WLP029: Slow starter or old vial?

[Immocles]

I used a vial of 029 earlier this summer for a kolsch. I do 2.5G batches, and never made a starter, just direct pitch the vial. I then reuse the slurry for a couple generations. When I purchased the original vial of 029, it was nearing its best by date, but I sort of still just winged (wung?) it with the direct pitch. It took about a day longer to get active fermentation than any other yeast I'd used. I figured it was the date. I've reused 2 slurries from that batch with success, but again, they were agonizingly (alarmingly?) slow. Am I asking for a stuck fermentation by reusing this particular vial? or is this simply how this particular yeast generally functions. Basically, What would you do? Keep the slurries, or chuck them?

 

[Jag75]

If you fermentation is slow with the harvest I'd toss it. Spend the 5-8$ and have peace of mind. I dont harvest , not sure if I will so I cant really say for sure , just my opinion.

 

[9Kegs]

My first time with WLP029 took over 2 days for lift off. Next time around I made a starter and it was going in half the time. I harvested and reused that yeast for 10 generations without a problem. Using my programmable temp controller, I start at 64 F and raise it a degree per day for a week and then hold at 72 F until packaging.

 

[Jag75]

Nice profile pic^^^^^ looking forward to El Camino !

 

[mongoose33]

I've done some Kolsch's and they start off slow. I did a direct pitch of 029 into the wort, no starter, took a little over a day to get going. About what I'd expect. It's not a fast starter in my experience, but once it gets going, not bad. I ferment mine at 60 degrees, which probably has something to do with how fast it gets going.

And yeah, no starter. Attended the BYO boot camp last march, attended a workshop put on by Chris White of White Labs. Yeah, that guy. He said unless he was doing a lager or a big beer, he'd just pitch the yeast, no starter. Well, you can imagine my head exploding when he said that. A couple people, when I mentioned this a while back, suggested he was just flogging his product, but I can't imagine he'd suggest that if it didn't work reasonably well.

So my son, who also brews, started doing that. No starter. He couldn't discern any difference in result. I brewed his Kolssch and decided to do that as well. Couldn't believe it. Fermented 029 at 60 degrees. I had that beer done and kegged in 10 days, force carbed it and brought it to my LHB club the next night--11 days after pitching. It was a hit, and nobody believed it was 11 days old AND I'd pitched that yeast without a starter.

Your slow takeoffs are consistent with my experience, but what you haven't told us is what temp you're fermenting at. Where are you with that? And how long is an "agonizingly slow" fermentation? With 029 I'd be at about 5 days after pitch and it's done. With Wyeast 2565, somewhat faster, but also no starter.

I don't think I'd be afraid to use your slurry a couple more times. Don't think I'd go more than maybe 5 generations with it.

 

[Jag75]

@mongoose33 - I've always wondered about starters. When you pitch yeast your dumping it a big vat of wort . So once that yeast starts to eat the sugar isnt it inevitable that it will ferment out ? I could see his point but what about a big beer? Maybe the starter is just a time saver on the fermentation period. I usually pitch and not even check my gravity until 3 weeks .

 

[Immocles]

Both the direct pitch and the slurry pitches took slightly over two days. I wasn’t surprised that the first pitch was slow, it being an older package, but generally when I pitch a slurry, it takes off sooner (hence my agonizingly slow comment). It seemed to take off around the same time each pitch, at 62F, 65F, and 67-68F.
I’m glad to hear it seems to be common, I’d hate to throw out good yeast. The only other kolschs I’d made were with 2565, and those took off rather quickly, but the temperature range of 029 is much more forgiving for me

 

[Jag75]

You ever had k97 for kolsch?

 

[Immocles]

Nope, I haven’t. My lhbs is more directed towards wine and has a very small selection of beer yeast, which is a big reason I harvest. I probably would have grabbed a packet of it instead of the 029 had it been there. The date was that close haha.

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33 - I've always wondered about starters. When you pitch yeast your dumping it a big vat of wort . So once that yeast starts to eat the sugar isnt it inevitable that it will ferment out ?

It likely will.....but it will not necessarily do so with the flavors you want. A gross overpitch or underpitch can result in off flavors, such as diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and low attenuation (this from the White and Zainesheff book).

For a long time, I've been favoring starters pitched at or close to high krausen, so as to get that yeast going ASAP. Why? To outcompete any bacteriological or wild yeast nasties that may have gotten into the wort. I've become a little more tolerant of waiting before pitching, or tolerating a slow ramp up, because my setup doesn't encourage contamination from insects or dust falling into the wort. Back before I had my new setup, especially during the summer, windborn dust and pollen, nosy insects, things like that could settle into the boil kettle before my immersion chiller got it cooled down. Now, counterlow chiller and I cover the kettle, so unlikely (but not impossible) to get an infection.

I could see his point but what about a big beer? Maybe the starter is just a time saver on the fermentation period. I usually pitch and not even check my gravity until 3 weeks .

Well, with a big beer you need more yeast to start. The name of the game is to get the yeast ina window where it will work well. There are formulae that estimate needed yeast based on the gravity, so you can get close.

The evidence is that most home brewers, pitching most yeast, end up in a window of yeast pitch rate that works fairly well. But be too low, or too high, and you'll end up creating flavors you do not want.