First batch using a 'family recipe' from the ages - Wondering if I have problems

[PacificPressed]

Hi everyone,

First post and first time on the site, so firstly hello!

I grew up in the UK, and now live on the west coast of CA and have been struggling to find what I'd say is a 'good' cider. Of course, I thought to myself 'I could do better' like every first time home brewer has ever thought.

I spent a lot of time researching, and also had an old English family recipe that was suggested to me as a way to make the first batch. I could have gone wrong by using variations of what I'd seen on this forum, from people who have brewed before and, of course, even the best prepared batches can go wrong, but wanted to ask the group for some feedback on if I have ruined my first batch. I have brewed beer many years ago, with some success, but I know cider is a whole different game.

My set up / initial process and readings are below -

1 US Gal batch
Combination of Fuji, Gala, Pink Lady and Granny Smith (closest to the English recipe I had). Most of the weighting was on the Gala and Pink Lady (About 70% between them)
Pressed using a proper press mill, all sanitized down prior
Apple's cut, cored, mashed then pressed
Initial GR - 1040
Initial temperature - 68F
PH level - 3.8 (had to add some precipitated chalk to adjust up)
Added pectolate
Pitched yeast (EC1118 Lalvin)
Light shake / aggitate
Sealed / bubble tube added (with some sanitized water in the bubble tube) and all equipment sanitized prior to use also

First few days it was fermenting nicely, had the foam, was seeing a bubble go from every 10 seconds, to every 5 seconds, to every 2-3 seconds (by day 5/6). bottle temp was in the 68F area, the room temp between 64 and 69F.

Then it stalled at that. I know bubbles aren't a true indicator of fermentation so I took a reading, was around 1020 GR, so I let it carry on and got to day 11 and the bubbles were only every 20-30 seconds. Bottle temp a little higher 69F, room temp 67/68F. I then (maybe stupidly?) added yeast nutrient thinking it had stalled fermentation, prior to re-checking the GR. I left it 24 hours, was not bubbling at all so I took a GR and it came out at 1000 - This is now day 13. Today I was advised to move it to secondary (I have added some Potassium Sorbate to the primary first) and also aerated it prior to racking it, but whilst racking it, the smell is quite awful. It's like the rotten egg type smell people suggest, but also kinda chemically (did I over sterilize at times, could that have caused it?) The cider itself doesn't taste like the smell (I took a risky small sip, why not).

Did putting the nutrient in at a stage too late (fermentation mostly complete) ruin it? Or have I just had a bad batch of 'cider sickness' with the apples, should I have boiled the juice first? (I've heard it can damage certain flavors).

I am now in my secondary ferment, the cider itself is a little cloudy but nothing untoward. I've attached a photo. I also know I have a lot of airspace at the top, but during the first transfer over I a) split some despite having the right equipment and b) didn't want to get too far to the sediment out from on the bottom of the primary carboy).

I had read elsewhere to leave it in secondary for several weeks and that 'may cure the smell' but any guidance or help would be great of people who had this experience early days, or have had it regularly! I'm not against throwing it out and starting again as I fully understand I am going to go through a ton of batches before I get to a level I think is 'half decent', but if I can save it, would love to learn how.

Thanks again

 

[Chalkyt]

Firstly, welcome to the fun.

Hmm, to give you some comfort, I can't see anything outrageously wrong with the initial approach, so hang on in there. Here is my take on the situation.

Your blend is very similar to a very popular commercial cider from Tasmania (Australia's "apple island" state). Their blend is 70% Royal Gala, Fuji and Pink Lady with 30% un-named traditional cider apples, so I suspect that your base would be quite good.

The time frame also seems to be O.K. Day 11 for the initial turbulent fermentation to settle and be down to 1.020 also seems fairly normal, especially if you are using EC1118 which is quite robust and aggressive.

I understand that the smell you are describing is indicative of stressed yeasts (I have never had the problem), but the added nutrient should have taken care of that. The current "wisdom" that I follow is to add nutrient (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) after primary fermentation as all apples should inherently have enough YAN for the yeast to get fermentation down to the 1.010 - 1.020 range before stalling.

I guess that only leaves quantities. How much yeast did you add? A teaspoon of yeast (5g) and less than 10% of this for nutrient should be more than enough for a gallon. The potassium sorbate may have interfered with the yeast population and caused some stress (and hence "off" smells), but I don't use it or know much about the effects, so others might be able to advise you on this. I stop fermentation if needed by heat pasteurising.

The amount of headspace in your secondary container is a bit of a worry and should be reduced to avoid oxidisation, even by simply adding some more juice, but I don't think it has any relationship to the smell.

In my experience, cider is pretty good at fixing itself given enough time and there doesn't seem to be much wrong with your approach except I wouldn't boil the juice (a pH of 3.8 or below, alcohol and an initial 50ppm of sulphite should take care of any nasties). Others may have different views.

Good luck!

 

[PacificPressed]

Hi! Thank you for taking the time to reply and give me some comfort

Good point on the yeast; I used 1g of the E1118 which was per the guidelines of E1118 on only 1 gallon. The smell itself was there before I added in the potassium sorbate, and tbh I used it as I'd read up in several places I should add it between primary and secondary.

Noted on boiling the juice. I didn't do it this time, but I'd read a few articles that said you should (but I also agree on not really needing too). Will see if the nutrient hopefully helps reduce the smell.

Thanks again, really appreciate it!

 

[CKuhns]

"Did putting the nutrient in at a stage too late (fermentation mostly complete) ruin it? Or have I just had a bad batch of 'cider sickness' with the apples, should I have boiled the juice first? (I've heard it can damage certain flavors)."

Too much nutrient can cause some chemical like flavors. If the yeast were / are not able to take advantage of it. I would not add it late in the ferment. Depending upon how much you added could be part of the problem.

As @Chalkyt mentioned. It sounds like your yeast got stressed and produced some off flavors and smell. The good news is it tends to age out.

 

[PacificPressed]

"Did putting the nutrient in at a stage too late (fermentation mostly complete) ruin it? Or have I just had a bad batch of 'cider sickness' with the apples, should I have boiled the juice first? (I've heard it can damage certain flavors)."

Too much nutrient can cause some chemical like flavors. If the yeast were / are not able to take advantage of it. I would not add it late in the ferment. Depending upon how much you added could be part of the problem.

As @Chalkyt mentioned. It sounds like your yeast got stressed and produced some off flavors and smell. The good news is it tends to age out.

Thanks again for the comfort. The smell in the room where it's kept has definitely subsided a little. Keeping it in the secondary for some time now anyway, so hopefully it weens off!

 

[Raptor99]

I don't see any yeast nutrient in your original recipe. Apples don't have enough nutrients for yeast, so you should add some at the beginning or in stages. After fermentation is nearly finished, adding more nutrient won't help because the yeast can't absorb it once the ABV gets high enough and the yeast no longer need it.

Stressed yeast can produce H2S (rotten egg smell). Unlike some other flaws, no amount of aging will remove that. But you can remove most of it by splash racking it back and forth 3-4 times, along with adding some Kmeta to prevent oxidation.

If you leave H2S in your cider for too long, it converts into a different form (mercaptans) that is very difficult to remove. But in your case there is still time to remedy this. I would add Kmeta powder or campden tablets and rack 3-4 times. Then wait a few days, and smell and taste again to see if the problem is solved. If necessary, repeat.

As was mentioned above, once initial fermentation is finished, it is important to have your cider in a carboy under airlock with very little headspace. The photo you posted has too much headspace, which will lead to oxidation over time.

 

[Chalkyt]

The finger seems to be pointing at stressed yeast contributing to your problem as the potassium sorbate may have initially prevented growth of the yeast population. The use of nutrients also seems to be an issue, so it is probably worth going a bit “off-topic” to touch on when and why to use them.

Among other nutrient compounds, yeasts need YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) in order to grow and progress to complete fermentation of the juice. As mentioned before, most juice will have sufficient YAN for a normal fermentation. Late maturing apples from old, unfertilised trees can fall short of YAN, (as can “store bought” juice kept in extended storage) leading to a stalled fermentation where the yeasts simply stop working or growing due to a lack of nutrients.

Research shows that about 50ppm (1/4 gram!) of DAP will provide enough YAN to ferment 0.010 SG drop. So, many cidermakers (me included) add a small “insurance amount” of DAP, which is 21% YAN (or newer products such as Fermaid) early in the process to ensure enough nutrient for yeasts to grow and completely ferment juice without being under stress.

I have certainly experienced stalled fermentations with apples from my orchard (it suffers from the “triple whammy” of late maturing, old, unfertilised trees). The fermentations have been restarted with a pinch of DAP at the right time.

I hope this helps with your next batch.

 

[PacificPressed]

I don't see any yeast nutrient in your original recipe. Apples don't have enough nutrients for yeast, so you should add some at the beginning or in stages. After fermentation is nearly finished, adding more nutrient won't help because the yeast can't absorb it once the ABV gets high enough and the yeast no longer need it.

Stressed yeast can produce H2S (rotten egg smell). Unlike some other flaws, no amount of aging will remove that. But you can remove most of it by splash racking it back and forth 3-4 times, along with adding some Kmeta to prevent oxidation.

If you leave H2S in your cider for too long, it converts into a different form (mercaptans) that is very difficult to remove. But in your case there is still time to remedy this. I would add Kmeta powder or campden tablets and rack 3-4 times. Then wait a few days, and smell and taste again to see if the problem is solved. If necessary, repeat.

As was mentioned above, once initial fermentation is finished, it is important to have your cider in a carboy under airlock with very little headspace. The photo you posted has too much headspace, which will lead to oxidation over time.

Thank you! With the Kmeta, I didn't add a camped tablet at the start. Should I be adding some Kmeta at the start of fermentation, as well as when going into the secondary? Or is adding the Kmeta here as you suggest just because I have this issue?

Will splash rack it today, and see how it turns out. The smell has subsided quite a bit, but want it gone completely

As for the level of headspace I have, is just adding apple juice OK? Assume that will slightly impact the ABV but I am not bothered on all of that right now, being my first batch.

 

[Chalkyt]

Adding fresh juice to fill the headspace will be fine as long as it doesn't contain preservatives that will kill yeast. It looks as though you need about a litre to top it up. Using some "rough arithmetic", you will get one of two outcomes.

If your cider still has viable yeasts, they will simply ferment the new juice to about the same ABV as your already fermented cider (a bit over 5%), i.e. no real change. Perhaps a pinch of new yeast and nutrient would be worthwhile.

If for whatever reason your yeasts have all died out (unlikely), then assuming that the top-up juice has a SG of around 1.050, you will be adding about 100g/L of sugar from the new juice, and as you suggest slightly diluting the ABV. You indicate that the cider SG is 1.000 (i.e. fully fermented) so with the top-up you will now have around 20g/L of sugar in the gallon and the overall SG will raise to 1.010. This is about the same as a teaspoon of sugar in a cup of coffee, i.e. a pleasant touch of sweetness in a still cider.

I will often "back-sweeten" fully fermented cider with new juice to raise the SG to 1.010, bottle and let it re-ferment for up to two weeks. I monitor bottle pressure (either by bottling some in a soda bottle and doing the "squeeze test", or in a bottle fitted with a pressure gauge), until carbonation has reached about 2 - 2.5 volumes (SG 1.006 or 10g/L sugar plus another 0.5% ABV). Then, pasteurise in a hot water bath at 65C for 10 minutes to kill the yeast and stop any further fermentation. The end result is a slightly-sweet, carbonated cider.

Treat your current issues as a great chance to find out all sorts of new stuff about cider!

Cheers!

 

[PacificPressed]

Firstly thank you to everyone for their comments, and for going easy on me! I've generally avoided forums before (I am in a few car forums) and the feedback can often be very negative. What a great community here!

I've splash racked it a few times, and added in some Kmeta and will leave it a day or two and check again. The smell is definitely not what it was which is comforting. I can always splash rack it again in a few days as per a comment above. I also added in a bit of apple juice per the above.

When doing that, and the SG increases (above suggested it would go to say 1010) what does that do for the final ABV? anything, or just purely a sweetness thing? Always learning!

 

[Chalkyt]

Here is a long-winded answer to your question about what does adding a bit of apple juice do to the ABV.

Basically, the ABV is derived from yeast converting sugar into alcohol and CO2. The CO2 goes off into the atmosphere leaving water, flavour compounds and alcohol behind, i.e. cider. So, here is the "short course" on different ways of calculating ABV. I hope it doesn't sound too much like a college lecture!

To determine the effect of adding juice or sugar to your cider, you need to know that most of the added sugar will be fermented into alcohol and CO2.

There are two common "rules of thumb" or formulas for estimating ABV. Both are based on the difference between the original specific gravity (OG) and the final gravity (FG) after fermentation, which really is just a measure of how much sugar has been fermented.

Using fully fermented 1.050 juice as an example, one formula is (OG-FG) x 130 = ABV%, e.g. (1.050-1.000) x 130 = 6.5%. Different sources give the multiplier as anything between 125 and 130, but for estimating purposes the difference isn't significant since amateur craft cidermakers we are usually looking for an accuracy of about 0.5% ABV.

The other formula is Gravity point change/8 = ABV%, e.g. (1.050-1.000) = 50 gravity points/8 = 6.25%

An alternative to these formulae is to determine how much sugar is added, then estimate how much of this is converted to alcohol. This can be useful if you chaptalize (i.e. add sugar to increase the potential ABV of your cider).

The next bit is a bit convoluted, but understanding the composition of apple juice is the key to answering your question. The amount of solid in a juice, (i.e sugar and other non-fermentables like acids, tannins etc) determines the SG. So, conversely the SG can be used to estimate the amount of solids and hence sugar in the juice.

In general terms, the solids comprise around 82% sugar and 18% non-fermentables, although this will vary a little bit between juices. In practice there are many SG tables that give values for sugar at different SGs. But be aware that some tables list total solids rather than just sugar. As a rough rule, if suitable tables aren't available, gravity points x 2.1 = sugar grams per litre. For example, SG 1.050 juice might have 130 grams of solids of which 105 grams are sugar. So, 50 gravity points x 2.1 =105 grams of sugar

Therefore, if you know how much alcohol is produced from the sugar and the volume of the resulting cider, ABV is simply total alcohol divided by total cider.

The process for determining this is as follows. Be aware that the arithmetic involves averages and approximations, so don't get too hung up on "the sanctity of numbers", we are just after a reasonable measure of ABV. Fermentation converts sugar into roughly 47% CO2, 48% alcohol and 5% "new" flavour compounds. A litre (say, 1000g) of fully fermented SG 1.050 juice will start with about 105g of sugar and end up being about 901g of water and flavour compounds plus 50g of alcohol because the 49g of Co2 (i.e. 47% of the 105g of sugar) "goes away into the air".

When converting mass to volume there is a minor effect on volume due to volumic contraction (i.e. the effect of mixing dissimilar liquids like water and alcohol), but practically this can be ignored and the numbers rounded off. So, a simple conversion the 901 grams of water and flavour compounds is near enough to 900ml. However, because the density of alcohol is 0.79 g/ml, the volume of 50g of alcohol is 50/0.79 = 63ml. The ABV therefore is 63/(900+63) = 6.5%.

So, the methods will give a slightly different answer but are close enough to the accepted 6.5% ABV for fully fermented SG1.050 juice.

 

[PacificPressed]

Here is a long-winded answer to your question about what does adding a bit of apple juice do to the ABV.

Basically, the ABV is derived from yeast converting sugar into alcohol and CO2. The CO2 goes off into the atmosphere leaving water, flavour compounds and alcohol behind, i.e. cider. So, here is the "short course" on different ways of calculating ABV. I hope it doesn't sound too much like a college lecture!

To determine the effect of adding juice or sugar to your cider, you need to know that most of the added sugar will be fermented into alcohol and CO2.

There are two common "rules of thumb" or formulas for estimating ABV. Both are based on the difference between the original specific gravity (OG) and the final gravity (FG) after fermentation, which really is just a measure of how much sugar has been fermented.

Using fully fermented 1.050 juice as an example, one formula is (OG-FG) x 130 = ABV%, e.g. (1.050-1.000) x 130 = 6.5%. Different sources give the multiplier as anything between 125 and 130, but for estimating purposes the difference isn't significant since amateur craft cidermakers we are usually looking for an accuracy of about 0.5% ABV.

The other formula is Gravity point change/8 = ABV%, e.g. (1.050-1.000) = 50 gravity points/8 = 6.25%

An alternative to these formulae is to determine how much sugar is added, then estimate how much of this is converted to alcohol. This can be useful if you chaptalize (i.e. add sugar to increase the potential ABV of your cider).

The next bit is a bit convoluted, but understanding the composition of apple juice is the key to answering your question. The amount of solid in a juice, (i.e sugar and other non-fermentables like acids, tannins etc) determines the SG. So, conversely the SG can be used to estimate the amount of solids and hence sugar in the juice.

In general terms, the solids comprise around 82% sugar and 18% non-fermentables, although this will vary a little bit between juices. In practice there are many SG tables that give values for sugar at different SGs. But be aware that some tables list total solids rather than just sugar. As a rough rule, if suitable tables aren't available, gravity points x 2.1 = sugar grams per litre. For example, SG 1.050 juice might have 130 grams of solids of which 105 grams are sugar. So, 50 gravity points x 2.1 =105 grams of sugar

Therefore, if you know how much alcohol is produced from the sugar and the volume of the resulting cider, ABV is simply total alcohol divided by total cider.

The process for determining this is as follows. Be aware that the arithmetic involves averages and approximations, so don't get too hung up on "the sanctity of numbers", we are just after a reasonable measure of ABV. Fermentation converts sugar into roughly 47% CO2, 48% alcohol and 5% "new" flavour compounds. A litre (say, 1000g) of fully fermented SG 1.050 juice will start with about 105g of sugar and end up being about 901g of water and flavour compounds plus 50g of alcohol because the 49g of Co2 (i.e. 47% of the 105g of sugar) "goes away into the air".

When converting mass to volume there is a minor effect on volume due to volumic contraction (i.e. the effect of mixing dissimilar liquids like water and alcohol), but practically this can be ignored and the numbers rounded off. So, a simple conversion the 901 grams of water and flavour compounds is near enough to 900ml. However, because the density of alcohol is 0.79 g/ml, the volume of 50g of alcohol is 50/0.79 = 63ml. The ABV therefore is 63/(900+63) = 6.5%.

So, the methods will give a slightly different answer but are close enough to the accepted 6.5% ABV for fully fermented SG1.050 juice.

Very very helpful! And I appreciate the detail there, very kind

 

[Raptor99]

Another approach is to measure the SG, add your apple juice, then measure the SG again. That will let you calculate the change in SG of the entire mixture due to adding the apple juice. From that you can calculate what the OG would have been if you had added the extra apple juice at the beginning.

For example, if your OG was 1.040 and the current SG is 1.000, then after you add the apple juice it is 1.010. The increase in SG is 0.010, so your new effective OG would be 1.050. You can estimate the ABV by the usual methods by comparing your new modified OG with the FG after fermentation is finished.

 

[JAReeves]

I don't know if you are solely doing ciders, but I will often ferment a cider on the yeast cake from a Pale Ale. The leftover beer doesn't add too much to the flavor, and the yeasties are really happy. The dead ones are food for the live, so no nutrients needed.

If that doesn't work for you, save the yeast from the bottom of your ferment in a cleaned, sanitized jar; maybe 8-12oz max. Some people will try to separate out by strata layer, but I just pitch the whole mess-again, the dead yeast are nutrient for the live. Usually you can get maybe 5 generations before something starts to taste off (either an infection, or the yeast have mutated beyond the origin too far), but YMMV.