Looks great!Yeast bank check in. Label wont work, which i figured. Not sure about the yeast settling but I guess we'll find out.
Would Wyeast Beer Nutrient Blend be a good bet? States clearly it contains zinc--not all nutrients do. Ashton Lewis of BYO rants about this: https://byo.com/video/yeast-nutrients/ and https://byo.com/mr-wizard/using-yeast-nutrients/Yes, I put it in the wort before filling the mason jars prior to pressure cooking.
I just did a starter 3 days ago using 2 tubes with 2022 frozen Diamond Lager yeast and 1 qt of water with 100g of DMA. Today I brewed 6 gallons of Helles.I've been reading various methods of doing this including yours in preparation to do it myself, and noticed none of the methods seem to pay any special consideration to the starter preparation.
The starter always seems to be prepared like any other prior to pitching into beer, and your method is virtually the same as I use except I use homemade canned starter wort. I would think the starter should be prepared in a more aseptic manner, given it is to be stored long term and should remain relatively free of contamination.
Since this is for potentially long term storage of relatively pure yeast cultures, do you let the starter grow in any particular kind of environment? My concern is possible contamination of the starter, given it grows for about 48 hours in a container simply covered by a piece of foil, otherwise in the open air. Then it's put into the fridge to cold crash, where it's exposed to all of the air inside the fridge for an extended period of time as well.
I've considered pressure sterilizing the flask, and letting the starter grow in a laminar flow hood, but I can't think of a way to aseptically cold crash it.
Has anyone used any special techniques like this to grow a starter aseptically? Is this simply way more concern than is necessary?
I'm not an expert but that does not seem like enough time or pressure to make your wort sterile. i think you need to get to 15psi for 20 to 30mins.1 qt Ball's jars and use a canning pot for 10 minutes at 10 PSI.
No problems since I started in 2021.I'm not an expert but that does not seem like enough time or pressure to make your wort sterile. i think you need to get to 15psi for 20 to 30mins.
You are 4000 feet higher than me (Chicagoland)I did some digging about pressure canning wort, and posted some info here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...t-to-freeze-for-starters.734100/post-10408985
Bottom line is there is no definitive info out there. Hopefully some county or university food science program will someday do the heavy-lifting of research.
Since the post, I updated my process and now always use 15psi for 30min, using 1/2 inch head space. I don't use any container larger than 1 quart, and don't hold on to the product for more than 6 months.
As stated in my OP, I’ve had no issues following the procedure as I laid it out. I don’t use a pressure cooker. I boil my wort in a soup pot and some water in my flask for 10 minutes to sterilize it. Whether or not a 10 minute boil is completely sterilizing everything, I can’t say for certain. That said, all of the starters I have made from my frozen vials have worked just as well as pre-packaged yeast for me. I have been doing this for almost a year now and had no infections.I've been reading various methods of doing this including yours in preparation to do it myself, and noticed none of the methods seem to pay any special consideration to the starter preparation.
The starter always seems to be prepared like any other prior to pitching into beer, and your method is virtually the same as I use except I use homemade canned starter wort. I would think the starter should be prepared in a more aseptic manner, given it is to be stored long term and should remain relatively free of contamination.
Since this is for potentially long term storage of relatively pure yeast cultures, do you let the starter grow in any particular kind of environment? My concern is possible contamination of the starter, given it grows for about 48 hours in a container simply covered by a piece of foil, otherwise in the open air. Then it's put into the fridge to cold crash, where it's exposed to all of the air inside the fridge for an extended period of time as well.
I've considered pressure sterilizing the flask, and letting the starter grow in a laminar flow hood, but I can't think of a way to aseptically cold crash it.
Has anyone used any special techniques like this to grow a starter aseptically? Is this simply way more concern than is necessary?
That is fine although I would add the Fermax or Fermaid as well as it adds the FAN.Would Wyeast Beer Nutrient Blend be a good bet? States clearly it contains zinc--not all nutrients do. Ashton Lewis of BYO rants about this: https://byo.com/video/yeast-nutrients/ and https://byo.com/mr-wizard/using-yeast-nutrients/
Correct. Botulism toxin is denatured at around 185F, but botulism spores aren't denatured until at least 120C/248F. Sweet wort does not have a high enough acidity (low pH) to inhibit spores from producing new toxins or prevent bacterial growth, so the only safe way to can and store starter worts is by 1 BAR pressurized canning. It involves a submerged water bath where the temperature of the water and wort jar reaches and maintains 248~250F for :15 minutes, then air cooled until the sealing lid collapses inward forming an airtight vacuum seal. Any other canning method is not food safe and should be consumed within a week to 10 days if refrigerated. This includes any pressure canned wort whose jar lid fails to vacuum seal when cooled.I'm not an expert but that does not seem like enough time or pressure to make your wort sterile. i think you need to get to 15psi for 20 to 30mins.
" I don’t use a pressure cooker. I boil my wort in a soup pot and some water in my flask for 10 minutes to sterilize it. Whether or not a 10 minute boil is completely sterilizing everything, I can’t say for certain."As stated in my OP, I’ve had no issues following the procedure as I laid it out. I don’t use a pressure cooker. I boil my wort in a soup pot and some water in my flask for 10 minutes to sterilize it. Whether or not a 10 minute boil is completely sterilizing everything, I can’t say for certain. That said, all of the starters I have made from my frozen vials have worked just as well as pre-packaged yeast for me. I have been doing this for almost a year now and had no infections.
The time for a starter to finish depends on the yeast strain and some do take closer to 3 days. I have made a couple starters of lager yeast and I did a two step starter to make sure I got plenty of yeast. For those I made a 1L starter, let it do its work. Then cold crash for a couple days, decant and add 1.5L of boiled and cooled wort to the flask and finally let that work until ready to pitch. I dump the entire starter into my 5+ gal batch.
My experience with pressure canners is they use steam and pressure to get to the higher temps. You mentioned "It involves a submerged water bath". I believe pressure canners just use a few inches of water and the jars are not submerged.Correct. Botulism toxin is denatured at around 185F, but botulism spores aren't denatured until at least 120C/248F. Sweet wort does not have a high enough acidity (low pH) to inhibit spores from producing new toxins or prevent bacterial growth, so the only safe way to can and store starter worts is by 1 BAR pressurized canning. It involves a submerged water bath where the temperature of the water and wort jar reaches and maintains 248~250F for :15 minutes, then air cooled until the sealing lid collapses inward forming an airtight vacuum seal. Any other canning method is not food safe and should be consumed within a week to 10 days if refrigerated. This includes any pressure canned wort whose jar lid fails to vacuum seal when cooled.
Once prepared and properly sealed, the canned wort is shelf stable unrefrigerated. I've used such starter worts up to a year old successfully. I used to make two cases of quart Mason jars every year in late summer when we were canning other garden vegetables, so I was well acquainted with the process. These days I have more money than spare time, so I just load up on a case of Propper once or twice a year. Not cheap @ $4 per can, but I'm allowed to indulge myself at this age.
My pot's manual says to fill up with water 1in above the jar lids.My experience with pressure canners is they use steam and pressure to get to the higher temps. You mentioned "It involves a submerged water bath". I believe pressure canners just use a few inches of water and the jars are not submerged.
That is for water bath canning. Not pressure canning. Jars are fully submerged when you water bath can and the temperature only gets as high as the boiling water. Pressure canning uses a few inches of water in the pot and the jars sit on a rack above the water. Steam under pressure gives you the higher temperatures.My pot's manual says to fill up with water 1in above the jar lids.
I thought that if the pressure rises the boiling temperature of water goes up. Was I wrong?That is for water bath canning. Not pressure canning. Jars are fully submerged when you water bath can and the temperature only gets as high as the boiling water. Pressure canning uses a few inches of water in the pot and the jars sit on a rack above the water. Steam under pressure gives you the higher temperatures.
I thought that if the pressure rises the boiling temperature of water goes up. Was I wrong?
You are not wrong. What I’m saying is pressure canning doesn’t doesn’t require the jars to be submerged. Anyway all the pressure canning instructions I have read state to use a few inches of water. If there is a pressure canner instruction set that says to completely submerge the jars then I would stand corrected.I thought that if the pressure rises the boiling temperature of water goes up. Was I wrong?
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshe...er/States_of_Matter/Phase_Transitions/Boiling
It might be a bit of a safety thing. I got pressure cooking pots that basically say that the inside must be filled at least to a third with liquid to avoid running low on water during the time of heating. So physically, it does not mater if the can is under water or above, as long as there is the correct pressure maintained. But if the system runs out of water during that time, it might overheat and gets damaged that way.You are not wrong. What I’m saying is pressure canning doesn’t doesn’t require the jars to be submerged. Anyway all the pressure canning instructions I have read state to use a few inches of water. If there is a pressure canner instruction set that says to completely submerge the jars then I would stand corrected.
Definitely would not want the water level too low when pressure cooking so you don’t ruin the food.It might be a bit of a safety thing. I got pressure cooking pots that basically say that the inside must be filled at least to a third with liquid to avoid running low on water during the time of heating. So physically, it does not mater if the can is under water or above, as long as there is the correct pressure maintained. But if the system runs out of water during that time, it might overheat and gets damaged that way.
I think the problem is a different definition of the two types of canning. Water bath canning is usually done under atmospheric pressure, if i am correct. Pressure canning is done under pressure. If the seal can take the water bath without being unfluenced negatively, it does not matter wether or not the can is submerged or not.As long there is a boiling water, the steam and the pressure, the boiling temperature rises. So does the steam temperature around the jar and what is inside the jar. What is the problem?
Do you have a pressure gauge on the outside of your pot? Unless it reads 250F or 15 PSI you are not getting to the safe levels for low acid food storage.As long there is a boiling water, the steam and the pressure, the boiling temperature rises. So does the steam temperature around the jar and what is inside the jar. What is the problem?
Right on both counts (mostly). The jars are not completely submerged as they are in unpressurized canning. I usually would fill the cooker up to the neck of the jar, not covering the threads nor the metal ring and cap.My experience with pressure canners is they use steam and pressure to get to the higher temps. You mentioned "It involves a submerged water bath". I believe pressure canners just use a few inches of water and the jars are not submerged.
One can determine the exact temperature, but only with knowledge of the pressure in the canner. The actual pressure inside a canner is the current atmospheric pressure plus the measured pressure (usually by a gauge, or by spitballing with the cooker weight). The temperature can then be determined by the Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT), or easier, by using a lookup table. This is also why knowing your altitude is important when using the p-canner. Here is a nice writeup on all this: https://www.seriouseats.com/how-pressure-cookers-work. Also: https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/pressure-cookers-versus-pressure-canners. It's all a rather deep rabbit hole to go down, but a very interesting and informative one.Right on both counts (mostly). The jars are not completely submerged as they are in unpressurized canning. I usually would fill the cooker up to the neck of the jar, not covering the threads nor the metal ring and cap.
The pressure inside the cooker builds when heated while also suppressing the boiling point of the water surrounding the jars. At 1BAR that temperature is approximately 120C/250F. Steam may or may not form when that temperature is reached, however steam condensate forms readily as pressure is released at the PRV.
Exactly, though my measurements aren't totally precise. My pressure canner has a series of free weights that can be mounted singularly or in combination, to form a known mass. The weights mount on top of a precise diameter vent. When pressure inside the vessel exceeds the pressure required to unseat the weight, the steam vents from underneath the mass. The only variables are the mass of the weight, the purity of the water in the bath, and the height of the vessel above sea level, in my case approximately 714' MSL.One can determine the exact temperature, but only with knowledge of the pressure in the canner. The actual pressure inside a canner is the current atmospheric pressure plus the measured pressure (usually by a gauge, or by spitballing with the cooker weight). The temperature can then be determined by the Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT), or easier, by using a lookup table. This is also why knowing your altitude is important when using the p-canner. Here is a nice writeup on all this: https://www.seriouseats.com/how-pressure-cookers-work. Also: https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/pressure-cookers-versus-pressure-canners. It's all a rather deep rabbit hole to go down, but a very interesting and informative one.
Finally, to add to Broothru's comments: don't rely on water bath canning, and don't mess with pathogens like C. botulinum.
Yeast bank check in. Label wont work, which i figured. Not sure about the yeast settling but I guess we'll find out.
Packing tape (clear) placed over the label. Works best when applied to a dry, room temperature jar, vial, tube, etc. Never had one fall off doing this.You could try using gelatin as your adhesive. It stays on even when wet, you need very hot water to dissolve it and remove the labels.
I went with https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08XYP43JC thermal printed, labels don't run. The program to print let's you do a QR code, so I tend to to the strain, some basic info, the date, and then a QR to the manufacturer's site/yeast info.You could try using gelatin as your adhesive. It stays on even when wet, you need very hot water to dissolve it and remove the labels.
David, here are some good resources on headspace:...How much head space do you all leave in the canning jars when preparing pressure canned starter wort?
Any threads on this subject? My search pretty much just sent me back to this thread.
I saw your other thread. Thank you!David, here are some good resources on headspace:
https://www.healthycanning.com/the-role-of-headspace-in-home-canning/
https://www.clemson.edu/extension/food/canning/canning-tips/09headspace.html
https://extension.psu.edu/why-allow-headspace-when-canning-and-freezing-food
I use one inch, because several sites recommend it for broths and other liquids. The wort should not expand much, but I've had wort siphon out during processing at 1/2 inch.
Remember, the USDA or other sites do not have an approved procedure for pressure canning wort (I published an email response from the Nat Center for Home Food Preparation, U of Georgia, elsewhere; they don't even recommend pressure canning it!) We're on our own on this one, boys and girls...
You're welcome, David.I saw your other thread. Thank you!
Do you do a concentrated wort too? I think I'll do regular strength and not dilute with non-sterile water.