbs of 2 Row Pale Malt and 1 lb of Munich, along with the 1 lb of flaked corn for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[Beernik]

I'd say for your next attempt to change the 2 row to Pilsen and drop the Munich or Vienna to 1/2 lb.

Kolsch is a delicately flavored beer. It won't take a lot of Munich or Vienna to over power it and get the SRM too high.

 

[HungusBrews]

I have had great luck with 90% Pils, 5% White Wheat, and 5% Carafoam. All Weyerman malts. Mash at 149. Pitch a lot of healthy yest and ferment in the low 60's. After a lagering period to get all of the yeast to drop, that pils malt flavor really pops.

 

[mamonteiro]

My original recipe used Pilsner German 2 Row. I'm not really sure why I changed it to 2 Row Pale Malt. So, here is my new recipe:
7.75lbs Pilsner (2 Row) German
.5lbs Carafoam
.5lbs Vienna Malt
.25lbs Munich Malt
German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029)
1.5oz Hallertauer (4.8%)

Hoping this will give me that fresh baked bread flavor on the end.

Thoughts?

 

[TobyG]

Skip the Munich (you can bump up the Vienna to 0.75#). Make sure you keep your fermentation temp relatively low for an ale. If you can keep ambient at 60F, that's perfect. I prefer Wyeast 2565, YMMV. I also use Spalter just to be a little different.

 

[mamonteiro]

After a little research I think I will replace the .25lb Munich with .25lb Victory.

 

[mamonteiro]

My local brew supply doesn't carry Wyeast products. That is what I am used to brewing with. Since we moved here last October I've had to change to White Labs.

 

[TobyG]

Nothing wrong with White Labs at all. I just prefer Wyeast's Kolsch slightly. For other yeasts (specifically Scottish and Irish), I use them interchangeably. As far as Victory goes, I associate it more with British styles for a biscuity aroma/taste rather than toasty.

 

[mamonteiro]

Yeah, the Victory is a wild card. I read that it is used more in Brown Ales, but in a small quantity it may get me where I want to be. I've never used it before but it seems to make more sense than the Munich. Something fun to play with!

 

[mamonteiro]

I had the wrong equipment profile entered into my recipe on BeerSmith. So here is what I am going to do (updated):

6.75lb Pilsner (2 Row) German
.25 lb Carafoam
.25 lb Munich 10L
.25 lb Victory
.25 lb Vienna
German Ale/Kolsch- White Labs WLP029
1.5 oz Hallertauer (5.5%)

Last question: I have been reading that a 90 minute boil is better for Pilsner Malt. Sooo..... 60 or 90 minute boil? GO!

 

[TobyG]

I started doing at least a 90 minute boil on just about everything (I do a 2 hour boil on a couple things), but especially with anything Pilsner malt-based (my Kolsch and Saison). It helps to drive off any DMS potential.

 

[mamonteiro]

I brewed this yesterday. It was a long day, about 6 hours from clean to clean, but pretty smooth and uneventful. I was slightly short of my OG reading but I started with a higher volume so that was expected. I didn't achieve the cold break I usually see. I got the temp down to 75-80 in about 15 minutes in an ice bath but my beer stayed murky. I'm hoping it settles out in the primary but I'm afraid it will be a cloudy Kolsch.

 

[Beernik]

If it doesn't clear, add some gelatin.

Good luck!

 

[mamonteiro]

I moved it to secondary today. A little early than I usually like but I wanted to get it off the trub since I didn't get a good cold break. I think the clarity will be ok. My original gravity was 1.044 and my gravity today was 1.006. Lower than the fg I was shooting for! I tasted the gravity sample and it is punch-you-in-the-face Kolsch flavor. It will mellow out over the next 5 weeks and hopefully I will end up where I wanted to be. Thanks for the guidance! Great advice!!

 

[TobyG]

The concept of getting punched in the face with Kolsch flavor just seems so wrong and contradictory. lol

 

[solbes]

Let us know how it turns out. When I think Victory, I think of a nutty flavor thats well suited to Browns and beers like Fat Tire. But maybe at 4 oz it will give you the bready taste you're looking for. I also use 2565 and have never tried WLP029. But I think its common to need gelatin finings for both, so keep that in mind. I always gel my Kolsch's in secondary at about 35F to clear them up.

My Kolsch recipe is mostly Pils (with about 40% Global Kolsch malt), 1/2 lb of white wheat, a tidge of carapils, and 10 oz of honey at flameout.

My last batch I did a single decoction and I thought the result was fantastic. As stated above this gives it a slightly malty edge, and I detect no bready flavors that I so like in a bitter or other beers.

 

[Omahawk]

Ha. Sounds like a good beer that I'd like, but doesn't sound like a Kolsch. Call it what you will, glad it turned out good.

 

[indianaroller]

Use a good German Pilsner malt and about 5% German Vienna/Munich. Do not use domestic (US) 6 row varieties, it won't be the same.


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[ncsuwerewolf]

We brew kölsch with only 2 malts , best maltz heidelberg and a few ounces of melanoidin, tetenang for hops and wyeast for the yeast. Taste better than the commercial kölsch i had last week. Probably why we have brewed 40 gallons to get us to o fest season.

 

[mamonteiro]

I've been an assistant homebrewer since 2007 but I just recently (February 2014) started brewing on my own with my own equipment. I know the flavor profile I am looking for and I know the beer I can compare the flavor to was called a Kolsch. I am talking about a Kolsch-style Ale, I am not quite up to lagering yet, although I have been starting to read up on it. When I put my ingredients into BeerSmith2 it says it fits perfectly into a "blonde" category, but I thought the flavor profile should more suit a kolsch style ale. It fits pretty well in that category too. We have always brewed what everyone calls an exceptional blonde. I, as well as my brew buddy, have both served our blonde at our weddings. I have two blond recipes and don't want another. This beer had some bold flavors on day 5, which is what I want. I expect this will mellow out, as all my other brews have done over the course of fermentation, but I still want to taste my beer.

 

[mamonteiro]

After some networking I managed to get ahold of the recipe for the Kolsch I was trying to duplicate! Here ya go!

Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM)... 43.2%
Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)... 32.4%
Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)... 16.2%
Wheat Malt, Dark (9.0 SRM)... 8.1%
3oz Spalter Select (2.8%) 60 minute boil (for 5 gallon batch)
1.5oz Saaz (3.75%) 0 minute boil
German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) yeast.

The beer I brewed, mentioned earlier in the thread will be ready in a few weeks. I will let you know how it turns out!

 

[solbes]

Looks pretty standard except for the flameout Saaz. That's a little strange. Nothing in there that would give a bready finish. Do they do decoction mashes by chance? That can exaggerate a malty finish.

 

[rhys333]

I just stumbled across this old thread as I'm considering adding 2-3% Victory to my Kolsch tomorrow. Small amounts are recommended in lagers, so no reason it shouldn't work here too. Has anyone actually tried it?

90% 2 Row
7.5% Vienna
2.5% Victory
Hallertauer @ 60 & 15. 25 IBU
WY2565

 

[brewbama]

The recipe I use calls for Pilsner and .5 lb Vienna. The key IMHO is the yeast. Cheers!

 

[rhys333]

I'd still like to try a version with a small amount of Victory/biscuit. I imagine the Cologne breweries add a touch of this or that to make their beers stand out from the rest. For today though, I've decided to go a different route, base plus 8% Munich. Also opted for a slightly sweeter version compare to previous batches, with warmer 152F mash and hopping to the lower end of the range.

 

[filthyastronaut]

50/50 good continental pils and Vienna should get you there. Keep it simple, you could go all Pils but the Vienna will contribute more of that character if you really want it. No adjuncts.