How Pure is My Pickling Lime?

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ajdelange

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In another thread Matt wondered about the purity of things like pickling lime and sodium bicarbonate. That thread has been pulled far enough off topic that I thought it might be better to start a new thread here as this may generate some discussion.

The general supposition is that as lime is made by

CaCO3 + H2O + heat ----> Ca(OH)2 + CO2

(the heat is added first and then the water) that the reaction is reversible

CO2 + Ca(OH)2 ----> Heat + H2O + CaCO3

This is the reaction by which cement cures and I mentioned in the other thread that it has only been in recent years that BLM shut off the cooling water to the Hoover dam structure as the cement had finally completely cured. The supposition is that over time the picking lime we buy from the supermarket will transform at least partially back into limestone which means rather than adding the quick acting lime we are adding the slow acting chalk whose problems we are trying to avoid by adding lime instead. The question is "Does my lime contain any calcium carbonate and if so how much?" It has been suggested here many times that a simple test would be to pour vinegar (or other acid) over a sample and see if it fizzes. If it does then there is obviously some chalk in it. If we try to dissolve half a gram in a liter of water and we can't then it's clear that there is some CaCO3 in there, but how much? The key to finding out is alkalinity.

Take a sample of the powder, put it in a dish or beaker and bake it in the oven for a couple of hours to drive off any absorbed water. Remove the powder from the oven and cool in a dessicator if you have one but otherwise in a small sealed jar. When it is cool weigh out about 1/4 gram quickly and put into a beaker or flask. You don't need an exact amount but you do want to know as exactly as possible what that amount was. Add 200 ml DI water and a stir bar. The solubility of Ca(OH2) is 173 mg/100 mL which would be 340 mg/200 mL (at 20 °C) so 250 mg should dissolve completely in 200 mL. If the water turns clear after some stirring then the powder was mostly Ca(OH)2. If it does not clear then there is some calcium carbonate in it. Add 0.1 N acid* to the 100 mL until pH 4.3 is reached. You will have to be careful doing this as the reactions take time to complete. Add a small amount of acid and monitor the pH. It may drop precipitously and then creep back up. After it does this add another small increment of acid, stir and wait. pH will inch up again. Eventually the solution will begin to clear and you can continue the titration to pH 4.3 but go really slowly on the acid once the solution is clear as a little bit causes a large pH swing as you approach end point. When end point is reached the total alkalinity (200 mL of DI water and powder) in mEq is simply the 0.1 times the number of mL of 0.1 N acid you used. The alkalinity of the liter of water itself is 2.5/50 per liter and so you can subtract 0.2*2.5/50 = 0.001 and can subtract that from the acid used if you want but it shouldn't be significant. Assuming 250 mg of pure calcium hydroxide with molecular weight 74 you would need 2*250/74 = 6.75676 mEq (67.57 mL of 0.1N acid). Assuming 250 mg of pure calcium carbonate with molecular weight 100 you would need 2*.992*250/100 = 4.960 mEq (49.6 mL 0.1 N acid). For lime that has partially degraded to CaCO3 you will need something in between.

Now lets see what to expect for each 100 mg of powder assuming the powder is 100*x percent (by weight) calcium hydroxide with molecular weight 74 and 100*( 1 - x) percent calcium carbonate with molecular weight 100. The alkalinity of 100 mg of the powder is then

alk = 200*x/74 + 0.992*200*(1-x)/100

Remember that this is alkalinity in mEq (not ppm as CaCO3). The 200 factors are there because each millimole of the calcium hydroxide and calcium carbonate contributes 2 mEq of proton absorbing capacity. The factor 0.992 is there because 0.8% of carbonate ion remains as bicarbonate at pH 4.3. You can probably neglect that factor but we'll continue to carry it. Doing some algebra but leaving the numbers in place so you can see where the molecular weights go

x = (alk/2 - 0.992)/((100/74 - 0.992)

Remember that x is the fraction of calcium hydroxide in the powder and that alk is for 100 mg of powder (corrected for the water's alkalinity). If we had 100 mg of Ca(OH2) i.e. pure lime, alk would be 200/74 = 2.7027 mEq. If we had 100 mg of chalk (pure chalk) alk would be 0.992*200/100 = 1.984 mEq. Thus the difference between pure lime and pure chalk is approximately 0.7 mEq per 100 grams of powder. If titrating 100 mg of powder this would be a difference of only 7 mL of 0.1N acid. That's why we have done things 'per 100 mg of powder' thus giving you the option to use more powder and increase the sensitivity of the test. For 250 mg you would need 2.5 times more acid (i.e. there would be a difference of about 7*2.5 = 17.5 mL between pure and 0 percent lime) and small degradations become easier to see. Clearly the 17.5 mL difference covers 100% range so the sensitivity is about 5.7%/mL and, if the buret can be read to 0.1 mL then the sensitivity is about half a percent. To be clear: if a quantity of poweder other than 100 grams is used, divide the alkalinity by (amount_of_powder/100) and use that alkalinity in the formula for x.
Matt was also interested in sodium bicarbonate for which

alk = .992*100*x/84 + 0.992*200*(1-x)/124

per 100 mg powder. Here we are using the molecular weigh of the monohydrate form of sodium carbonate under the assumption that when it decomposes:

2 NaHCO3 ---> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

the water sticks around to hydrate the sodium carbonate and that the heating used to dry the sample before weighing is not sufficient to drive it off.

Again, sparing you the algebra we get a formula for the fraction of sodium bicarbonate based on the alkalinity per 100 mg.:

x = (alk/99.2 - 2/124)/(1/84 - 2/124)

Here for 100 % NaHCO3 we'd have an alkalinity of 1.19 and for 0% NaHCO3 alkalinity of 1.61 per 100 mg, a difference of 0.42 mEq equivalent to 4.2 mL of 0.1N acid. Using 250 mg would increase that to 10.5 for a basic sensitivity of about 10%/ml or 1% sensitivity for a buret readable to 0.1 mL.

Now, of course, if either the lime sample or bicarbonate sample is contaminated with, say, 10% calcium chloride or sodium chloride that is going to throw things way off. Evidence is that sodium bicarbonate, even as bought at the grocery store is quite pure (greater than 99%) so we wouldn't expect that to be the case with bicarb. OTOH with the lime I have no idea.

*0.1N acid is suggested because it is commonly sold for alkalinity measurement of water samples. Hach for example sells it by the liter for, I think, around $12.
 
I realized after some thought that the way I recommended measuring alkalinity yesterday was pretty dumb so I have revised #1 substantially. If you are interested in this please re-read. Also I've done a graph which you can use rather than stuffing numbers into the formulas. It's attached here.

Purity.jpg
 
Though my chemistry skills are terrible, I'm going to attempt the test that you have laid out, AJ. It will take me a week or so to get the 0.1N acid and a couple of basic measuring tools (buret, flask, etc.). I am interested in this because it appears as though all of the pickling lime I have purchased, three batches thus far from three vendors, have all been less than 50% pure lime.

I "estimate" that it is less than 50% pure because when I do test mashes or full batches, if I use just over twice the amount of pickling lime that any of the spreadsheets (Bru'n Water, Brewers Friend) calls for, I get a pH that is within .02 from the spreadsheet prediction. It isn't much of a problem now that I know I need to double the amounts because I have hit my numbers almost exactly for my last 4 batches. I don't like not knowing what the other 50% (presumably chalk) is adding to my beers, though.

Thanks AJ for your efforts in figuring this stuff out. I have learned a lot in an area that interests me and that I previously didn't have much knowledge about. And my beer has gotten steadily better for having learned it.
 
You could put 50 mg into 100 mL of water. As the solubility of chalk is only a little over 1 mg/100 mL out of the 50 mg only half would dissolve were the sample 50% chalk. This is a quick test you could do while waiting for the gear to come in.
 
Thanks AJ. This is a great way to look at this...

I am still wondering if there is a filler to perhaps slow the absorption of moisture and to reduce caking. Looking at the packages of a couple of brands - it appears there is not, however, I have seen variance in effectiveness (albeit observation in application with other minerals). I cannot rule out user error here - I could have made occasional errors in measurement (dry weight) that are the culprit. I would only trust my test mash readings, which are far fewer than my brews unfortunately. I put about a 15% lower difference between some slaked lime (LD Carlson?) from a LHBS and some Mrs.Wages Pickling Lime. I tossed the caked up plastic jar when I got the the Pickling Lime - been much happier.
 
I found a jar labeled 'pickling lime'. It's so old I don't recall where it came from but given the label I assume it was the supermarket. First off it fizzed when I put a couple of drops of 3N HCl on it. Clearly some calcium carbonate in there. I measured out 97 mg, added about 100 mL of water dropped in a stir bar and let her rip. After about half an hour there was lots of undissolved powder. The suspension was milky and when the stir motor was turned off plenty of powder settled to the bottom of the beaker. Further evidence for CaCO3. Finally, it took 22.7 mL of 0.1 N H3SO4 to clear this solution and get the pH to about 4.1. Note that this has taken me about 6 hrs. It is the old acid plus carbonate thing in which acid brings the pH of a milky suspension to well under 4 (closer to 3) followed by gradual increase in the pH and decrease in the turbidity as the acid and CaCO3 react. At this point the solution looks clear but there are some tiny flecks in there (much smaller than they were a couple of hours ago but still visible under bright light). This is a very significant observation for whenever the discussion of the use of chalk comes up. It seems to take half a day for chalk to react with mineral acid from a bottle and we should expect slower reaction times from malt acids at appreciably higher (mash) pH.

Anyway, adjusting for the 97 mg and stuffing in the formula it appears that this powder is 50 % calcium carbonate. Now I find this very surprising for while this stuff is very old it has sat in a thick plastic jar with a tighly sealing lid. The jar contains about a pound (454 grams) of what was presumably originally lime which is about 6 moles which would, if half converted, require about 3 moles (67 litres) of CO2 which comes as 0.03% of the atmosphere. That much air, 22904 litres, did not diffuse through that jar even if it has been 20 yrs. I'm starting to think that the original product must have contained some but all the advertised products I look at claim to be pretty pure lime.

The question now becomes what to do about this. I think perhaps the answer is to mimic what reef aquarists and cooks do: use lime water rather than lime. Lime water is just a saturated solution of lime prepared by putting a bunch of lime in a jar, adding DI or RO water, shaking it up and letting it stand. The isoluble stuff, the calcium carbonate in my 'lime', would not dissolve to any appreciable extent. The amount of alkalinity contributed by a mL of saturated lime water ought to be pretty constant. I (or someone) would need to figure out what that is if there is interest in this approach.
 
AJ - I haven't yet tried the saturated solution process with calcium chloride but plan to. I can easily do the same with the lime. I do wonder at the vessel for this - glass certainly, but wondering if a plastic jar will be stable under the alkaline conditions.

Just to make sure I am understanding this - essentially the solution will precipitate the calcium carbonate or other possibly insoluble materials. The resulting should be a solution with relatively strong alkalinity. In DI water, the precips should be minimized right?
 
Yes, that's the idea. A quart mason jar should do nicely. Evidently the aquarists can buy machines into which you dump a quantity of lime and hook to your pure water supply. A motor comes on every few hours and mixes this up and then, after its settled, meters some of the supernatant into the tank. Don't know if this is controlled by a pH controller or by a metering pump.

With tap water presumably any magnesium would precipitate as the hydroxide and any (or most of) the alkalinity as calcium carbonate. A calcium carbonate skin (from CO2 in the air) will form over the surface of the water (I saw that happen after letting my experimental mix stand). I guess you want to stir that back in or shake it back in and let it settle or closely cover the jar after shaking. Certainly any phosphate in the water will settle as apatite. And, of course, any calcium carbonate in the product, from whatever source, will settle. With DI water you wouldn't get the alkaliity or phosphate components but all the other stuff would settle with DI water too. In either case lots of metal hydroxides should go down too.
 
Assuming Wiki is reasonably accurate, it appears that a saturated solution of slaked lime is roughly 1.5g/l, so that would run about 6 grams saturated in a 4 liter solution. Apparently the trick is that the solution turns milky just at the saturation point, and the excess is calcium carbonate that gives the milky appearance. The pH of the solution should be around 12.3, but the article didn't reference the end point.

So measuring this out for use... would I divide the dry weight required into the volume by ratio? so say, 0.5 liter yields the effective dry weight of 0.75 grams?
 
The solubility limit may give you a rough handle on the 'strength' but you don't put the limit amount of the 'salt' into a jar and add enough water to just reach saturation. You put two or three times as much as would be necessary to saturate and shake it all up. In the 'milk' you thus have any of the insoluble things mentioned in the earlier post and a fair amount of Mg(OH)2 as well. All that stuff settles insuring that you have a saturated solution of Ca(OH)2. You would then titrate the saturated solution to determine it's strength unless we can find that number somewhere. I'll do the titration soon if I can't find it.

As the pH of a saturated solution is reportedly 12.3 (at 20 °C?) that implies that the hydroxyl ion concentration is 1000*10 ^(14.17 - 12.3) = 13.5 mEq/L which really isn't much if you think about it. For example, if you needed 54 mEq of alkalinity because of some extra black malt in a 3.5 gal mash you'd need 4 liters of kalkwasser. I guess that's not really such a big deal.
 
The amount of alkalinity contributed by a mL of saturated lime water ought to be pretty constant. I (or someone) would need to figure out what that is if there is interest in this approach.

I would definitely be interested in this approach. Thanks for all of your efforts, AJ.

Interestingly, the last batch of lime I bought is called kalkwasser and has instructions on the jar for making the saturated solution. I didn't understand when I first read the jar why one would want to do this, but now it makes perfect sense.
 
Here are two pictures of the back of my kalkwasser package, in case any of this info helps you, AJ, in your calculations. It says to add 6g of lime to 4L of pure water to make a saturated solution. Adding 4L of saturated kalkwasser solution to 150L will raise the calcium by 24mg/L. It indicates that there is 0.9mg of calcium in a saturated solution (presumably per 1g of the saturated solution???).

Hope some of this helps.

View attachment 1424648459833.jpg

View attachment 1424648468122.jpg
 
Great. That's enough info. Twenty four mg/L Ca++ is 24/20 = 1.2 mEq/L. Multiplying by 150 L gives 180 mEq which came from 4 L of the saturated solution so the calcium concentration in 1 L of the saturated solution is 45 mEq/L. It must contain (when freshly made i.e. before any CO2 from the air gets to it) an equivalent amount of hydroxyl. That works out to a pH of 12.65 (25 °C ) which isn't quite what Wikipedia says (12.3) but reasonably close I guess.
 
Great. That's enough info. Twenty four mg/L Ca++ is 24/20 = 1.2 mEq/L. Multiplying by 150 L gives 180 mEq which came from 4 L of the saturated solution so the calcium concentration in 1 L of the saturated solution is 45 mEq/L. It must contain (when freshly made i.e. before any CO2 from the air gets to it) an equivalent amount of hydroxyl. That works out to a pH of 12.65 (25 °C ) which isn't quite what Wikipedia says (12.3) but reasonably close I guess.

AJ, I've been thinking about this since yesterday. Using my decidedly non-chemist brain, if 1g of saturated solution in pure water contains 0.9mg of calcium, couldn't we just substitute an equivalent weight of the saturated solution for the amount of lime required to reach a target pH?

For example, if my grist requires 3g of pickling lime to hit my target of 5.45 pH, could I add 3g/.09mg or 3/0.0009 or 3,333.33 g of saturated solution? That would require using 3.33L of saturated solution in place of RO water in my mash.

I'm sure this is too simple and there is a problem with this approach, but it is what I've been kicking around in my head.
 
I would make sure that limewater is completely blended with the strike water before - and I am just not sure that makes sense given the precipitation of chalk in de-carbonating with lime. It also seems that adding that amount of alkali volume (liquid) into the mash will cause one portion of the mash to race up to a very high mash pH before all of the limewater is completely distributed. Of course, this is the same issue with the slaked lime powder. Stirring well is really necessary to completely distribute evening through the mash regardless... and is the reason I add my hardness minerals to the strike water pre-grain in. I have been blending any alkali (usually lime or baking soda) into the basemalt grist before adding it to the strike water. This 'appears' to result in a much more stable and slow pH shift toward my target at 15 minutes or so, rather than the more sharp rise in pH and slow drift downward where it may take 30 minutes. My concern here is extended time at or above 6.0 and tannins, and a lot of astringent roast grains in grist.

Does the hydroxyl react with any other residual ions? I know it can be a strong oxydizer. aka... coming from RO, not sure if this is a rational question - since I would only use it in very acidic mashes, dark beers.
 
I have been blending any alkali (usually lime or baking soda) into the basemalt grist before adding it to the strike water.

How have you been blending the lime into the basemalt grist? I can't fathom how to evenly distribute a couple of grams of powdered lime into 10+ pounds of milled grain. This isn't meant to sound like a criticism, I just can't mentally picture how to effectively stir powder into dry grain.
 
I toss it onto the milled grist and stir a bit before grain-in... as I grain-in I mix vigorously and it takes less than a few minutes to grain in a 20-30# batch. So I feel that gets everything fairly well turned over and distributed. At least when I visually inspect the mash dark malts are well mixed in - so expect the powder will be reasonably incorporated as well. If my mash pH is low, then I have to stir in the dry powder of course, but haven't found the need to move my mash in the last 15 or so batches.
 
AJ, I've been thinking about this since yesterday. Using my decidedly non-chemist brain, if 1g of saturated solution in pure water contains 0.9mg of calcium, couldn't we just substitute an equivalent weight of the saturated solution for the amount of lime required to reach a target pH?
Yes, in principle, but the numbers don't quite work out. It says that to make a saturated solution you add 6 grams to 4L water. That's 6000/4000 = 1.5 mg/cc. Or, to just dissolve, add 3000 mg to 4000 cc. That's 0.75 mg/cc. Fifty-three to 54% of this is calcium (0.75 mg/cc or 0.375 mg/cc). OTOH looking at the 45 mEq/L = 0.045 mEq/cc as specified for a saturated solution and multiplying that by 20 (equivalent weight of calcium) we do get 0.9 mg/cc.

What we are really doing here is trying to insure against conversion of the material in the jar to calcium carbonate so we add an excess (more than 6 g in 4 L) shake it up really well and trust that we'll have a 45 mEq/L (900 mg/L) solution of Ca(OH)2 even if there has been modest conversion to lime.

If, OTOH, you trust that a new jar of the product is nearly 100% Ca(OH)2 you can just assume it is Ca(OH)2 and use it as such. I do believe that dissolving it in the liquor will get it more quickly and evenly distributed in the mash than trying to mix the powder in with the grains.
 
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