When a ton of hops gives no aroma

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rafaelpinto

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Fellow homebrewers,

I am here to report a big problem on the pursuit of hoppiness. I have been trying to reach the top bar of hop aroma and flavor. For that, all most effective techniques were used with no optimal result.

First Wort Hopping, Late Hopping, Hop Stand and Dry Hopping - nothing really works. Even if I double dry hop with 4oz of Citra for 5 days and another 4oz of Mandarina for other 5 days. Even if hop standed with 6oz of hops at 165-170ºF...

So, what could be the cause? Why I cant achieve that strong, fresh hop aroma and flavor? Could that be oxidation? Could it be a yeast thing? Could it be water? Along with that, brews has come darker and bitter than planned.

Anyone experiencing the same stuff?

______________________________________________________________
Edit for more info:
- Water: low in everything (bellow 1ppm); pH around 4,75 and 5.2 (have tried 2 types of bottled water)
- Yeast:US-05, S-04
- Fermentation temperature always as low as possible (60-64ºF)
- I have tried adding hops after fermentation is done (12 days), on primary without racking. I have tried adding hops after fermentation is done on secondary and a second dry hopping with a second racking also.
- I only bottle​
 
rafaelpinto said:
Fellow homebrewers,

I am here to report a big problem on the pursuit of hoppiness. I have been trying to reach the top bar of hop aroma and flavor. For that, all most effective techniques were used with no optimal result.

First Wort Hopping, Late Hopping, Hop Stand and Dry Hopping - nothing really works. Even if I double dry hop with 4oz of Citra for 5 days and another 4oz of Mandarina for other 5 days. Even if hop standed with 6oz of hops at 165-170ºF...

So, what could be the cause? Why I cant achieve that strong, fresh hop aroma and flavor? Could that be oxidation? Could it be a yeast thing? Could it be water? Along with that, brews has come darker and bitter than planned.

Anyone experiencing the same stuff?
Click to expand...

Provide more information. Water profile? Yeast strain? Fermentation temp? Number of racking steps, how you carbonate? Any of these things can affect "hoppiness." The forum will be able to help you more if you provide these details.
 
I too was Unsatisfied with my IPAs until I discovered keg hopping. Keeps your beer clear, crisp, fresh and hoppy. If you have the equipment it's the easiest way to achieve what you're looking for.
 
I too had a problem with low hop aroma until I started doing hop stands. Now I do a 77C hop stand for hop flavor (20-40min) and a 66C hop stand for aroma (20-40min), usually with 4-12 grams of hops per liter and I will never go back. I do this for all styles.

From your description your hop stand seems too hot, try doing it at 66 celsius for aroma.

I whirlpool, of course.
 
sandyeggoxj said:
I bet it is a water issue. Do you have soft water or low minerals in your brewing water?
Click to expand...

You are right, my water is very low on minerals. This is all the info I have:

pH at 25ºC: 4,75

Magnesium - 0,058 ppm
Potassium - 0,315 ppm
Sodium - 0,525 ppm
Nitrate - 0,10 ppm
Sulfate - 0,03 ppm
Chloride - 0,11 ppm
Bicarbonate - 2,8 ppm​

(sorry for possible translation problems)
 
rafaelpinto said:
You are right, my water is very low on minerals. This is all the info I have:

pH at 25ºC: 4,75

Magnesium - 0,058 ppm
Potassium - 0,315 ppm
Sodium - 0,525 ppm
Nitrate - 0,10 ppm
Sulfate - 0,03 ppm
Chloride - 0,11 ppm
Bicarbonate - 2,8 ppm​

(sorry for possible translation problems)
Click to expand...

Looks like great water for brewing!

Do you check mash pH at all? That's important. You'll want a mash pH of around 5.4 at room temperature.

How long do you dryhop for? I find the best and freshest hops flavor and aroma comes with 3-5 days of dryhopping right before packaging the beer.

Do you age your beers at all? Hop flavor and aroma fades quickly, so if the beers are aging, they are losing a lot of hops flavor and aroma also.
 
Yooper said:
Looks like great water for brewing!

Do you check mash pH at all? That's important. You'll want a mash pH of around 5.4 at room temperature.

How long do you dryhop for? I find the best and freshest hops flavor and aroma comes with 3-5 days of dryhopping right before packaging the beer.

Do you age your beers at all? Hop flavor and aroma fades quickly, so if the beers are aging, they are losing a lot of hops flavor and aroma also.
Click to expand...

Great water, really? Ive just bought calcium chloride and calcium sulfate... I also bought pH stripes (I will verify pH at every step next time I brew). Dry hop for 5-7 days, never less and never more. Oh, and I always start drinking after 4-5 days of bottled.
 
How long do you bottle condition after bottling? Do you chill your bottles right after bottling? What is the carbonation level of the beer five days after bottling?
 
flars said:
How long do you bottle condition after bottling? Do you chill your bottles right after bottling? What is the carbonation level of the beer five days after bottling?
Click to expand...

I start drinking 5 days after bottled (only time to carb up). No chilling - otherwise there will be no carbonation. Carbonation level is fine after 5 days (maybe too much, but I like it).
 
rafaelpinto said:
I start drinking 5 days after bottled (only time to carb up). No chilling - otherwise there will be no carbonation. Carbonation level is fine after 5 days (maybe too much, but I like it).
Click to expand...

Try an experiment. Condition 6 bottles at room temperature for two weeks. Each three days gently invert the bottles to keep the yeast suspended. At the end of two weeks chill the bottles for four days. At the end of four days remove the bottles from the frig and let warm to your favorite drinking temperature. The CO2 in solution may bring out the hop aromas and flavors you are trying for.
 
flars said:
Try an experiment. Condition 6 bottles at room temperature for two weeks. Each three days gently invert the bottles to keep the yeast suspended. At the end of two weeks chill the bottles for four days. At the end of four days remove the bottles from the frig and let warm to your favorite drinking temperature. The CO2 in solution may bring out the hop aromas and flavors you are trying for.
Click to expand...

Nice! I will try that.
 
Hi Rafael,
Go ahead and try the method Flars has suggested, i think that you will notice a difference when they have had at least 14days to bottle condition.

One other thing you can do is increase the sulphate contents of the water by using Gypsum ( Calcium Sulphate ) by adding about 10g to a 5 gallon batch during the boil, this will make those hops sing like the heavens. ( you can add this to the boil kettle while the transfer from the mash tun in happening )

If your dry hopping with with 6oz of Citra and getting no aroma something is wrong.......I dry hop with 1oz of citra and you the aroma from that is obvious.
 
Pratty said:
One other thing you can do is increase the sulphate contents of the water by using Gypsum
Click to expand...

I have bought some gypsum, but what I have been reading is that all calcium sulfate will do is related to bitterness, not aroma or flavor.
 
Tricks that have worked for me:
Buy hops else where or make sure they smell great when you open the bag. Next I dry hop at 70*f in the secondary only, no yeast cake and little to no ferment left. When I add the hops in I also blanket the top of the beer with a good amount of CO2.
24 hrs into dry hop I shoot CO2 again but this time from the bottom of the fermenter to agitate the hops and protect the aroma. After 5 days I rack and keg into CO2 purged keg and make sure the beer has never seen oxygen. Lastly early in the process I also use gypsum to get the right sulfate/chloride ratio. But thats more for flavor then aroma.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
rafaelpinto said:
I have bought some gypsum, but what I have been reading is that all calcium sulfate will do is related to bitterness, not aroma or flavor.
Click to expand...

I have found that the overall hop character improved right through when adding gypsum, before that i didnt have an issue with bitterness from a 90 or 60min addition but struggled to get the flavour and solid aroma until i used Gypsum.

Try it out and see if that moves you closer to your target.
 
Pratty said:
I have found that the overall hop character improved right through when adding gypsum, before that i didnt have an issue with bitterness from a 90 or 60min addition but struggled to get the flavour and solid aroma until i used Gypsum.

Try it out and see if that moves you closer to your target.
Click to expand...

Really? So it does help with flavor and aroma!? Thats something good to hear. Will adding it directly to the finished beer be of any help?
 
I don't mean to discourage you, but I bottled seven IPAs in search of the same aroma as you and never really got it. I started kegging and that all changed. Then I started keg hopping and became a god. Buy a corny and 5lbs tank. Buy once cry once.
 
You need to start kegging and using c02. I cant think of any really great commercial IPAs that bottle condition can you?
 
hopstupid said:
You need to start kegging and using c02. I cant think of any really great commercial IPAs that bottle condition can you?
Click to expand...


I can think of one fairly good IPA that used to bottle condition (although they no longer do) - Pliny the Elder. Up until 3 or 4 years ago, they were definitely bottle conditioned.

Also, Bell's Two Hearted is bottle conditioned - but is that an IPA or just a really solid APA?

Regardless, I agree - oxygen and hops do NOT mix well. I bottle condition (trying to save my pennies to buy a kegging set up). But I go to great lengths to purge all my bottling equipment with CO2 (I actually use dry ice - at $1/lb you can purge a lot if volume with just a few dollars). And my beers are much better than they were before I started that practice.
 
PlinyTheMiddleAged said:
(I actually use dry ice - at $1/lb you can purge a lot if volume with just a few dollars). And my beers are much better than they were before I started that practice.
Click to expand...

Wow, dry ice is a great idea! Is there any sanitation issues related to it? It can be used to take o2 out of the headspace on fermentation buckets also!

Using it in the bottles would be actually a kind of forced carbonation, right? Do you have to use less priming solution in order to achieve the intended carbonation?

Dude, you are a genius :D
 
I was a bit concerned initially with the sanitation aspect; however, I have not run in to any issues.

I use dry ice to purge head space after dry hopping - float a sanitized plastic container in the primary (I don't use a secondary) with a good handful of dry ice in it. I also use it to purge my bottling bucket and wand - throw a handful of dry ice in, slap the lid on, and vent through the airlock hole; towards the end just slip the end of the bottling wand and hose through the airlock outlet to purge the oxygen out of the wand.

Prior to bottling, I'll drop pieces into the bottles to purge them. After the CO2 sublimates, I fill with beer and drop a small piece into the now filled bottle. Let that new bit of dry ice sublimate and then cap to bottle condition.

I will say that I did try to force carb just for fun - as expected, it failed miserably. I figured I needed about 2.2 grams for a 22 oz bottle for about 2.5 volumes. I dropped about half of that in a bottle and immediately capped it. Then I boxed it and put it off in the corner of the garage while I bottled the remaining beer. A few minutes later, I heard the seal on the cap fail - no bottle bomb, but I'd guess it was close. The problem is that you're trying to force all of the CO2 into solution pretty much all at the same time. As folks who force carb can tell you, it takes time for that to happen.

By the way, I use small pieces - not the big blocks you usually see. They're like pieces of a broken rod of dry ice. They're little cylindrical dry ice cubes.

Works for me!
 
PlinyTheMiddleAged said:
Works for me!
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for all the info. I will test it for sure! By the way, Ive found those dry ice pieces you refer to here in my city. They call it pellets (just like the hops).

Dry ice will be tested soon on my hoppy saison. Hope to feed you back with results soon.
 
rafaelpinto said:
Really? So it does help with flavor and aroma!? Thats something good to hear. Will adding it directly to the finished beer be of any help?
Click to expand...

adding it to the finished beer...hmmm not sure that will help, its normally a mash/sparge/boil addition, start planning for the next one to add the salts.
 
rafaelpinto said:
Really? So it does help with flavor and aroma!? Thats something good to hear. Will adding it directly to the finished beer be of any help?
Click to expand...


You can add gypsum after brewing. It'll affect the perception of bitterness/hoppiness but not aroma. I think that once aroma is gone, you can't bring it back.

Mix up a solution of gypsum and water and then dose your brewed and carbed beer with it. Figure out how much gypsum you like. Personally, I like a LOT. Others like less; others more.

The most I've seen folks try to shoot for is 350 ppm of SO4. I usually target 300 ppm but am considering dialing that back to 250. I get a little bit of a minerally bite at 300 and I'm thinking it'll get better if I scale back a little.

All that bring said, up the gypsum and bring the hops to the forefront! Use Bru'N Water as your guide - I'm a big fan!!!
 
rafaelpinto,

I will say that the biggest improvement I've seen in my hoppy beers occurred after I started being ultra protective about oxygen exposure during bottling. I used to be careful, but careful wasn't good enough. Here's what I do:

1) Cover the mouths of the bottles with a square of tin foil and dry heat sterilize. Allow the bottles to cool back to room temperature overnight in the oven. Keep the foil in place.

2) On bottling day, lift the foil, drop a piece of dry ice into each bottle, and replace the foil. Let the ice sublimate.

3) Repeat step 2 and add carbonation drops (a pre measured dose of bottling sugar).

4) After the dry ice used in #3 sublimates, fill the bottles from the CO2 purged bottling bucket (see my previous comment on this).

5) After filling a bottle, drop a very small piece of dry ice into the bottle. The ice will sink and cause the beer to foam. If the ice is too big, the foam will make a bit of a mess.

6) Cap and bottle condition as usual.

Doing the above made huge improvements to my IPAs but it is kind of tedious (but so is bottling). Looking forward to kegging some day.
 
PlinyTheMiddleAged said:
rafaelpinto,

I will say that the biggest improvement I've seen in my hoppy beers occurred after I started being ultra protective about oxygen exposure during bottling. I used to be careful, but careful wasn't good enough. Here's what I do:

1) Cover the mouths of the bottles with a square of tin foil and dry heat sterilize. Allow the bottles to cool back to room temperature overnight in the oven. Keep the foil in place.

2) On bottling day, lift the foil, drop a piece of dry ice into each bottle, and replace the foil. Let the ice sublimate.

3) Repeat step 2 and add carbonation drops (a pre measured dose of bottling sugar).

4) After the dry ice used in #3 sublimates, fill the bottles from the CO2 purged bottling bucket (see my previous comment on this).

5) After filling a bottle, drop a very small piece of dry ice into the bottle. The ice will sink and cause the beer to foam. If the ice is too big, the foam will make a bit of a mess.

6) Cap and bottle condition as usual.

Doing the above made huge improvements to my IPAs but it is kind of tedious (but so is bottling). Looking forward to kegging some day.
Click to expand...

Great info, thank you very much.
 
PlinyTheMiddleAged said:
rafaelpinto,

I will say that the biggest improvement I've seen in my hoppy beers occurred after I started being ultra protective about oxygen exposure during bottling. I used to be careful, but careful wasn't good enough. Here's what I do:

1) Cover the mouths of the bottles with a square of tin foil and dry heat sterilize. Allow the bottles to cool back to room temperature overnight in the oven. Keep the foil in place.

2) On bottling day, lift the foil, drop a piece of dry ice into each bottle, and replace the foil. Let the ice sublimate.

3) Repeat step 2 and add carbonation drops (a pre measured dose of bottling sugar).

4) After the dry ice used in #3 sublimates, fill the bottles from the CO2 purged bottling bucket (see my previous comment on this).

5) After filling a bottle, drop a very small piece of dry ice into the bottle. The ice will sink and cause the beer to foam. If the ice is too big, the foam will make a bit of a mess.

6) Cap and bottle condition as usual.

Doing the above made huge improvements to my IPAs but it is kind of tedious (but so is bottling). Looking forward to kegging some day.
Click to expand...

Any way you could post pictures of this process?
 
Next time I bottle, I'll try to remember to snap some pictures. It'll be a few weeks. I'm brewing this weekend, so maybe two to three weeks until I bottle again. Maybe I should start a separate thread so this thread can stand on it's own for the OP.

Edit: changed "...until I brew again." to "...until I bottle again."
 
divrguy said:
Sounds like you are making stuff up as you type!
Click to expand...


Who? Me?

Not me! I make stuff up long before typing!

Sorry for the confusing post (if that's what you are referring to) - edited to fix. I'm just having a rough go of it this evening. I wish I could blame the homebrew, but this is all on me.
 

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