What's the story on pickling lime?

[briggssteel]

I intended to use it on my brown today but chickened out after reading how toxic it is. Of course my mash ph was around 4.9 so I paid for it.

I read how you need to wear goggles and gloves or it could cause blindness or respiratory problems if airborne and was a wimp about putting it in my beer. Any advice on it if it really is something toxic I'd be messing with or if people are overblowing it? Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

I intended to use it on my brown today but chickened out after reading how toxic it is. Of course my mash ph was around 4.9 so I paid for it.

I read how you need to wear goggles and gloves or it could cause blindness or respiratory problems if airborne and was a wimp about putting it in my beer. Any advice on it if it really is something toxic I'd be messing with or if people are overblowing it? Thanks.

It's hard to believe that your mash pH was 4.9- did you check your pH meter to make sure it was calibrated properly? Unless you added a ton of acid to RO water, it seems like that couldn't happen.

I use pickling lime for a couple of things- once is to precipitate out bicarbonate but I don't do it any longer since I got an RO machine. The other use that I commonly use it for- is pickles.

Little old ladies use it for pickling, so it's not that toxic.

 

[mabrungard]

Lime is NOT toxic, but it is hazardous. It is calcium and hydroxide. Its the hydroxide that drives pH high and can damage skin and sensitive membranes like eyes. As long as the wind isn't blowing, there isn't really a big concern with handling lime. You don't even need to worry about the dry lime getting on your skin for short periods of time. Just be sure to wash it completely off within a few minutes. As Lorena mentions, little old ladies use it for canning and pickling.

Your 4.9 result is common if you started with a low alkalinity water like RO or distilled. I've seen pH's that low when I was testing for Bru'n Water.

You can still add the lime to the beer to help it avoid an overly low pH, but you have already damaged the mash with the low pH and that might make your beer a little thinner than you intended. But it should still be drinkable.

Live and learn.

 

[ajdelange]

I intended to use it on my brown today but chickened out after reading how toxic it is. Of course my mash ph was around 4.9 so I paid for it.

You must have measured that with strips or an meter that was out of cal. You have to work pretty hard to get pH 4.9 from some base malt and a bit of colored.

I read how you need to wear goggles and gloves or it could cause blindness or respiratory problems if airborne and was a wimp about putting it in my beer. Any advice on it if it really is something toxic I'd be messing with or if people are overblowing it? Thanks.

The 'pickling' in the name does not refer to pickling steel or anything harsh like that it refers to the pickles we make from cucumbers. We live in very litigious times. There are hungry lawyers out there who, if they thought they could win a case based on the claim that excessive exposure to pickling lime caused you to become sexually promiscuous, they would file it (this actually happened in San Francisco but the causative agent was a cable car, not pickling lime). It's a food grade product, it was in your mom's kitchen. How dangerous can it be? In an industrial setting where you are exposed at or above the PEL there can be a problem but to weigh out a couple of grams you don't need a face shield, respirator and rubber apron to handle it. Look up the MSDS for 'hydrated lime'. Don't eat a lot of it (the acid in your stomach would neutralize quite a bit), don't breathe the dust beyond the PEL and don't get it in your eyes.

 

[mabrungard]

You must have measured that with strips or an meter that was out of cal. You have to work pretty hard to get pH 4.9 from some base malt and a bit of colored.

With a bit of colored malt, it would be difficult to get to 4.9. However with a good dose of darker crystal malts, it is pretty easy to get there. Briggs, I believe you and have produced that result myself.

 

[MaxStout]

Calcium Hydroxide is only mildly caustic, but it can irritate the skin. You certainly don't want it in your eyes. But it is mild compared to say, Sodium Hydroxide (lye).

When baked at a high enough temp, Calcium Hydroxide breaks down, losing the H2O component of its molecule, and becomes Calcium Oxide (quick lime). This is caustic stuff, but you won't encounter it in your use of pickling lime.

 

[briggssteel]

Ouch on the little old lady comment. Haha. Good to know it's not that dangerous though so I'll probably use it next time I do a darker beer.

I used the Colorphast PH strips at room temperature. The 4.9 was a guesstimate but the color was definitely closer to 5.0 than 4.7 on the chart. I kept it in the wort sample for probably 15 minutes.

The recipe was as follows:

4.3 gallons of water with 12.25 lbs of grain. Mash ratio of 1.4 qts per pound. I also added a teaspoon of calcium chloride (3.4 grams) and a half teaspoon of gypsum (2 grams)

9 lbs Marris Otter
8 oz Crystal 80
8 oz Special Roast
8 oz Victory
8 oz Brown Malt
8 oz Carapils
4 oz Pale Chocolate

That's roughly 27% specialty grains which I know is pretty high. I cut back 8oz between the brown and pale chocolate malt hoping it would help my mash ph but no such luck.

 

[ajdelange]

OK, that makes sense. Modeling the Maris Otter as having a DI mash pH of 5.62 and everything else except the Carapils and Chocolate as 90L crystal you would expect, without addition of the lime, mash pH of 5.33 or thereabouts. Assuming the strips read 0.3 low which is apparantly a fair guess you might expect to read 5.00 from them. Larger offsets (always to the low side) have been reported so 4.9 is not that unreasonable. So turns out you probably did not need the lime after all.

Yes, you have a lot of specialty malts (27%) but even so you aren't near pH 4.9. As I noted earlier, you would definitely have to reach to get that. You could do it with 27% base malt and 73% 60L Caramel though!

 

[Yooper]

Ouch on the little old lady comment. Haha.

Sorry for the ouch comment- but I am a little old lady. Well, I"m 50 and not exactly huge, and I do make pickles- so I was more referring to myself.

I'm pretty badass, though- I even use sodium hydroxide (lye) to make pretzels and soap.

 

[MaxStout]

I'm pretty badass, though- I even use sodium hydroxide (lye) to make pretzels and soap.

Interesting. I always thought baking soda was used to make pretzels. Is there an advantage to using lye over bicarb?

As long as you're playing with lye, do you also make lutefisk?

 

[Yooper]

Interesting. I always thought baking soda was used to make pretzels. Is there an advantage to using lye over bicarb?

As long as you're playing with lye, do you also make lutefisk?

Oh, there are advantages to lye over bicarb in pretzels, but those who don't have lye on hand can get by with the baking soda. Look up brauskaiser's authentic "bretzl" recipes (did I spell it right?) and you can see why I love my lye pretzels so much.

I don't make lutefisk- it's so cheap to buy in the store at Christmas and I don't have a barrel anyway.

 

[ajdelange]

Interesting. I always thought baking soda was used to make pretzels. Is there an advantage to using lye over bicarb?

What you are after is a Maillard reaction (non enzymatic browning). These reactions between amino acids and sugars are promoted at high pH because the amino groups get deprotonated. Baking soda gives pH around 8.3. With lye solutions you can get much higher than that.

 

[briggssteel]

OK, that makes sense. Modeling the Maris Otter as having a DI mash pH of 5.62 and everything else except the Carapils and Chocolate as 90L crystal you would expect, without addition of the lime, mash pH of 5.33 or thereabouts. Assuming the strips read 0.3 low which is apparantly a fair guess you might expect to read 5.00 from them. Larger offsets (always to the low side) have been reported so 4.9 is not that unreasonable. So turns out you probably did not need the lime after all.

Yes, you have a lot of specialty malts (27%) but even so you aren't near pH 4.9. As I noted earlier, you would definitely have to reach to get that. You could do it with 27% base malt and 73% 60L Caramel though!

If the Colorphast PH strips really do read 0.3 low that's bad for accuracy's sake, but makes me feel better about my PH. When I plugged everything into Martin's Bru n water software it gave me a PH of 5.1 without pickling lime, so you're probably onto something about them reading low.

Maybe when it's all done and I give it a try I'll resurrect this thread and post the results on how it turned out. I'll pay attention to if it's thin or if it has an acrid flavor that I know beers can get if the PH is too low. Although taste is a very subjective thing and there are many other factors involved in brewing besides water.

 

[MaxStout]

Oh, there are advantages to lye over bicarb in pretzels, but those who don't have lye on hand can get by with the baking soda. Look up brauskaiser's authentic "bretzl" recipes (did I spell it right?) and you can see why I love my lye pretzels so much.

I don't make lutefisk- it's so cheap to buy in the store at Christmas and I don't have a barrel anyway.

I loves me some soft pretzels, but have never made them myself. I found the recipe, thanks. I might add a little spent grain (there's a craft brewery in SE Minnesota that makes awesome spent grain pretzels and I like the added texture).

 

[Yooper]

I loves me some soft pretzels, but have never made them myself. I found the recipe, thanks. I might add a little spent grain (there's a craft brewery in SE Minnesota that makes awesome spent grain pretzels and I like the added texture).

This is WAY off topic of pickling lime, sorry about that to the OP.

But if you make the brezels exactly per Kai's directions, you will be a happy camper. Then, make pretzel rolls/buns for hamburgers or pulled pork sandwiches and you will be in heaven. Trust me.

Anyway, to take this back to hazardous alkali, pickling lime is one of the most innocuous if sensible precautions are taken. Lye is more caustic, but even lye can be use at home for people like me who make soap and pretzels.

With any chemical, common sense precautions should always apply. Don't breathe in the fumes, protect eyes and skin, and it's really ok to use.

 

[Calichusetts]

How I now envision Yooper after reading through this thread:

The first rule of pickling is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT PICKLING!

 

[Ilan34]

How I now envision Yooper after reading through this thread:

The first rule of pickling is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT PICKLING!

Lol

 

[dmr]

...

4.3 gallons of water with 12.25 lbs of grain. Mash ratio of 1.4 qts per pound. I also added a teaspoon of calcium chloride (3.4 grams) and a half teaspoon of gypsum (2 grams)

9 lbs Marris Otter
8 oz Crystal 80
8 oz Special Roast
8 oz Victory
8 oz Brown Malt
8 oz Carapils
4 oz Pale Chocolate

I used my mash pH calculator (model based on Kai's experiments) with your water volume, malt bill and salts, and I calculate a predicted mash pH of 5.30, in good agreement with AJ's calculation. This calculator is available on my website (see signature). Cheers.

 

[ajdelange]

When baked at a high enough temp, Calcium Hydroxide breaks down, losing the H2O component of its molecule, and becomes Calcium Oxide (quick lime). This is caustic stuff, but you won't encounter it in your use of pickling lime.

Since this came back to life I just noticed this comment. Quick lime isn't any more caustic than slaked (in fact it isn't caustic at all until it is slaked) but when it does become slaked it is caustic AND the slaking reaction is very exothermic. It is because of this that it has to be treated with extra respect.

 

[MaxStout]

Since this came back to life I just noticed this comment. Quick lime isn't any more caustic than slaked (in fact it isn't caustic at all until it is slaked) but when it does become slaked it is caustic AND the slaking reaction is very exothermic. It is because of this that it has to be treated with extra respect.

Hmmmm...you might want to compare and contrast the MSDS for calcium oxide versus that for calcium hydroxide.

Calcium oxide is given a reactivity rating of 2, compared to 0 for calcium hydroxide. Calcium oxide is deemed "very hazardous" in case of skin contact (Section 3), versus "hazardous" in skin contact for calcium hydroxide. CaO is given an overall health warning of 3; Ca(OH)2 is 2.

Calcium oxide is more hazardous due to its great affinity for water, meaning that its contact with skin (which has moisture) will create the exothermic reaction you mentioned. I'd call that "caustic."

 

[ajdelange]

Calcium oxide is given a reactivity rating of 2, compared to 0 for calcium hydroxide.

That's why it is called 'Quick Lime'

Calcium oxide is deemed "very hazardous" in case of skin contact (Section 3), versus "hazardous" in skin contact for calcium hydroxide. CaO is given an overall health warning of 3; Ca(OH)2 is 2.

Because the heat released can burn you. Though its flammability rating is low (because the material itself doesn't burn) it has started fires in cases where, for example, bags stored in a shed get wet because of a plumbing or roof leak during a storm.

Calcium oxide is more hazardous due to its great affinity for water, meaning that its contact with skin (which has moisture) will create the exothermic reaction you mentioned. I'd call that "caustic."

That isn't what 'caustic' means:

Caustic:

able to burn or corrode organic tissue by chemical action.
"a caustic cleaner"
synonyms: corrosive, corroding, abrasive, mordant, acid

Hydrated quick lime is still Ca(OH)2 whatever the source of water. Its chemistry is still that of Ca(OH)2. Hot Ca(OH)2 is, of course, more chemically reactive than cold Ca(OH)2 so I suppose you could argue that hot Ca(OH)2 is more caustic than cold but the real danger is of burns from the heat released by the hydration not the proton absorbing abilities of the hydroxyl ions.

It's a fine point in any case.

 

[rhys333]

Quick question about dissolving pickling lime...

I'm making belgian candi syrup now and using pickling lime (Cal Mexicana) to raise the pH to drive melanoidin reactions. I'm told to dissolve 21ml/21g in about a cup of water and its suggested to decant off any remaining solids. Problem is, after much stirring, I still have mostly solids, much or it suspended in solution. If I don't decant, is this potentially toxic to add to the boiling sugar?

 

[Robert65]

Quick question about dissolving pickling lime...

I'm making belgian candi syrup now and using pickling lime (Cal Mexicana) to raise the pH to drive melanoidin reactions. I'm told to dissolve 21ml/21g in about a cup of water and its suggested to decant off any remaining solids. Problem is, after much stirring, I still have mostly solids, much or it suspended in solution. If I don't decant, is this potentially toxic to add to the boiling sugar?

If you are not getting it to dissolve very easily, it is likely not calcium hydroxide. That dissolves very easily. Your product is probably either significantly contaminated with calcium carbonate (chalk) or else it has over time reverted from calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) to chalk. You can test it. Put a couple of drops of acid on a sample. If it does not bubble at all, it is calcium hydroxide. If it bubbles at all, it is at least partly if not entirely chalk. Chalk of course does not dissolve under normal conditions and is useless in brewing, and probably for your purposes in sugar processing. Come to that, it's also useless for nixtamalization, which it was sold for if you bought it as cal. Try going to Walmart for a bag of Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime. I've always found it to be of high purity and to give the desired results in brewing.

 

[rhys333]

If you are not getting it to dissolve very easily, it is likely not calcium hydroxide. That dissolves very easily. Your product is probably either significantly contaminated with calcium carbonate (chalk) or else it has over time reverted from calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) to chalk. You can test it. Put a couple of drops of acid on a sample. If it does not bubble at all, it is calcium hydroxide. If it bubbles at all, it is at least partly if not entirely chalk. Chalk of course does not dissolve under normal conditions and is useless in brewing, and probably for your purposes in sugar processing. Come to that, it's also useless for nixtamalization, which it was sold for if you bought it as cal. Try going to Walmart for a bag of Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime. I've always found it to be of high purity and to give the desired results in brewing.

Thanks for the quick reply. I will try the acid test.

I gave up on the Belgian candi today. Two boil overs due to DME-induced perma-hotbreak, and then the syrup decided to recrystalize while still boiling. What a headache.

Also, I can't find grocery store pickling lime here in Canada, other than the stuff at the latin grocery stores. I think they pulled it due to being a risk of botulism when used in pickling.

 

[rhys333]

Put a couple of drops of acid on a sample. If it does not bubble at all, it is calcium hydroxide. If it bubbles at all, it is at least partly if not entirely chalk. Chalk of course does not dissolve under normal conditions and is useless in brewing, and probably for your purposes in sugar processing.

I did the acid test and no reaction at all. This stuff is supposed to be pure calcium hydroxide.

 

[Robert65]

I did the acid test and no reaction at all. This stuff is supposed to be pure calcium hydroxide.

In that case I guess it's just that you're trying to dissolve a lot in a relatively small amount of water? I just realized how much 21g must be. I expect you're just trying to make a saturated solution in this application, hence decanting clear solution off the undissolved portion. I've never used it other than for adding alkalinity to strike liquor where the proportion is much smaller, and I've only made British Invert, so never had to alkalize my sugar syrup. If the instructions say there's supposed to be some solids, I guess you're good. Better luck with the candi next time.


EDIT yeah just tried 21g in a cup of water. Better not let the cat near that, it looks like milk! The sugar instructions would probably have been more helpful if they actually prescribed the correct amount to make a saturated solution without the overkill, right?

 

[rhys333]

In that case I guess it's just that you're trying to dissolve a lot in a relatively small amount of water? I just realized how much 21g must be. I expect you're just trying to make a saturated solution in this application, hence decanting clear solution off the undissolved portion. I've never used it other than for adding alkalinity to strike liquor where the proportion is much smaller, and I've only made British Invert, so never had to alkalize my sugar syrup. If the instructions say there's supposed to be some solids, I guess you're good. Better luck with the candi next time.


EDIT yeah just tried 21g in a cup of water. Better not let the cat near that, it looks like milk! The sugar instructions would probably have been more helpful if they actually prescribed the correct amount to make a saturated solution without the overkill, right?

The person that created the source video I followed responsed to me today regarding the lime solution. He say that it will not mix fully, and that I should stir immediately before use to suspend the particles in solution.

Is this safe, or could caustic properties of the pickling lime survive the chemical reaction and taint the resulting candi sugar?