How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?
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Desert_Sky
Since 1998
But....my woman loves it when I get all worked up and alkaline
err, wait. Ok you win, so theyre not interchangeable
Rhoobarb
Well-Known Member
USMCruz, is this really you?
Definitely. That's why none of us would consider fermenting at 80. Unless we were making a certain saison or Belgian.
I think that all of us agree that water affects the flavor of beer. I think we all agree that there are more important things besides water to focus our attention on.
However, once we are using proper techniques, like sanitation, temperature control, pitching rates; perhaps water is the next step?
You see, different chemistry in water does affect flavor. And I KNOW you aren't going to tell us that it doesn't. I think that is a point we can all agree on. What most on here are trying to explain, is that certain things in water, affect certain flavor aspects in the finished beer. Not only is there science behind it all (Lots of chemists work at breweries all over the world) but lots of proven flavor testing back it up as well.
There is a reason that certain beers were made in certain areas, even back before anyone had the knowledge to mess with their water. All they knew is that the beer that they make in that other place was harsh, or had funny flavors when brewed with their water. They used other malts and made a more enjoyable beer.
Eventually science gave us the reasons why.
However, once we are using proper techniques, like sanitation, temperature control, pitching rates; perhaps water is the next step?
You see, different chemistry in water does affect flavor. And I KNOW you aren't going to tell us that it doesn't. I think that is a point we can all agree on. What most on here are trying to explain, is that certain things in water, affect certain flavor aspects in the finished beer. Not only is there science behind it all (Lots of chemists work at breweries all over the world) but lots of proven flavor testing back it up as well.
There is a reason that certain beers were made in certain areas, even back before anyone had the knowledge to mess with their water. All they knew is that the beer that they make in that other place was harsh, or had funny flavors when brewed with their water. They used other malts and made a more enjoyable beer.
Eventually science gave us the reasons why.
What does making belgian or saison have to do with making a clean
tasting light beer?
Jim
I think you need go back and reread my posts. I'm not arguing that
water chemistry doesn't change flavor, I'm arguing that water chemistry
is the last thing you should look at when trying to rid your light beer
of off flavors.
The original poster in the RO thread complained about off flavors
in his light beers, but not in his dark. He gave his water analysis,
it was perfectly ok, not too hard, not too alkaline. Another poster
tries to tell him that he needs more sulphates because it supposedly
makes dark beers taste better. I try to tell them that dark malts
hide off flavors, and Uncle Festus tries to tell me that it doesn't,
that I'm ridiculous, etc and moves my thread out of brew science,
then tries to deny that bleach and vinegar aren't a safe combination.
This entire discussion has been so idiotic it's beyond belief.
Jim
Rushis
Well-Known Member
No, that is just wrong. Some chemical reactions produce more byproducts at higher temperatures. Many reactions require high temperatures to obtain any products. Your insistence on comparing a metabolic transformation to synthetic chemistry is off-base.
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
jdc2 said:
i'm so glad this thread's not dead. now i have something to do this afternoon!
Nyxator
Well-Known Member
This is anecdotal, but messing with the sulfate/chloride ratio of my water had a HUGE impact on the harsh bitter taste I was getting from light, hoppy beers.
Let's start by saying that the water where I live is pretty bad, so I've been brewing with RO water and adding salts. I did this for a long time with a limited understanding of how to do it right. Getting my chloride/sulfate ratio under control probably had the biggest impact on the taste of my beer out of everything else I've tried, and that includes fermenting at 78°F when I first started.
I think it's a very valid conclusion to jump to when someone complains about harsh tasting light beers.
I also think that the beers that became popular in various parts of the world evolved there because of the water, not the other way around. Stouts are popular in Dublin because of the alkalinity of their water, etc.
Let's start by saying that the water where I live is pretty bad, so I've been brewing with RO water and adding salts. I did this for a long time with a limited understanding of how to do it right. Getting my chloride/sulfate ratio under control probably had the biggest impact on the taste of my beer out of everything else I've tried, and that includes fermenting at 78°F when I first started.
I think it's a very valid conclusion to jump to when someone complains about harsh tasting light beers.
I also think that the beers that became popular in various parts of the world evolved there because of the water, not the other way around. Stouts are popular in Dublin because of the alkalinity of their water, etc.
Seriously? Also, in the rest of that post you are manipulating what exactly was said and in what context.
There shouldn't be any unpleasant off flavors due to ions.
Jim
Add a bunch of salt to your water next time and tell me ions don't impact flavor.
Do I really need to quote BYO again? You seem to be ignoring that article. My water is hard. I am waiting on specifics, but I bet it has a lot of calcium in it. Calcium in large amounts produces a metallic flavor. That is weird and unpleasant to me, and very noticeable in a light beer. Every light beer I have brewed has had the same off flavor in it.
Adding a bunch of salt isn't the issue. The issue is whether your water
as it stands is causing your light beers to taste funny. Obviously, if you
add a huge amount of any salt, much greater than is naturally found in
any tap water, you will have a funny flavor.
Do I need to quote your own and Bobby M's posts again? I guess I do.
Then Bobby M says:
So now he's telling you to make it even harder with sulfate, which
is the opposite of what you seem to want to do now. I was trying
to point out that your water is fine as is, it should be fine for most
beers unless you are trying to make a Samuel Smith Pale Ale clone,
and your taste problems are probably due to something else, like
too high a temperature for the fermentation, or too high a temp
for that particular yeast. I would try fermenting at 62 and see
what you get, if you are not already that low, or try changing the
yeast. Every yeast puts out different flavors, you have to
experiment to get the flavor you want. It took me a while to
figure out that Wyeast American ale isn't what I like, and that
Wyeast London III gave me the flavor I wanted in all my beers,
light or dark.
Jim
wildwest450
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Aren't you the same cat who was pointlessly arguing that dry yeast was garbage?
You are a troll, plain and simple. Bad troll!
You are a troll, plain and simple. Bad troll!
What conclusion I'm coming to is that I need to avoid any thread that you post in because your style of discourse makes me murder hookers.
Chemist or not, your reading comprehension is horrible.
My response about adding salts was in response to his attempt to build a water profile from RO base, NOT to his questionable tap water for which he did NOT post all the specifics.
Chemist or not, your reading comprehension is horrible.
My response about adding salts was in response to his attempt to build a water profile from RO base, NOT to his questionable tap water for which he did NOT post all the specifics.
The point is, add a lot of a certain ion and it will be very noticeable. I have a lot of calicum in my water, much more than the city of Pilsen, so it will be noticeable in a light beer.
You do realize that this post:
Is not my tap water profile. It was a water profile I came up with by adding ions to RO water.
My tap water report says this - I am waiting on a more detailed report:
Hardness levels of water leaving our water
treatment plants range from 110 (hard) to 326 parts per
million (very hard)
And therefore jdc cannot possibly know if your water is "fine" for light beer unless his position is indeed that any water can be fine for any beer. Of course, that notion is pure nonsense.
jdc2,
Have you brewed many light beers and dark beers using adjusted water and unadjusted water and blind taste-tested them? Your arguments, so far, have been agreeable to zero brewers who have posted on this thread because they have all experienced the difference first hand – not because they have chemistry degrees. Do yourself a favor and perform some experiments. It should be more educational for you than arguing.
Have you brewed many light beers and dark beers using adjusted water and unadjusted water and blind taste-tested them? Your arguments, so far, have been agreeable to zero brewers who have posted on this thread because they have all experienced the difference first hand – not because they have chemistry degrees. Do yourself a favor and perform some experiments. It should be more educational for you than arguing.
TheWhaleShark
Well-Known Member
@jdc2: If your water contains an excess of a particular ion, it will certainly lead to off-flavors and other ill effects. Too high of a sulfate content? That will lead to excessive bitterness and astringency. Too much chloride? It'll taste like bleach.
The real issue with water chemistry relates back to mash pH (for the most part). Water with a greater residual alkalinity has a higher pH than other water. Lighter roasted grains do less to acidify the mash than darker roasted grains. So, if you have very alkaline water and you try to make a light beer, your mash pH will be too high. That will inhibit enzyme activity, because the enzymes will begin to denature once they're outside of their optimal pH range.
Likewise, if you have very soft water which is low in bicarbonate (and hence has a low alkalinity), and you attempt to brew a dark beer, your dark grains will acidify the mash too much, and again you will have a poor conversion.
You need more alkalinity to balance the acidity from dark grains. You need less alkalinity with lighter grains in order to ensure that your mixture is not too alkaline.
Does that clear it up for you?
The real issue with water chemistry relates back to mash pH (for the most part). Water with a greater residual alkalinity has a higher pH than other water. Lighter roasted grains do less to acidify the mash than darker roasted grains. So, if you have very alkaline water and you try to make a light beer, your mash pH will be too high. That will inhibit enzyme activity, because the enzymes will begin to denature once they're outside of their optimal pH range.
Likewise, if you have very soft water which is low in bicarbonate (and hence has a low alkalinity), and you attempt to brew a dark beer, your dark grains will acidify the mash too much, and again you will have a poor conversion.
You need more alkalinity to balance the acidity from dark grains. You need less alkalinity with lighter grains in order to ensure that your mixture is not too alkaline.
Does that clear it up for you?
Grinder12000
Well-Known Member
It's like his other threads where he just disagrees with others, not really listening to anybody.
OH - I see wildwest450 has it correct - a troll. I called it - 1st in on page 2 LOL
OH - I see wildwest450 has it correct - a troll. I called it - 1st in on page 2 LOL
As I"ve already said at least twice, I've brewed my own light and dark beers
with and without salts, but just tasted them, not blind tasted. The beers
with added sulfate have a harsher kind of bitterness, exactly what the books
say. My pale ale with added sulfates tasted similar to Samuel Smiths's Pale
Ale, at least in the character of the bitterness. I could make the same
kind of remark you just made: Have you ever brewed the same light beer at
different temperatures and with different yeasts to see if that is what
is causing a problem? I wonder why light lagers are fermented at 44-50
degrees? Why is it that Ashton Lewis says in his homebrew book that he
ferments all his ales at 64? Why do breweries invest so much in jacketed
fermenters which can control the temperature to within a tenth of a degree?
Is it possible that higher temperatures lead to off flavors? Gosh I dunno.....
Why is it that some stout breweries can get away with fermenting
at 75? Is it possible the dark malts hide or blend well with the flavors
produced by the yeast at that temperature? Gosh, I dunno.....
Jim
Grinder12000
Well-Known Member
Come on guys - let's lock this thread down - it's anal.
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
Yeah, agreed. Like a friend of mine once said, about ******** who don't really want to have a conversation and just want attention, "don't feed the freaks".
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
no way, i find it hilarious
original topic:
" How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?"
OP's last post:
"massive whining about fermentation temperature or something."
is jdc trying to steer people away from his obvious self-contradiction? gosh, i donno...
original topic:
" How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?"
OP's last post:
"massive whining about fermentation temperature or something."
is jdc trying to steer people away from his obvious self-contradiction? gosh, i donno...
I think it needs to be said that the only "off" flavor your going to get from incorrect ions is astringency if you mash pH is to high. All else will be flavor profile on your palate. Something that will take an okay beer to outstanding... but certainly never off.
Yeast do NOT uptake Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl etc and produce a wide array of byproducts that would otherwise not be there. Someone said that. It is false.
I think jdc2 has a point though. I have judged far too many beers to believe that most homebrewers have a handle on the basic things. I would be willing to bet a much larger percentage on this site do, but in the general population, that is not the case. Fermentation temperature and pitching rate are usually the two things that jump out, and before you get those under control, forget about the damn water, you need to get that temp down first! If astringency is you problem only then would I suggest looking into water pH AFTER we look at your sparge technique.
This is of course moot if you do really know what you are doing, but like I said, a good portion of homebrewers do not.
Ever had an estery pilsner? How about a butter bomb stout?
Come to find out later that the pils was fermented with ale yeast. I mean come on wtf are you doing calling that a pils and then entering it?
Yeast do NOT uptake Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl etc and produce a wide array of byproducts that would otherwise not be there. Someone said that. It is false.
I think jdc2 has a point though. I have judged far too many beers to believe that most homebrewers have a handle on the basic things. I would be willing to bet a much larger percentage on this site do, but in the general population, that is not the case. Fermentation temperature and pitching rate are usually the two things that jump out, and before you get those under control, forget about the damn water, you need to get that temp down first! If astringency is you problem only then would I suggest looking into water pH AFTER we look at your sparge technique.
This is of course moot if you do really know what you are doing, but like I said, a good portion of homebrewers do not.
Ever had an estery pilsner? How about a butter bomb stout?
Come to find out later that the pils was fermented with ale yeast. I mean come on wtf are you doing calling that a pils and then entering it?
Rushis
Well-Known Member
But still fun.... 
Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...
Being an educated individual you should be aware of the mechanism by which hypochlorite results in microbial destruction. As it is pertinent to your above statements, I'ld like to point out some relevant reactions:
1) 2HOCl -> 2HCl + O2
2) HCl + HOCl <-> Cl2 + H2O
Both of these reactions contribute to the microbicidal activity of household bleach: 1) singlet oxygen is a powerful oxidant that will disrupt lipid bilayers and oxidize surface proteins and 2) chlorine can freely diffuse the cell membrane, allowing it to chlorinate proteins within the cell.
Balanced reaction from #1 and #2: 3HOCl -> HCl + O2 + Cl2 + H2O
Solubility of chlorine gas: aprox. 7g Cl2/1 L H2O
Reccomended sanitizing concentration of sodium hypochlorite: 1%
Calculate the theoretical yield of Cl2
Assumption: pH <= 5.4 for 99+% formation of HOCl
Solutuion prepared with distilled water
(10 g NaOCl per 1 L H2O) / (77.44 g NaOCl per mole) = 0.129 M NaOCl
0.129M NaOCl @ pH = 5.4 -> 0.129 M concentration of HOCl
1 mole Cl2 / 3 moles HOCl * 0.129 M HOCl = 0.043 M Cl2
0.043 M Cl2 * 70.096 g Cl2 per mole = 3.01 g Cl2 / 1 L H2O
Translation: No chlorine gas will evolved at proper sanitizing concentrations under strongly acidic pH conditions. Or, in other words, the brewer lives.
Done properly the pH of the hypochlorite solution can be safely adjusted to 7.4 in distilled water to maximize the generation of chlorine and singlet oxygen thereby improving the sanitizing capabilities of the solution. Commercial bleach solutions have a pH = aprox. 12. If your tap water is sufficiently buffered to maintain a pH = 7.4-8.4 after making a 1% bleach solution, there is no reason to add additional acid. However, if the sanitizing solution has a pH > 8.4, reducing the alkalinity of the solution with a dilute weak acid (acetic acid, i.e. vinegar) can improve the effectiveness.
Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...
I didn't start with degree dropping, I began with some common-sense
advice concerning off-flavors in light beers. Then Uncle Fester removed
my posts on the Brew Science forum saying
which from my point of view was a joke.
AHAHAHAHAAAA!!! And you think some of these guys are going to
monitor pH and do it "properly"? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
But you don't need to improve the effectiveness.
http://chemistry.about.com/b/2009/02/02/why-people-mix-bleach-and-vinegar.htm
3 grams of chlorine is about 1 liter of Cl2 gas, if you want to trust that it
will all stay in solution at room temperature, and nobody uses hot steaming
water with it, be my guest. I would trust a trained chemist in a hood to work with it, but not a homebrewer. I know that's not going to stop anyone here.
Jim
jdc, you continuously underestimate other brewers in a condescending manner. Your stance seemed to suggest that brewers are too dumb to understand water chemistry, so they should blame their own incompetence for off flavors. Now you claim that brewers are not capable of properly lowering the pH of a bleach solution. When confronted, you simply retort with, "I have a degree, therefore your assertion is idiotic."
I find your manner and tone absolutely deplorable.
I find your manner and tone absolutely deplorable.
"Uncle Fester" (that's twice you've called me that- while I have called you no names or been disrespectful to you, in case you haven't noticed) removed the post from the science forum because of the trolling nature of the thread, the condescending manner, and the lack of credible data backing up your claims that the topics are myths.
I don't appreciate the Uncle Fester comments, but I will say that you are the first person to ever call me that.
You are rude, argumentative, and wrong in some of your statements. Your answer when being told of other data is "I know everything, so I'm not going to listen".
If you are happy with the quality of your beer because of your vast knowledge, that's wonderful. My beer is ok as well. Of course, by your direction, it's probably not because I have a knowledge of proper brewing techniques and water chemisty. It's because I don't use dry yeast or ferment at 80 degrees.
You can certainly have your opinions, but when you are wrong you will be challenged. That's all this is. People don't swallow your every word, so you must employ namecalling. That's not the way to win people over. Let's see the science.
Let's see the science behind your claims on low SRM beers and water chemistry. Let's see the science behind your claims on dry yeast having 30 hour lag times. Without the data to back you up, you're just a big wind bag.
annasdadhockey
Well-Known Member
You do realize that the uncle fester you are talking about is actually a woman, right? A Well known and beloved woman here on this forum. I guess multiple degrees don't teach you that.
Carry on.
Rushis
Well-Known Member
Measure pH? Why? what's the pKa of acetic acid? 4.5, maybe?
Given the reactions will pH = 4.5 lead to a different result than 5.4?
Still safe.
About.com isn't my defacto source for reliable information. Didn't you trust your knowledge of chemistry?
I am pleased to see that about.com corroborated the information I've provided and err'd on the sign of caution for the masses. A good example of responsible scientific blogging.
Steaming hot water, sure, let's take what most people set their hot water heater to, 140F (60C.)
Solubility of Chlorine vs. Temperature
Over 3g (nice work on the ideal gas law, btw) of chlorine is soluble at 60C. Still safe.
The chemistry works...
wildwest450
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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Our mods have the patience of Job. I would have dropped the hammer on this turd long ago. Anyone who continually baits this guy is a fool, let it be people.
Yea either a troll, an idiot, or both. He keeps avoiding my posts proving him wrong, and starts rambling on about yeast and bleach. By the way, my room is a steady 64-65. No more, no less. I have a thermometer in here on 24/7. I now always pitch more than enough yeast (according to Mr Malty).
Two degree's? Congrats! :rockin:
Every good discussion starts with a little degree dropping...
Being an educated individual you should be aware of the mechanism by which hypochlorite results in microbial destruction. As it is pertinent to your above statements, I'ld like to point out some relevant reactions:
1) 2HOCl -> 2HCl + O2
2) HCl + HOCl <-> Cl2 + H2O
Both of these reactions contribute to the microbicidal activity of household bleach: 1) singlet oxygen is a powerful oxidant that will disrupt lipid bilayers and oxidize surface proteins and 2) chlorine can freely diffuse the cell membrane, allowing it to chlorinate proteins within the cell.
Balanced reaction from #1 and #2: 3HOCl -> HCl + O2 + Cl2 + H2O
Solubility of chlorine gas: aprox. 7g Cl2/1 L H2O
Reccomended sanitizing concentration of sodium hypochlorite: 1%
Calculate the theoretical yield of Cl2
Assumption: pH <= 5.4 for 99+% formation of HOCl
Solutuion prepared with distilled water
(10 g NaOCl per 1 L H2O) / (77.44 g NaOCl per mole) = 0.129 M NaOCl
0.129M NaOCl @ pH = 5.4 -> 0.129 M concentration of HOCl
1 mole Cl2 / 3 moles HOCl * 0.129 M HOCl = 0.043 M Cl2
0.043 M Cl2 * 70.096 g Cl2 per mole = 3.01 g Cl2 / 1 L H2O
Translation: No chlorine gas will evolved at proper sanitizing concentrations under strongly acidic pH conditions. Or, in other words, the brewer lives.
Done properly the pH of the hypochlorite solution can be safely adjusted to 7.4 in distilled water to maximize the generation of chlorine and singlet oxygen thereby improving the sanitizing capabilities of the solution. Commercial bleach solutions have a pH = aprox. 12. If your tap water is sufficiently buffered to maintain a pH = 7.4-8.4 after making a 1% bleach solution, there is no reason to add additional acid. However, if the sanitizing solution has a pH > 8.4, reducing the alkalinity of the solution with a dilute weak acid (acetic acid, i.e. vinegar) can improve the effectiveness.
IDK yoop, might have to move this thread back now. There's now more science in this thread than the entire first page in the Brew Science forum.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
jdc2, I can't help but notice that your profile lists you as "single".
Hmm.
Hmm.
Sorry you feel that way, but if you read my posts in sequence
you might have different view. And I never said that, or anything
even close to it, which is why I make any negative comments at
all. This place is filled with people who can't read and who insist
on distorting what's being said in a very negative way.
In any case, temporary hardness is good but not necessary
for mashing all grain dark beers, permanent hardness doesn't have
anything to do with off flavors in either light or dark beers.
Smart people would learn from that and move on, idiots will
complain about the "tone" in which it was said, or pass notes
about sneaking out for a smoke after the boring chemistry class.
Jim
Edcculus
Well-Known Member
I like to trust John Palmer.
Just wanted to throw in that I'm not sure I've ever seen this "myth" before. I don't claim to have any science degrees, but what I've read Palmers book is how high RA water is better for dark beers. The acidity of roasted grain will offset the RA bringing it into the proper mash pH. High RA in a all pils mash will yeild an improper mash pH and will extract tannins or polyphenols. I can see how someone might confuse RA, or another water term for hardness. As far as people claiming off flavors from bad water, I've never really seen that either. I like Jamil's explanation best. You might get a 30-40 point beer with no water modification. Water modification is what will push you up into the mid to high 40's. Especially for light lagers and darker beers.
Just wanted to throw in that I'm not sure I've ever seen this "myth" before. I don't claim to have any science degrees, but what I've read Palmers book is how high RA water is better for dark beers. The acidity of roasted grain will offset the RA bringing it into the proper mash pH. High RA in a all pils mash will yeild an improper mash pH and will extract tannins or polyphenols. I can see how someone might confuse RA, or another water term for hardness. As far as people claiming off flavors from bad water, I've never really seen that either. I like Jamil's explanation best. You might get a 30-40 point beer with no water modification. Water modification is what will push you up into the mid to high 40's. Especially for light lagers and darker beers.
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
Wow -- I just can't believe you made these two statements so deliberately. Not only are offending the entire community here by demeaning us, but at the same time, you make ridiculously false statements and tell us that we are idiots if we don't believe you. Please educate yourself on the basics of brewing and come back with an open mind.
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
passing notes to sneak out for a smoke? i doubt this guy's ever been to a college class.
two degrees in chem, and an about.com quote! I love it!
excuse me, but I have to get back to submitting specs, using various wikipedia articles as sources.
two degrees in chem, and an about.com quote! I love it!
excuse me, but I have to get back to submitting specs, using various wikipedia articles as sources.
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