Help w/ Extract Recipe

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

Hello all,

I'm cleaning out what I have left of homebrewing materials, I've had a run of bad batches and I have one final one I want to do... But it's going to be a weird one. I'm going to use this as my litmus whether I want to keep going or not.

I have a "Brewer's Best Irish Stout" kit that has been hanging around for a bit. I never get what I believe to be a good "Brewhouse efficiency" out of these kits, they usually specify an OG decently above what I end up with. I also have some DME laying around and I intend on using it to boost the alcohol and body, because I find Irish Stouts to be pretty thin and much prefer Imperial Russian style, or similar.

So here's what I have laying around: WEIRD ITEMS
- 6lbs lactose
- a bag of cacao nibs (thinking maybe I'll try to make a chocolate milk stout out of this?)
- 6lbs of CBW Golden Light DME

I'm hoping to augment the above kit, which comes with:
- 3.3 lbs dark LME
- 2.0 lbs dark DME
- 0.5 lbs maltodextrin
- 12oz Cara Munich Dark
- 4oz Black Barley
- 4oz Chocolate Wheat
- 1oz Columbus and 1oz Wilamette hops

Any suggestions for process modifications, when I can add cacao nibs, or if I can use some/all of the weird items to make something somewhat decent? My struggle with adding DME is not knowing what to expect for OG impact and FG impact when used alongside these kits, and I've forgotton most of what I remember about making beer since I had a celiac diagnosis a year ago that I've since decided to ignore.

This is a "closet cleanout" so I'm hoping to use what I can here. Thank you!!

 

[camonick]

kits, they usually specify an OG decently above what I end up with.

If you’re ending up with the same batch size the kit is designed for, the estimated OG of extract kits is pretty much spot on.

 

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

If you’re ending up with the same batch size the kit is designed for, the estimated OG of extract kits is pretty much spot on.

It isn't.

 

[Rish]

It isn't.

If it's not (I do a lot of extract kits and always they are very close) then you probably have a process issue: more water than called for or not stirring the wort well so you have stratification and get a bad hydrometer reading (I think this is fairly common for newer brewers).
If you haven't, you should check your hydrometer to make sure it's correct.
Brew house efficiency isn't really an issue with extract brewing.
You can look up your dme at the manufacturer's website and they'll most likely have the ppg listed so you'll know how it affects your abv.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Brew house efficiency isn't really an issue with extract brewing.

Brewhouse efficiency is just as much an issue with extract as it is with all-grain. Extract isn't affected by mash efficiency (nor by definition, conversion or lauter efficiencies).

A quart gets left in the kettle upon transfer to fermenter? That's a hit to brewhouse efficiency.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I never get what I believe to be a good "Brewhouse efficiency" out of these kits, they usually specify an OG decently above what I end up with.

That's not a question of brewhouse efficiency. Brewhouse efficiency is how much extract (gravity points, not DME or LME) makes its way to the fermenter. A measure of how much wort is lost between the kettle and fermenter.

 

[camonick]

It isn't.

It has to be. A specific amount of extract in a specific amount of water will yield a consistent SG. If not, you have inaccurate measuring equipment (hydrometer/refractometer), incorrect water volumes or stratification of the sugars in your wort.

 

[DBhomebrew]

And if your volume isn't the same as the kit says, you can easily adjust your expectations for OG.

Kit says 5.5G @ 1.050
You have 6G.

5.5*50=6*x
275/6=x
46=x

6G @ 1.046

 

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

The extract kit suggests a range, I measure exactly 5 gallons going in. I usually end up with roughly 4.5-4.8 gallons on the way out due to boiloff. I stir by pouring it back and forth between buckets for oxygen.

My interpretation of a range is low to high, and when I'm lower than the low, that tells me it is an out-of-range, and therefore not on target. I'd assume they do the math for the median and then account for variance in technique, process quality in the production of the extract, etc.

But thanks for the recipe ideas for the lactose, light DME, and cacao nibs, and for simply assuming it's my first brew and that I'm making dumb mistakes.

 

[camonick]

I’m sorry if you feel as though you’ve been attacked, I was merely addressing a comment in your original post about not getting the same numbers as suggested in the kit instructions.

they usually specify an OG decently above what I end up with.

If your volume is lower than the kit’s suggested volume of 5 gallons, your OG should actually be higher than the predicted number.

I usually end up with roughly 4.5-4.8 gallons on the way out due to boiloff.

You say you’ve had a string of bad batches, but don’t explain what those failures were.

I've had a run of bad batches and I have one final one I want to do..

In my opinion, if you’re struggling with inferior results, adding a bunch of extra variables to the process may not be the best way to troubleshoot.

I'm going to use this as my litmus whether I want to keep going or not.

If this doesn’t turn out either, is it because of the new additions or an existing problem? We won’t know.

Regarding using your extra ingredients…
Adding one pound of DME to five gallons will add 9 gravity points. You’ll have to decide how “strong” you want your stout to be. Typical milk stouts have OGs upwards of 1.070.
Half to one pound of lactose added at the end of the boil is typical of style depending on how sweet you want it to be.
I won’t advise on the cocao nibs as I’ve never had good luck with them.
Adding extra fermentables and lactose without adjusting the hop schedule will likely make an unbalanced and cloyingly sweet beer.

 

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

Thanks for coming back with info here. I realize having less volume should translate to higher OG, that's why it makes no sense.

The bad batches-- well, the most recent one had a Brett infection due to a crack in the lid. All of my fermenters have seemed to have grown mold, and I've just never been impressed on my homebrew over others -- like, I've had family say it's great, but I just think it's whatever.

What issues with the cocoa nibs? It'll be my first try

 

[camonick]

What issues with the cocoa nibs? It'll be my first try

I just never get good flavor from them… maybe I’m not using them correctly. I’ve moved to a high quality chocolate extract for flavoring.

 

[Rish]

Brewhouse efficiency is just as much an issue with extract as it is with all-grain. Extract isn't affected by mash efficiency (nor by definition, conversion or lauter efficiencies).

A quart gets left in the kettle upon transfer to fermenter? That's a hit to brewhouse efficiency.

You are of course correct and I wasn't very clear... I was referring to OP's concern about sg.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for coming back with info here. I realize having less volume should translate to higher OG, that's why it makes no sense.

At the end of the wort transfer to the fermenter, are you topping it up with water to get your intended final volume? If that's not mixed thoroughly that could cause stratification, reading low gravity at the top, while the bottom gravity is higher.

How much wort do you leave behind in your kettle?

BTW, extract brews do not need full volume boils. 150-170F is plenty hot to quickly dissolve the extracts.

Are you using a recipe formulator, such as Brewer's Friend (it's free).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

extract brews do not need full volume boils.

How to Brew, 4e covers the various combinations of DME/LME additions and water additions.

tl;dr?: full volume boils are necessary for some styles, and partial boils (with late additions of DME/LME) work well for the other styles.

 

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

I've been doing full volume boils simply due to the fact that I have a kettle that supports it, but I have had to do half boils before and similar results. I really don't leave much of anything behind, I figure it'll all settle out once it's in the fermenter. I generally brew, use a wort chiller, and then dump it into the fermenter, top up, go between the bottling bucket and the fermenter a few times to get oxygen in it and then measure and adjust for temp

 

[DBhomebrew]

I've been doing full volume boils

I generally brew, use a wort chiller, and then dump it into the fermenter, top up,

If you're doing full volume boils, why the top up? Is that volume accounted for in the OG prediction? Are you losing much more volume during the boil then the kit expects?

 

[IVeladRiENtArtHeMaNaRMiTh]

I start right at 5 gallons, when they specify the yield, they say it's 5 gallons, so I assume that's normal losses during boil. I can't say for sure how much volume I'm losing, I'm sure not much -- and still I wouldn't expect the sugar sources to evaporate, just the water, but tell me if I'm off on that because I'd love to understand where I'm doing it wrong

 

[DBhomebrew]

Water inputs seem ok to me.

I can't seem to find it above... By how much are you missing the OG?

 

[camonick]

I start right at 5 gallons, when they specify the yield, they say it's 5 gallons, so I assume that's normal losses during boil. I can't say for sure how much volume I'm losing, I'm sure not much -- and still I wouldn't expect the sugar sources to evaporate, just the water, but tell me if I'm off on that because I'd love to understand where I'm doing it wrong

For my equipment to yield 5 gallons into the keg, I have to start with around 7 gallons at the start of the boil. That accounts for my boil-off, loss in the boil kettle (hop absorption, etc) and trub losses in the fermenter. Everyone’s system is a little different but you’ll see similar figures often and it doesn’t matter whether it’s all grain or extract.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Everyone’s system is a little different

Or a lot!

 

[DBhomebrew]

If you really are leaving near-zero volume in the kettle, it doesn't really matter all that much if you start with 5 or 10 gallons pre-boil as long as you top up to the proper fermenter volume. Which you seem to do.

 

[camonick]

Or a lot!

That’s for a full volume boil using the parameters in Beersmith and it’s almost always pretty close to right. I don’t think that these figures are all that uncommon.

 

[DBhomebrew]

We can easily agree that everyone's system and process are different. My pre-boil is 4.6, VIF 4.1ish. Roughly 3.8 into bottles. Extract or all-grain.

 

[camonick]

We can easily agree that everyone's system and process are different. My pre-boil is 4.6, VIF 4.1ish. Roughly 3.8 into bottles. Extract or all-grain.

True, but that’s comparing apples and oranges when we’re discussing a full volume boil for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[DBhomebrew]

We're both talking full-volume boils. I'm looking at percentage of pre-boil volume lost to process between pre-boil and package.

(7-5)/7= 28.6% of pre-boil volume loss
(4.6-3.8)/4.6= 17.4% of pre-boil volume loss

 

[DBhomebrew]

Please note that I'm not arguing whether your or my process is better or whatever. Just that the range of normal might be larger than typically assumed.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Taking a far reach here...

Brewers' Best LME comes in jugs or canisters? How are you emptying them? Warming the LME to get it to run easier? Adding some warm water and shaking it up to get the last bits out? Are you getting all of it in the kettle or are you throwing some away with the 'empty' container?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The extract kit suggests a range, I measure exactly 5 gallons going in. I usually end up with roughly 4.5-4.8 gallons on the way out due to boiloff. I stir by pouring it back and forth between buckets for oxygen.

A couple of observations

• LME contains water, so adding LME to 5 gal of water will result in a wort that is somewhat larger than 5 gal. IIRC, there is enough additional water to measure the differences in volume and and in OG.
• Water expands as it gets warmer. Volume measurements that use height need to be adjusted. IIRC, it's roughly 2% at 150F and 4% at 212F.

The estimated SG for the recipe in #1 looks reasonable. For an SG 48-ish wort in 5 gal, SG will change about 3 GPs per quart of water.

If SG is low at the end of the boil (after topping off to 5 gal), one would want to investigate missing ingredients, errors in estimated values in the recipe /1/, or equipment that may need to be re-calibrated.

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/1/ in some cases, this can go as deep as verifying that the data that the software uses is accurate for the product brand used in the original estimate and the product brand used on brew day.