VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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Oxygen would actually reduce the sulfur smell.
Quite possibly.
Warm Fermented Lager Thread
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Oxygen would actually reduce the sulfur smell.
Quite possibly.
I also had these sulphury corn experiences when brewing american lagers warm and with about 20-30% corn.... Could be the nutrients, could be somehting else, I don't know. I even had this when using Nottingham for a cream ale with the same amount of corn, now that I think of it. There is definitely something going on with corn and sulphur.
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Right. What I mean is, do you think people are saying sulphur ‘ages out’ because they’re cracking the lid to add finings? That’s what worked here.
VikeMan
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Well, yes. Any O2 that gets dissolved is available to react with H2S (or with other compounds).
Tested my WF lager on 34/70 yesterday; brewed last Saturday, and by Friday was down to 1.008, and tasting great. Set to crash last night and will keg today or tomorrow. Glad I went back to this yeast, it did a great job.
I once added too much Kmeta when transferring to the keg (to protect the beer from 02). It definitely smelled of sulfur, so I'm guessing giving the beer more 02 to react with would have helped. I ended up dumping it. 
Wortchester
New Member
During the last year or so i have made warm lagers with all 4 major dried lager yeasts and i felt i should post my notes somewhere. The process and ingredients have been about the same for all cases.
3 Kg of light LME, half of it boiled with hops and a pinch of yeast nutrient. The hot wort and the remaining extract are combined in plastic bucket fermenter. Tap cold water is added to fill to about 19-20l mark. One package of dry yeast is pitched directly on wort. Temperature of pitch is about 16'C.
The fermenter is set into a temperature buffer and cold water is rotated to keep the fermenter at about 18'C until the primary fermentation starts. Then the temperature is allowed to free-rise to room temperature (~23'C) during the rest of fermentation. The beer is bottled with carbonation shots and oxy-scavanging caps. Bottles are stored in room temperature until day of consumption arrives.
W34/70
Done in 5 days. Goes down to 2'P. Clears out quickly but the yeast doesnt quite stick to the bottles.
Has a clean profile, crisp mouthfeel and some sulphur. The most "legit" of all warm lager tests. In all three times i've tried the yeast, including when using fresh yeast from previous batch, there has been an apricot ester remaining. There isn't much of it but against a clean background it stands out enough for me to notice.
S-189
Done in about week. 2.5'P. Good fast flocculation.
Produces passionfruit ester during fermentation as documented. During bottle carbonation it produced many ale-like esters which worried me for a while. After about two weeks all the flavors subsided and left behind only some white grape ester. In about a month it had a good lagery mouthfeel and taste.
S-23
Done in about week. 3'P left. Good fast flocculation.
Surpriseless fermentation. Small amount of starfruit ester with some maltiness. Very neutral overall. After a few weeks in bottle the mouthfeel crisped a bit and some sulphur came out. Not quite as refreshing as W34/70. Very much like a cheap storebrand lager which is both a backhanded compliment and probably not far away from truth.
Diamond Lager
Worked for 5 days, took one off and finished on seventh. 2.25'P. Clearing took some time but it had nice stick to it.
At the end of fermentation it had a very neutral flavor. Comparable to S-23 but with apple-pear instead of starfruit. During bottle carbonation it tossed out esters and they subsided in few weeks. What remained was red apple ester, similiar to California Ale V without the cherry. Mouthfeel crisp and some sulphur. Bit too estery for a lager but still a good beer.
3 Kg of light LME, half of it boiled with hops and a pinch of yeast nutrient. The hot wort and the remaining extract are combined in plastic bucket fermenter. Tap cold water is added to fill to about 19-20l mark. One package of dry yeast is pitched directly on wort. Temperature of pitch is about 16'C.
The fermenter is set into a temperature buffer and cold water is rotated to keep the fermenter at about 18'C until the primary fermentation starts. Then the temperature is allowed to free-rise to room temperature (~23'C) during the rest of fermentation. The beer is bottled with carbonation shots and oxy-scavanging caps. Bottles are stored in room temperature until day of consumption arrives.
W34/70
Done in 5 days. Goes down to 2'P. Clears out quickly but the yeast doesnt quite stick to the bottles.
Has a clean profile, crisp mouthfeel and some sulphur. The most "legit" of all warm lager tests. In all three times i've tried the yeast, including when using fresh yeast from previous batch, there has been an apricot ester remaining. There isn't much of it but against a clean background it stands out enough for me to notice.
S-189
Done in about week. 2.5'P. Good fast flocculation.
Produces passionfruit ester during fermentation as documented. During bottle carbonation it produced many ale-like esters which worried me for a while. After about two weeks all the flavors subsided and left behind only some white grape ester. In about a month it had a good lagery mouthfeel and taste.
S-23
Done in about week. 3'P left. Good fast flocculation.
Surpriseless fermentation. Small amount of starfruit ester with some maltiness. Very neutral overall. After a few weeks in bottle the mouthfeel crisped a bit and some sulphur came out. Not quite as refreshing as W34/70. Very much like a cheap storebrand lager which is both a backhanded compliment and probably not far away from truth.
Diamond Lager
Worked for 5 days, took one off and finished on seventh. 2.25'P. Clearing took some time but it had nice stick to it.
At the end of fermentation it had a very neutral flavor. Comparable to S-23 but with apple-pear instead of starfruit. During bottle carbonation it tossed out esters and they subsided in few weeks. What remained was red apple ester, similiar to California Ale V without the cherry. Mouthfeel crisp and some sulphur. Bit too estery for a lager but still a good beer.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.
500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.
Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"
They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.
500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.
Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"
They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.
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Color me very much intrigued.
user 263363
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I have to hand it to Lallemand. They are really keeping dry yeast users in the game with a bunch of new strains in the last few years. I will definitely be trying this when my store gets some.
user 263363
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Here’s the first pour of my Vienna Lager that I fermented without pressure at room temperature, ~70°F, with 34/70.
It’s only been in the bottle two weeks and this bottle was only in the fridge for 24 hours so there’s some chill haze that needs to dissipate and it’s still a little green, but there are no obvious off flavors to report. This beer will be included in a FOTHB beer trade so I will have a second person to give me some feedback.
It’s only been in the bottle two weeks and this bottle was only in the fridge for 24 hours so there’s some chill haze that needs to dissipate and it’s still a little green, but there are no obvious off flavors to report. This beer will be included in a FOTHB beer trade so I will have a second person to give me some feedback.
they're coming out with a thiol releasing lager as well.
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I’m drinking the first dregs of my Oktoberfest I kegged yesterday. It’s thick because of the settling/gelatin, but the flavor is great. The MJ California lager yeast is something else - 12 day grain to glass “lager” and only a slightly green taste to it. Will snap a pic in the next couple days, but next weekends Oktoberfest party should be great with bottled and kegged Oktoberfest, a half keg of a festbier, an IPA that should finish mid week and get thrown in the keg, and about 30 bottles of Hefeweizen.
For my last WF lager (grain to glass in 9 days) I went back to using 34/70; was fresh for that one. Brewing another one today with the slurry; I've found for my WF lagers that 2nd gen & beyond yeast yields a faster, cleaner fermentation, as well as a beer that is as close to a cold-fermented lager as I can get in terms of flavor and mouthfeel. Could be overpitching, could be just healthier yeast, but the beers I've brewed with fresh yeast are always a bit 'meh' unless I use two packets; I'm cheap and don't want to do that. Today's brew isn't anything fancy; 70/30 two-row/pilsner, with Cascade for bittering and small additions of Crystal at 10 & 5. Made it several times before and it's always a crowd pleaser.
I was wondering when you chill the wort - it looks like maybe after adding the cold tap water?
Wortchester
New Member
The boil is only about 4 liters. When its added to the remaining extract the temperature will drop below boiling and together with 15-16 liters of cold water the sum ends up around 16'c. I do need to let the tap run to its coldest first or it will stay in the 20s.
Depending on the extract brand, there may be a risk of infection. I recently had some extract from Williams Brewing start to ferment in the sealed package. After contacting the supplier, I got this response: "I spoke to Bill and we do not know when or if we might get more Nut Brown. We do have quite a bit until we run out. Not all of it has been bagged. We've only had a couple that started to ferment in the bag. The other sizes seem to be fine. We do believe it may have had to do with the hot weather. It is refrigerated here and we are now going to put a sticker on the bags in warm weather to refrigerate on arrival." I think they are assuming the extract will be boiled, or at least pasteurized so that the microbes present will be killed. Your quick chill method doesn't look like it would pasteurize the extract. On the other hand, I believe most brands are already at least pasteurized since they can be stored for a long time without refrigeration. Just a heads up.
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Here’s a Helles lager I brewed a couple months back. Mostly 2 row, a bit of light Munich, fermented with repitched mangrove jack’s California lager strain from half of another batch, kegged, and then sat in my kegerator for a few weeks. That decal is on the other side of the glass. By far the hit of our Oktoberfest. My first taste of the evening and it’s just clean. Had brewer friends over for the first time and they really enjoyed this, my two different Oktoberfests, and my Lutra pale ale I brewed last Thursday. They couldn’t believe it was warm fermented. Unfortunately a bunch of people bailed, so none of my keg spots are free… so Oktoberfest round 2 for the neighbors tomorrow? Yes. Yes we will.
It sounded like @Wortchester added the extra extract to the boiling wart and I doubt it would get below the pasteurization temp with just the extract. Then he uses the cold water to chill the wart down to pitching temps.
I finally tried my first ever lager (warm fermented with MJ Cali lager). It is the Munich Madness märzen recipe from brewing classic styles. Tastes great. The finish is dry/crisp and not sweet. I prefer this over the Lutra Oktoberfest I brewed last year (it was good, but this is better).
Thanks to everyone for their warm fermented lager experiments. I definitely want to make more lagers now.
Thanks to everyone for their warm fermented lager experiments. I definitely want to make more lagers now.
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Made myself a Munich Dunkel a few weeks ago, munich and a touch of cara II for color. It's a good beer, but a little out of style as it has more roasty notes than I'd like. I know if I give it some time those will die off though, it's less and less roasty as time passes. Still, a very easy drinker, brewed with repitched MJ Cali Lager from the previous Oktoberfest I made.
echoALEia
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Hi all!
I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.
I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.
What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?
Thanks and cheers!
I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.
I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.
What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?
Thanks and cheers!
I’ve been starting out a touch cooler that that, say about 63 for the first few days then slowly ramping up to about 68. Then I keg, carb, & store around 35 for few weeks. With the off flavors you listed did you lager? Are you bottling or we talking keg?
echoALEia
Well-Known Member
Yes, the acetaldehdye one faded a bit but the fusel one didn’t. I’ll try 63F. Does your ramping up happen over a week?
echoALEia
Well-Known Member
Also, do you ferment under pressure?
No pressure. Yeah so what I’ve been doing lately with beers 1.050 or smaller is chill wort to around 60f and set temp for fermentation to 63f. After 72 hours I go up a degree daily until 68f then hold for a few days. I’ve also tried 63 for 7 days the ramping over the course of another 7 days but didn’t see any real benefit.
Keep in mind ferm chamber temp and ferm temp are not always the same under heavy fermentation. It’s possible that you got warmer than you realize, but maybe not. I do not have a thermowell but I tape probe to the fermenter and insulate it best I can.
user 263363
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So, I am a bit of a Cowboy. My last “lager” was done in a fermonster at room temp, which, at the time, averaged around 72F.
I let it go two solid weeks in the fermenter and then bottled. It’s been in bottles about a month and a half now and fridged for at least a month of that.
It’s fantastic with zero off flavors with 34/70. The only variable that might have made a difference is I pitched a whole pack in a 2.5 gallon batch.
I'll pass along an email from Fermentis about a warm fermentation study. I found it interesting.
MY QUESTION:
In Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Fermentis - the study concluded that “The most important point for the brewers is this: SafLager™ W-34/70 can ensure both a faster and neutral fermentation profile at higher temperatures.” It was tested at up to 20C (68F). But the main product page - SafLager™ W-34/70 - Fermentis yeast for Weihenstephan lagers - shows temperature range up to 18C (64.4F). I am not sure whether 68F is actually in the recommended range or not. Can you help with this?
Also, I can’t find a similar study using S-189. Is there a web page for that?
FERMENTIS REPLY:
Sorry for the time to come back to you, last week has been quite busy, thanks again for the level of details you dedicate to our yeasts,
Be insured that you can work with our SafLager™ W-34/70 up to 68°F without problems, adjustments have to be done on our website,
Similar study for the SafLager™ S-189 doesn’t exist for the moment but we’re working on it, for you to know, create this kind of detailed scientific study takes us almost one year,
That being said, if you have any questions about this yeast strain, I remain at your disposal to answer to all your questions,
Have a nice one,
Cheers,
Hugo
MY QUESTION:
In Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Fermentis - the study concluded that “The most important point for the brewers is this: SafLager™ W-34/70 can ensure both a faster and neutral fermentation profile at higher temperatures.” It was tested at up to 20C (68F). But the main product page - SafLager™ W-34/70 - Fermentis yeast for Weihenstephan lagers - shows temperature range up to 18C (64.4F). I am not sure whether 68F is actually in the recommended range or not. Can you help with this?
Also, I can’t find a similar study using S-189. Is there a web page for that?
FERMENTIS REPLY:
Sorry for the time to come back to you, last week has been quite busy, thanks again for the level of details you dedicate to our yeasts,
Be insured that you can work with our SafLager™ W-34/70 up to 68°F without problems, adjustments have to be done on our website,
Similar study for the SafLager™ S-189 doesn’t exist for the moment but we’re working on it, for you to know, create this kind of detailed scientific study takes us almost one year,
That being said, if you have any questions about this yeast strain, I remain at your disposal to answer to all your questions,
Have a nice one,
Cheers,
Hugo
I should note that in spite of Fermentis' study, my warm fermented (68F) Marzen, IMO, turned out lager-like in terms of esters, but not as crisp tasting as it should have. I liked it very much and will brew it again - I'll call it a pseudo-lager.
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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That was kind of a weird study. The lowest fermentation temperature tested was 54F, which is not really a cold fermentation by lager standards. They did find that certain measurables were pretty consistent between very warm temps and less warm temps.
Sure. The great thing about homebrewing, it's your beer, you can call it whatever you want.
brewbama
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I have settled on 55°F for Lagers and 65°F for Ales. These are wort temps via a thermowell …not ambient temps. Using these temps I am usually SG to FG in 5 +/- 1 day. I am usually grain to glass in ~21+ days.
My timelines and temps are based on this: Fermenting lagers in 21 days except I pitch and ferment at 13°C using the CO2 generated by the ferment to purge the keg I’ll transfer to.
…then I close transfer to a keg with a cpl points to go and spunding valve to finish at 55°F for 7 days for Lagers and 65°F for Ales. I like to close transfer to a CO2 purged keg with yeast still in suspension so it can consume any O2 I inadvertently pickup during the xfer while at secondary temps.
…then I reduce temp to 32°F to cold condition for 7+ days. The beer rests at this temp until I need the keg (~21+ days grain to glass).
in regards to off flavors: I recommend pitching plenty of healthy yeast. Even though the Lager ferment is warm I recommend pitching at ‘Lager rates’. For example, in a 4.5 gal 1.050 wort, 55°F ferment, I will pitch 22 grams W34/70 or a comparable volume of harvested yeast slurry via a ‘shaken not stirred’ starter.
…also, since fermentation is exothermic, expect to control fermenter temps +/- 2°F.
Despite what home brewers on the internet say, one 11 gram package of dried yeast is rarely recommended by the mfr’s guidelines for 5 gal of wort. Fermentis guideline: .5-.8 grams per liter for Ales and .8-1 gram per liter for Lagers. Likewise, rarely is one 11g pack recommended by the Lallemand pitch rate calculator or the pitching rate rule of thumb.
I recommend a pitch rate calculator but a quick rule of thumb for pitching rate is 6 grams of Ale yeast and 12 grams of Lager yeast per gravity points divided by 25 in a 5 gal batch. (Gravity points / 25)*6 or 12= pitch rate in grams.
I used to experience really long lag times, sluggish fermentation, and attenuation all over the map until I began using the yeast per the mfr instructions.
here’s an example of a pitch rate calculation:
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I tend to have brief love affairs with my WF lager yeasts. When I first tried brewing WF lager I used 34/70; but back then my practices (and fermentation temperature control) weren't great. I ditched it rather harshly and went with Lallemand Diamond for a few batches; got clean fermentations, crisp beer, but the slurry didn't like going past 3rd gen (fruity esters that may/may not have been results of bad handling). Then for a long time I stuck with Saflager S23; first batch was always meh, but after that it did great up to 5 generations of slurry. Then a couple of bad batches (still don't know why), and I'm back with 34/70. Last batch was a festbier that had some weird taste on first pull but has lagered into something quite tasty. On kegging day for that I brewed a batch of my house WF lager recipe (70/30 pilsner/two-row, Cascade for bittering and Crystal late boil additions), racked directly onto the yeast cake; that dropped its krausen in three days, and is currently crashing with an eye to kegging on Saturday. I've settled into a routine of primary for 5-7 days at 64°, then ramping up to 68° for a couple of days to help it clean up. Then a good strong cold crash, kegging with gelatin, and lager for a week (unless I really need it on tap then I'll drink it slightly green).
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Brewed a honey imperial lager on Saturday that I’m very excited for. I’ve made it before with Lutra, but this time went with a slightly different recipe and 34/70. That should be done next week.
I also took the second runnings of the mash and got a 1.005 wort from it that I made an NA IPL with 3oz of centennial hops and repitched MJs cali lager. That one is fermenting right in the keg and should be ready to drink next week
I also took the second runnings of the mash and got a 1.005 wort from it that I made an NA IPL with 3oz of centennial hops and repitched MJs cali lager. That one is fermenting right in the keg and should be ready to drink next week
If be interested in hearing how the NA IPL came out and if you think it’s worth the effort of doing.
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Tasted it today and I WAY overhopped it with bittering hops. Way, way, way too bitter. So this one's a dumper unfortunately, but I think I've got a plan for the next one and since it's spent grain, it only costs a few bucks to make. Instead of a 60 min boil with an ounce of hops at the start, I'm gonna do a 30 min boil with 10g of hops at the start for just a bit of bittering, then finish it up with 10g of hops at 5 min, and an ounce of hops in the whirlpool. The initial flavor was pretty nice, but then it hits ya with a ton of bitter in the back of the throat. I'm also going to use about 1/2 as much yeast this time which is about 1/2 of what I usually do for a 5 gallon batch.
I am absolutely determined to find a recipe that works and each try has gotten a bit better than the last. Once I have it down I'll share my approach and recipe. It's really close.
Ok my WF lager peeps, I have a dilemma. Today I brewed my standard WF lager recipe, with the intention of fermenting it colder (50°) on some proven 34/70 slurry. Coolest I could get the wort was 57°, and said the heck with it and racked directly onto the (rather hefty) yeast cake. 3.5 hours later, and it took off; temperature controller is set to 50°, and probe shows 57.2°. Yes I know that the yeast generates its own heat during primary, but what happens when that slows down? Should I still ramp it up for a diacetyl rest, or just let it ride? I was hoping to let this one sit for a couple of weeks to finish out, but it's looking like it will be done in about 5 days. What to do?
IMO: yeast are doing their job at 57, and are now used to 57... i'd keep it at 57 until they're mostly done, then start ramping at the end for the DR. maybe set it a little lower, like 55, yeast probably won't notice - but i would not attempt to get it down to 50 at this point. in my experience nothing good has ever happened when i lower temps on an active fermentation. i'm aware there is a school of thought that says to pitch lager yeast warm then cool down to desired temps, i've never done that so i'm sticking with what has worked for me.
