What is your experience with pitching slightly warm - 75-78 degrees?

[cuda6pak]

I have been brewing for over a year now, all-grain, kegging, stc-1000 ferm chamber, immersion chiller, etc. I, like some people on here, have not been happy with my IPA's/pale ales. There seems to be an "off" flavor that I can't quite describe in anything I brew with quite a bit of hops. I've been through my process front and back and thought I had it nailed with my last iteration by building RO water (via Bru'n water) and hitting 5.4 mash pH (because of a comment I read in Gordon Strong's Brewing Better Beer about hoppy ales being "muddy" when the mash pH is way off, and my porters and stouts tasting great), but the "off" flavor showed back up. I had 5-6 guys from my local brew club taste my latest pale ale and while they all said it was good and drinkable, they too noticed some sort of off flavor. One person mentioned possible diacetyl, but all my IPA's and pales are fermented at 64-68 with rehydrated S-05 and usually ramp to 70 for a few days at the end. No one else had any real suggestions besides sanitation, which I'm painfully careful about. I've tried switching from keg hopping to primary hopping, carbon filtered water (with campden) to built RO water, with no luck. The "off" flavor I get I can taste right out of primary so I know it's not the kegs/lines which I was initially skeptical of. FWIW I ferment in ale pails.

So that brings me to one area of my process that I have been somewhat neglectful about. Typically I have pitched my rehydrated S-05 yeast at a wort temperature of 72-78 degrees, and then immediately placed it in the fermentation chamber and set it to my ideal fermentation temp, 64-66. Now, is it a possibility that in those first few hours while the wort is cooling that I am getting this "off" flavor? In my mind I always figured that the chamber would bring the 5.5 gallons down to the correct pitching temp before the yeast would even have a chance at producing an off-flavor, especially since I don't detect that in my porters/stouts.

So, what are your experiences pitching slightly warm and then immediately chilling to fermentation temp?

 

[Phunhog]

I think you are on to something. Everything that I have read/heard said that pitching warm, even just intially, can lead to off flavors. I bet it can take at least 5-6 hours to get the beer down to 64-66

 

[peterj]

Yeah it could be the warm pitching. If the chamber itself is only at around 65, it's probably going to take it a while to cool the beer down to that temperature. Why don't you put the wort in the fridge for a few hours to get it to the right temperature and then pitch your yeast?

Also, can you describe the "off" flavor a little bit. Without any description it's really hard to figure it out.

 

[thefost]

You know what, I am having the exact same problem with just my hoppy ales, and I pitch at pretty much the exact same temperatures as you. I don't know how to describe my off flavor either but it's been driving me nuts! I will never again pitch warm, so we'll see if that makes any difference in my next IPA.

 

[Howhownow]

Sometimes when I'm pressed for time, don't have sufficient ice, etc., I'll cool to about the range you are talking about, move to carboy, then let it chill in a cold fermentation chamber for a few hours before pitching.
It's kind of a trade off between increasing your lag time and giving any potential bugs a better chance, or potentially stressing your yeast at higher temps. I can't say definitively which is worse.

 

[cuda6pak]

I think you are on to something. Everything that I have read/heard said that pitching warm, even just intially, can lead to off flavors. I bet it can take at least 5-6 hours to get the beer down to 64-66

Yeah it could be the warm pitching. If the chamber itself is only at around 65, it's probably going to take it a while to cool the beer down to that temperature. Why don't you put the wort in the fridge for a few hours to get it to the right temperature and then pitch your yeast?

Also, can you describe the "off" flavor a little bit. Without any description it's really hard to figure it out.

Once I pitch I place it in my ferm chamber and tape & insulate the probe to the side of the bucket, so it gets MUCH colder than ambient. So I imagine it only takes 1-2 hours to get it down to my set temp, though I bet for it to reach equilibrium throughout could be another hour or more. I wish I could describe the off flavor more, that's what I was hoping the brew club guys could help out with :cross:

Sometimes when I'm pressed for time, don't have sufficient ice, etc., I'll cool to about the range you are talking about, move to carboy, then let it chill in a cold fermentation chamber for a few hours before pitching.
It's kind of a trade off between increasing your lag time and giving any potential bugs a better chance, or potentially stressing your yeast at higher temps. I can't say definitively which is worse.

That was what was initially in my head during my first ever brew, and decided that it made more sense to get the yeast in there and not risk infection vs letting it sit and cool for another few hours and then pitching. Especially since I tape the probe to the side of the bucket so the chamber gets cold quick. Plus it's less time I have to spend

I am brewing again this weekend, a session IPA, and will let you guys know how it turns out. I will be throwing it in the ferm chamber and getting it down to 62ish degrees before pitching yeast this time, and see if it makes a difference.

 

[haeffnkr]

Is the flavor sort of peachy? Fruity?
If you ferment too cold s-05 can through off weird flavors.
Most folks stay at 66-67 then ramp up when the ferment is almost done, like 72 or so for s-05

What is your process?
ie 14 days in primary then cold crash for a couple then rack to a keg?

If I was you I would get a good starter of 1056 wyeast ( or something similar) cool the wort to the low end of the yeast range and pitch, bump it up to the middle a day or 2 into the ferment, then ramp up and keep it in the primary for 2-3 weeks then crash and rack to a keg.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=5

Good luck

 

[govner1]

Yeah it could be the warm pitching. If the chamber itself is only at around 65, it's probably going to take it a while to cool the beer down to that temperature. Why don't you put the wort in the fridge for a few hours to get it to the right temperature and then pitch your yeast?



Also, can you describe the "off" flavor a little bit. Without any description it's really hard to figure it out.

^^^This is great advice. I'd also temper your rehydrated yeast by putting it into the ferm chamber, too. That way when you pitch you won't subject your yeast to any temperature shock.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[cuda6pak]

Is the flavor sort of peachy? Fruity?
If you ferment too cold s-05 can through off weird flavors.
Most folks stay at 66-67 then ramp up when the ferment is almost done, like 72 or so for s-05

What is your process?
ie 14 days in primary then cold crash for a couple then rack to a keg?

If I was you I would get a good starter of 1056 wyeast ( or something similar) cool the wort to the low end of the yeast range and pitch, bump it up to the middle a day or 2 into the ferment, then ramp up and keep it in the primary for 2-3 weeks then crash and rack to a keg.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=5

Good luck

I typically ferment it at 65*, but the last pale ale I did was at 68* the entire time.

For IPAs/pales I let it ferment for 2 weeks and then cold crash for 2 days.

 

[ASantiago]

Although I've read from reputable sources that pitching warmer than fermentation temperature is OK, I'd have to say you are pitching too warm and then possibly stressing the yeast not only by immediately reducing the temperature, but also possibly by some of your other temp changes if done too fast.

Every batch I make gets chilled only as far as the garden hose water will take it during that time of the year, but then I put the fermenter in the temp controlled freezer at 3-5 degrees less than my planned fermentation temperature. I then let it sit there at least overnight; 5-6 gallons of sugar water has a decent amount of thermal mass, so it takes time for it to reach equilibrium with ambient.

About 2-3 hours before pitching, I put the yeast starter (which up to this point has been in the regular refrigerator) in the temp controlled freezer too so it reaches the same temp as the fermenter's contents. After that happens, I aerate, pitch, and set the temp controller to the target fermentation temperature. So, both yeast and wort start at the same temperature and that temp is lower than fermentation target.

After 5-6 days, I increase the temp 2-4 degrees to help with the yeast's "clean up" for 5 additional days, after which I cool crash to 38F over several days, at a rate of -5 to -8F per day (which some will think is too aggressive).

I consistently get very good fermentations that finish within 10 days and either in the low 1.010s or below that. I get good flocculation and usually rack fairly (but granted not completely) clear beer to the keg.

I would look at your temperature regime. Also, I switched a long time ago to measuring ambient temperature in the freezer instead of the fermenter temperature, particularly through a thermowell. I found out that I was getting big temp swings in the wort because the thermal mass wouldn't change fast enough and by the time it did ambient was too cold (or hot) and final equilibrium would be way off from where I wanted it. Measuring ambient, it takes longer, but you have less swings as ambient and the wort reach equilibrium a little bit at a time.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I too recommend pitching at or below you're target fermentation temp. During the yeast reproduction phase, I honestly think bad things happen if the temperature rises.

 

[cuda6pak]

I would look at your temperature regime. Also, I switched a long time ago to measuring ambient temperature in the freezer instead of the fermenter temperature, particularly through a thermowell. I found out that I was getting big temp swings in the wort because the thermal mass wouldn't change fast enough and by the time it did ambient was too cold (or hot) and final equilibrium would be way off from where I wanted it. Measuring ambient, it takes longer, but you have less swings as ambient and the wort reach equilibrium a little bit at a time.

My only concern with measuring ambient is that there have been several studies done by members on here showing that actual wort fermenting temperature can be 5-10 degrees warmer than ambient at the peak of a violent fermentation. I do agree with you on needing to bring the entire thermal mass of wort down to pitching temp first.

I will be brewing a session IPA tomorrow night and have an aquarium pump on the way and will try the ice bucket method to eek out those last few degrees. I'll let everyone know the results in a few weeks.

 

[jmadway]

My only concern with measuring ambient is that there have been several studies done by members on here showing that actual wort fermenting temperature can be 5-10 degrees warmer than ambient at the peak of a violent fermentation. I do agree with you on needing to bring the entire thermal mass of wort down to pitching temp first.



I will be brewing a session IPA tomorrow night and have an aquarium pump on the way and will try the ice bucket method to eek out those last few degrees. I'll let everyone know the results in a few weeks.

My experience with ambient fermentation temps is that so long as you are brewing a beer that ferments in the mid 60's, setting your temp controller to 62 for the first 5 days or so of fermentation will keep your beer's temp from exceeding 68. Now if you set it to 68, with a big beer you could easily be fermenting at 75 or higher.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[ASantiago]

My experience with ambient fermentation temps is that so long as you are brewing a beer that ferments in the mid 60's, setting your temp controller to 62 for the first 5 days or so of fermentation will keep your beer's temp from exceeding 68. Now if you set it to 68, with a big beer you could easily be fermenting at 75 or higher.

I haven't done the research, so this is all my best guess.

It seems to me the system composed of the liquid thermal mass and the ambient air are always looking for equilibrium. If the fermenter is generating heat, that heat will radiate out to the ambient air and change its temperature. At that time, the thermostat or probe picks up the change and cooling is turned on. The changes happen faster because the heat is radiating into the small area inside the freezer, not into some larger space, like a room. We can also assume that heat generation is happening throughout the entire fermenter, so heat doesn't have to travel from the center outwards; it will be right there on the sides of the fermenter too.

Granted, that cooling will be turned off as soon as the ambient air's temperature reaches the desired point, but with the constant generation of heat, cooling will be turning on often.

I need to say that the authors of the book "Yeast" (an excellent book) specifically recommend measuring the temperature of the beer (if possible with a thermowell), which is NOT what I'm doing but what I initially did after reading the book. Again, the problem I had were the large temperature swings, mostly to the cold side and worse during winter, so I opted for ambient air measurement.

 

[jmadway]

I haven't done the research, so this is all my best guess.



It seems to me the system composed of the liquid thermal mass and the ambient air are always looking for equilibrium. If the fermenter is generating heat, that heat will radiate out to the ambient air and change its temperature. At that time, the thermostat or probe picks up the change and cooling is turned on. The changes happen faster because the heat is radiating into the small area inside the freezer, not into some larger space, like a room. We can also assume that heat generation is happening throughout the entire fermenter, so heat doesn't have to travel from the center outwards; it will be right there on the sides of the fermenter too.



Granted, that cooling will be turned off as soon as the ambient air's temperature reaches the desired point, but with the constant generation of heat, cooling will be turning on often.



I need to say that the authors of the book "Yeast" (an excellent book) specifically recommend measuring the temperature of the beer (if possible with a thermowell), which is NOT what I'm doing but what I initially did after reading the book. Again, the problem I had were the large temperature swings, mostly to the cold side and worse during winter, so I opted for ambient air measurement.

All that you say here makes sense. My ferm chamber sits in a 60 degree room. As I said earlier, I generally set the ambient temp to COOL to 62 degrees in the chamber and it will need to cool itself often to remain at 62 due to the heat that is being generated in the chamber by the heat coming off the fermenter and by the warm co2 coming out of the airlock. The temp of the fermenting wort generally will stabilize at around 66 or 67 during the most active times of fermentation.



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Bamsdealer]

Always chill to your target ferment temp unless you're experimenting or are going for something non-typical.

My common practice. Chill to 65 for most ales, 50 for lagers, oxygenate by shaking or pure o2 then pitch correct amount of yeast. Hold at pitching temp until fermentation slows then let warm to room temp. I keep my house at 70.

In the summer I chill to around 80 with my immersion chiller, transfer to my fermenter then put it in a water bath to chill the rest of the way.

 

[cuda6pak]

Brewed my session IPA Friday night, got it down to 65.5 degrees before pitching as verified by my Thermapen. Rehydrated S-04 went in, shook it around just a bit to get it mixed in, and put it in the ferm chamber and set to 65 degrees taped and insulated to the side of the bucket. It was bubbling pretty furiously when I woke up the next morning. I'll let you know in another 1.5 weeks when I keg it. Still undecided whether to dry hop in primary or keg.

 

[Paradigm]

I don't worry about it because sometimes you can't help it. For example, yesterday was a hot day and my chiller couldn't get my wort below 74 and I didn't have any ice on hand. So I pitched and put it in the ferm chamber, nothing else to do really.

 

[ASantiago]

I don't worry about it because sometimes you can't help it. For example, yesterday was a hot day and my chiller couldn't get my wort below 74 and I didn't have any ice on hand. So I pitched and put it in the ferm chamber, nothing else to do really.

You could put it in the ferm chamber to finish the cooling and then pitch.

 

[Talgrath]

I always pitch at the low end of the manufacturer's recommended temperature range, I don't have a way to hookup a wort chiller to my kitchen sink so I just give the wort a big ice bath in a 55 gallon tupperware container, works just fine. That said, I have pitched at that temperature (pressed for time at one point, unable to get the temp any lower in hot weather in another) and haven't noticed any off flavors in previous batches of beer, but the beer wasn't further chilled down. It may have more to do with the roller coster ride of temperatures, try to get the temperature down first or let it naturally cool down and keep it consistent and I think you will be fine.

 

[JohnSand]

Do let us know your results. During Summer I often pitch in the upper 70s, cooling more after, with good results. Palmer recommends this, IIRC.

 

[Xpertskir]

I cant believe how much you changed without addressing the single most important factor in brewing, yeast health.

Pitch at or below the temp you want to start fermentation, ferment at wort temps in line with what you want for the strain, pitch the appropriate amount of cells, and properly aerate(or better yet oxygenate your wort).

Not doing any of the above is just plain stupid and will not result in good beer. Yeah yeah yeah, that one time you did X the beer tasted fine...No it didn't, it could have been better.

Take care of your yeast!

 

[cuda6pak]

I cant believe how much you changed without addressing the single most important factor in brewing, yeast health.

Pitch at or below the temp you want to start fermentation, ferment at wort temps in line with what you want for the strain, pitch the appropriate amount of cells, and properly aerate(or better yet oxygenate your wort).

Not doing any of the above is just plain stupid and will not result in good beer. Yeah yeah yeah, that one time you did X the beer tasted fine...No it didn't, it could have been better.

Take care of your yeast!

Well, as stated before it was a matter between potential bugs from delay in pitching, or get them in there and cool that last 10 degrees before the yeast really do anything.

IIRC the reason for pitching low is more for keeping it at the correct fermenting temperature moreso than the exact moment of meeting between the wort and yeast, so long as they are within reasonable temperature of each other to avoid shock. So with a ferm chamber and probe taped to the side, in my mind the wort&yeast would get down to correct fermenting temperature before the yeast even had a chance to start producing off-flavors. Plus the fact of no ester or fusel taste did not lead me to believe I was doing anything to bring out off-flavors.

This was not intended to be a discussion of what happens when you pitch at 80 degrees and then put it your "fermenting closet" of the house, aka a random room with a somewhat static temperature. I carefully rehydrate (or build a starter via Mr Malty), pitch, aerate (if needed), and then immediately bring the temp down the extra ~10 degrees to control the actual fermenting aspect of the process. But, alas, yes I should have been more careful with the pitching temp, I agree. So we will see how this experiment plays out.

 

[Xpertskir]

Delayed pitching is always preferable and in most cases this time of year standard practice for most brewers. The temperature at which the yeast touch the wort is critical, as is any temperature change once they hit the wort. Acetaldehyde can form very quickly, when I first started brewing I experienced a green apple bomb from the exact practice you speak of.

 

[ASantiago]

I agree that delayed pitching is the better option (vs pitching warm). I regularly use my fermentation chamber to take the wort down the last 20 degrees or so, usually overnight, and pitch the next day. No problems.

I wouldn't say the yeast are not doing anything during the 10 degree cool down period. They begin acclimating to their environment the minute you put them in there, reacting to it as needed.

Starting high and lowering isn't entirely crazy, however, and it's mentioned as an alternative in the book "Yeast" (a good read; recommended). It's just not the preferred way and it has its limits in terms of how warm you start and how cool you go.

 

[cuda6pak]

Update.

Well, the jury is in. I think this indeed was the culprit.

Kegged my oatmeal IPA (tired hands hop hands clone) and cannot detect the off-flavor that I had been getting, nor does it linger like it had in my other brews. I will update this thread should the off-flavor come back and this is a fluke, but it does seem promising. Glad to see my suspicions were finally right.

 

[ASantiago]

Not to be a master of the obvious, but are you saying you believe pitching warm was the culprit?

 

[cuda6pak]

Yep, seems to be.

 

[divrguy]

I believe it's the warm temp right away. I have a freezer with stc and a fridge with stc and I'm amazed some times how long it takes for 5.5-6 gallons of wort to cool to pitching temp. My groundwater here is pretty warm. I can get much beyond 80 this time of year and sometimes 78. So, I stopped fighting it. Put it in the ferment chamber and wait. Most times I'm done with my brew at around 11ish. I usually don't get to pitch unlit 4-6 PM before I hit temps.


Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

My first beer was fermented at between 72 and 78 degrees and, while it tastes fine, it does have a relatively strong amyl acetate banana-like smell and flavor to it, which reminds me a lot of hefeweizen, even though this is a pale barley malt-based blonde ale.

At the time I fermented it, I had ZERO possible method to control the temperature (other than very weak things such as air conditioning), but I have temperature control methods now which should allow me to always ferment within the recommended temperature.

 

[Paradigm]

I think there general sentiment around this community is pretty accurate:

You can do it, we have done it, but it can produce off flavours so you shouldn't.