Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[aceluby]

Brewed my Helles recipe with 34/70 and it was a pretty big banana bomb for about a week. Now it’s a nice crisp German lager. Pitched a Pils yesterday and don’t think I’ve ever had a clearer wort to start. Hopefully should have some time for it to settle before tapping that keg.

After a few kegs of each I think I like MJs Cali lager more for really clean beers. 34/70 is better when you want something that has those lager esters and phenols.

 

[ba-brewer]

34/70 is better when you want something that has those lager esters and phenols.

There should not be phenols from a lager yeast, if you get phenols you most likely have a cross contamination.

 

[aceluby]

There should not be phenols from a lager yeast, if you get phenols you most likely have a cross contamination.

Correct, no phenols in my beer - incorrectly put that there. What I’m getting is slightly sulfuric and banana before a couple weeks of lagering. After being in my keg for a while though, most of that is gone, but definitely more present than when using MJs Cali lager yeast

 

[balrog]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/

ANyone seen this in <500g packs yet? Specifically in the US?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

more beer has the cellarscience
https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-german-dry-lager-yeast.html

 

[aceluby]

Just kicked my Helles just in time for my Pilsner to be done. Now that I have an open fermenter I’m going to brew a Bock right on the Pilsner yeast cake. So far, the Bock smells nice and malty.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

ANyone seen this in <500g packs yet? Specifically in the US?

Malt Miller seem to have it in retail packs in the UK :
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/lalbrew-novalager-modern-hybrid-lager-yeast/
That usually means that they're no more than a few weeks away in the US, at most. Priced at 20% more than the regular Lallemands like Notty, but that still makes it less than 75% of the price of 34/70 - ouch, I'd not realised that was almost up at liquid yeast prices these days.

 

[balrog]

Malt Miller seem to have it in retail packs in the UK :
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/lalbrew-novalager-modern-hybrid-lager-yeast/
That usually means that they're no more than a few weeks away in the US, at most. Priced at 20% more than the regular Lallemands like Notty, but that still makes it less than 75% of the price of 34/70 - ouch, I'd not realised that was almost up at liquid yeast prices these days.

I had not realized 34/70 had jumped. Clearly the warm fermented lager thread has made demand jump. These are the current prices where I typically purchase:

 

[bellhp]

I just paid almost $8 for 34/70 ...where are your prices from Balrog?

 

[balrog]

I just paid almost $8 for 34/70 ...where are your prices from Balrog?

Ritebrew.com.
Shipping to Massachusetts can kill, but I'll get ingredients for 3 all grain batches at a time, and it works out to be way cheaper and much less effort than driving nearly an hr to the closest LHBS, for me. Plus it's one of the few places you can select at one ounce increments of grain to put a recipe together, and Neil is available for questions via email just about any time with great advice.

[Edit: getting just a few packs of dry yeast will go First Class, costing <=$3.50 so 34/70 is like $6/ea if I get 3]

 

[bellhp]

Thank you , I'll give them a shot for my next order.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Could be that Fermentis put their prices up for 2023, and some places have old stock - also possible in our case that the price has been bumped to reflect the difficulties of importing to the UK that are some of the benefits of Brexit.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

ANyone seen this in <500g packs yet? Specifically in the US?

Morebeer have it @$7.99 at least, h/t eliastheodosis in the Novalager thread.

O/t but I see they have 100g packs of dry bacteria from Fermentis, both L. plantarum and L. brevis, which I'm not sure I've seen before.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Thanks, @Northern_Brewer. I've got some Novalager in hand. The first pack is going into a small batch of a straightforward lager at 60F to see what kind of profile it gives. I'm a little worried about how those "low to medium" apple esters are going to play. Same as everyone else, it seems

@sweetcell posted some great materials in that Novalager thread. It gives comparisons to Diamond and Notty and shows that it's low VDK and super low sulfur. Copied below.

I have to clear a tap in my keezer but I'm hoping to have this fermented and on tap with a couple weeks of conditioning around end of Feb. No promises on the timeline but I'll post back when I have it in a glass. As someone that likes lagers after about 8 weeks of conditioning I'm really curious about the reduced maturation time that Lallemand is claiming. After the initial tasting I'll definitely be letting it sit for a few more weeks to see how it changes over time.

more reading material about Novalager, with charts n' graphs n' stuff: Lager than life- Lallemand’s newest shining star, “Novalager” - Murphy and Son

the flavor spider chart below is taken from the article. the apple ester thing has me concerned. imma let others take the first plunge

View attachment 810455

 

[z-bob]

I brewed 4 gallons of 1.053 pilsner wort yesterday, and today I pitched one 11.5 gram packet of 34/70 which I rehydrated using Go-Ferm Protect to make up for the yeast packet being a couple of years old. Twelve hours later and I'm starting to see little rafts of bubbles on top but the gravity is not dropping yet. The temperature is 69°F. When should I move the fermenter to my 50-something degree basement? I assume as soon as the gravity starts dropping and the temperature rising.

 

[balrog]

When should I move the fermenter to my 50-something degree basement?

Um, why you ask these things in a warm fermented lager thread, Nemo?

 

[z-bob]

Um, why you ask these things in a warm fermented lager thread, Nemo?

Because I'm not using any temperature control other than putting it in the basement. This is my first lager and I thought brewing at 60 or so (58 plus the heat of fermentation) was still kinda warm. It's quite possible I'm in the wrong place, I've done that before

 

[balrog]

Oh gosh, no you are in the right place. I was just joshing around with you.

 

[z-bob]

Oh gosh, no you are in the right place. I was just joshing around with you.

Good. I wasn't trolling y'all. I don't know what the optimum temperature is for 34/70, especially with what might be an underpitch. But the gravity has dropped 11 points and there's a nice head of foam on top, so I think it's good. I have moved it to the basement, mostly to get it out of the kitchen before Wife gets home, and I can put it in the utility room at 58° or the heated part of the basement at 68. I put it in the utility room for now and the beer has drifted down to 67°

 

[eliastheodosis]

If you're pitching 34/70 at 69 degrees then this thread might be the safest place for you

I don't know what the optimum temperature is for 34/70, especially with what might be an underpitch.

Any time I ever underpitched 34/70 the biggest problem I had was it stopping short. Sometimes really, really short. I have never used Go Ferm, though, so hopefully that helps. Maybe move it to the 68F room for the last few points or so to give the yeast a better chance of finishing the job. It shouldn't hurt the fermentation profile at that point.

Honestly, if I were you a day ago I would have just stuck it in the 68F room to see how it turns out. You likely would have still gotten a pretty drinkable beer. If it's stable in the utility room now and still dropping in gravity then I'd vote just leave it there and then move it to the 68F room for the last 10 points or so.

For future brews, if you can push the wort down to around 58 or a little lower and then do the majority of the fermentation in your utility room at 58F ambient then you'll get a pretty clean beer out of it. Even a little warmer should be fine. I also know some brewers around me pitch warm and let it chill overnight in the fermentor. My only other advice beyond that is just pitch plenty of healthy yeast. That's the biggest problem I've ever had with 34/70. Welcome to the warm lager club, and the lager club in general, @z-bob!

 

[z-bob]

If you're pitching 34/70 at 69 degrees then this thread might be the safest place for you



Any time I ever underpitched 34/70 the biggest problem I had was it stopping short. Sometimes really, really short. I have never used Go Ferm, though, so hopefully that helps. Maybe move it to the 68F room for the last few points or so to give the yeast a better chance of finishing the job. It shouldn't hurt the fermentation profile at that point.

Honestly, if I were you a day ago I would have just stuck it in the 68F room to see how it turns out. You likely would have still gotten a pretty drinkable beer. If it's stable in the utility room now and still dropping in gravity then I'd vote just leave it there and then move it to the 68F room for the last 10 points or so.

For future brews, if you can push the wort down to around 58 or a little lower and then do the majority of the fermentation in your utility room at 58F ambient then you'll get a pretty clean beer out of it. Even a little warmer should be fine. I also know some brewers around me pitch warm and let it chill overnight in the fermentor. My only other advice beyond that is just pitch plenty of healthy yeast. That's the biggest problem I've ever had with 34/70. Welcome to the warm lager club, and the lager club in general, @z-bob!

It's down to 1.012 already. The predicted target is 1.008 or 1.009 but I'd be happy with 1.010. Temperature is now 60° and still dropping very slowly. I should probably get it out of this bucket pretty soon and into a carboy. (I bottle directly from the fermenter) Then maybe warm it up for a few days to finish? I can't believe how fast this went.

 

[eliastheodosis]

It's down to 1.012 already. The predicted target is 1.008 or 1.009 but I'd be happy with 1.010. Temperature is now 60° and still dropping very slowly. I should probably get it out of this bucket pretty soon and into a carboy. (I bottle directly from the fermenter) Then maybe warm it up for a few days to finish? I can't believe how fast this went.

Yeah, that is pretty fast. Maybe it was the Go Ferm or maybe it was the warm pitch. Probably both. 34/70 can be a beast, though. It goes as low as 1.007 for me pretty regularly when the ferment is healthy so yours probably has a couple points left. From my experience I'd rather it warm up some to finish than cool down. Regardless, I think you'll likely have a good beer here.

Also, when I was bottling lagers I had really good luck lagering them in the fridge once they were in the bottle. I'm not sure of your plan, but if you've got the space maybe let them condition for a couple weeks to carb and then throw them in the fridge. I really enjoy mine after 6-8 weeks of lagering. It's a flavor preference thing, of course, but if you're curious then let at least a couple sit in the back of the fridge and try them in April to see what you think. It works better than you might expect. Cheers!

 

[z-bob]

It finished at 1.008 and 58 degrees. I just transferred it from the bucket to a carboy; added a tablespoon of sugar to scavenge the oxygen, and topped up the carboy with a quart of distilled water to get rid of the headspace, as much as anything because the beer is really too strong for the style (about 6.1% ABV) I think I will put it in the warm part of the basement for a few days, then back in the cold for a week before I bottle it. (unfortunately not cold enough for gelatin fining) I think it's gonna be a fine beer! My nose isn't working because I had covid last week, but I could still faintly smell the floral and lightly-spicy hops when I cleaned the bucket; that was exciting.

 

[eliastheodosis]

It finished at 1.008 and 58 degrees.

Nice! I thought it might end up a little strong You could have worse problems. Otherwise, sounds like it turned out pretty well. Keep us posted on how it turns out. It's really satisfying to make and enjoy a nice pils.

 

[wdavis2003]

Brewed a Helles with S-23 then left the yeast cake in the fermenter. A week later I pitched a Pilsner on top. This was also my first pressure ferment. 5 hours after pitching and just before bed I decided to check it out. The thing was fermenting like crazy. I decided to put the spunding valve on and good thing I did. Was already at 32 psi! Here's what it looked like moments later. By the way the temp had risen to 73 from about 66 where I wanted it. Wasn't sure if it was going to have an off flavor or not..

Miraculously, it had reached 1.009 in about 18 hours. I left it in the fermenter until day 4 then cold crashed for another 3 days. Adding gelatin and here's the beer on day 11. There is a slight fruity character to it which I'm guessing is due to the higher temp? It does finish nice and bready

Please don't deduct points for my choice of glassware for this Pilsner

 

[VikeMan]

Miraculously, it had reached 1.009 in about 18 hours.

I don't think it's a miracle. You pitched an entire yeast cake and fermented hot. I think the time sounds about right.

There is a slight fruity character to it which I'm guessing is due to the higher temp?

I think your guess is likely correct.

BTW, spunding valves that are being used as airlocks should go on as soon as the fermenter is closed.

 

[wdavis2003]

I don't think it's a miracle. You pitched an entire yeast cake and fermented hot. I think the time sounds about right.



I think your guess is likely correct.

BTW, spunding valves that are being used as airlocks should go on as soon as the fermenter is closed.

Duely noted. Remember it was my first pressure ferment and I read on this forum actually, that they always let the pressure build for about 18 hours before attaching a spunding valve. If it were a normal pressure ferment (Starter or dry yeast pitch) the activity would have undoubtedly been delayed enough that it would have been fine to wait 18 hours. Won't make that mistake again.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Just look at that krausen, though! What did you name it?

Seriously, it's a good learning experience. Thankfully you didn't ruin your fancy new FermZilla in the process. How you liking it the new tri-conical? I've yet to pressure ferment in mine but closed transfers now feel almost too easy.

 

[VikeMan]

Remember it was my first pressure ferment and I read on this forum actually, that they always let the pressure build for about 18 hours before attaching a spunding valve.

I'm sorry to hear you read that on this forum, but it's bad advice. Spunding valves should be set for the pressure which you want to maintain, and installed. As long as the pressure is below that set point, it's the same as if there were no valve (i.e. just a closed fermenter). But if the pressure builds faster than anticipated, the valve will let off the excess. There is no reason to wait, unless you want to risk damage to the fermenter.

 

[wdavis2003]

Just look at that krausen, though! What did you name it?

Seriously, it's a good learning experience. Thankfully you didn't ruin your fancy new FermZilla in the process. How you liking it the new tri-conical? I've yet to pressure ferment in mine but closed transfers now feel almost too easy.

I named it.. Pilsner I'm not big into naming my brews except the one that I spilled boiling hot wort on my foot. That one was called the Burnt Foot Lager (Genius I know).

But I just have the basic Fermzilla if that's what you're asking, or maybe you are replying to another post? Would love to have conical but no room in my fermenter and yes, definitely a great learning experience. Thankfully it didn't cost me the fermenter!

 

[eliastheodosis]

But I just have the basic Fermzilla if that's what you're asking

No, that's totally my mistake. I thought it was the conical but I didn't look close enough.

the one that I spilled boiling hot wort on my foot

So we've now got you down for not burning yourself with wort and not blowing up your fermentor We all have made our share of mistakes. I learned not to walk away while filling my kettle...especially while the ball valve is still open. Vikeman is 100% right about the spunding valve, for sure. There's plenty of good advice on this site but also some bad. I'm sorry you ran into some of the latter. You just have to do your due diligence and be safe. Cheers!

 

[wdavis2003]

I learned not to walk away while filling my kettle...especially while the ball valve is still open

OUCH
Oh and do let us know how the lager fermented with novalager yeast turned out. I'm itching to get my hands on that

 

[aceluby]

Brewed a Czech Pilsner i kegged about 10 days ago and kicked it yesterday. Had family over on Sunday and they absolutely destroyed it. Tried it side by with a Pilsner Urquell and the Urquell was definitely oxidized where mine was far fresher tasting. It was also more amber than mine, so this time I added a tiny amount of roasted barley to see if I could match the color. I think I added too much, but it should still taste wonderful.

In the meantime I’ve got a bock in the garage that I have waiting until my porter is kicked. Out of the fermenter it tasted good.

One thing I’ve noticed from two different pitches on yeast cake is that there was a significant green apple smell on the cake after I kegged. Beers turned out really good, but my fermenter was straight apple.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Brewed a Czech Pilsner i kegged about 10 days ago

Did you use the Urquell strain? What temp/pressure if you don't mind me asking?

 

[aceluby]

Did you use the Urquell strain? What temp/pressure if you don't mind me asking?

No, used 34/70 and warm fermented it in the upper 60s

 

[z-bob]

Has anyone tried CellarScience® dried yeasts? Their German lager looks like it might be the same as W34/70 but much cheaper. (current price is $4.49 for 12 grams)

 

[Northern_Brewer]

the Urquell was definitely oxidized where mine was far fresher tasting. It was also more amber than mine, so this time I added a tiny amount of roasted barley to see if I could match the color

So the beer you knew was oxidised, was also darker in colour?

Did you not stop to wonder if those two things were connected?

 

[tdf]

Has anyone tried CellarScience® dried yeasts? Their German lager looks like it might be the same as W34/70 but much cheaper. (current price is $4.49 for 12 grams)

I've used it a few times and it is at least very similar to w34/70. I've always fermented at 13-15c, though.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

No, used 34/70 and warm fermented it in the upper 60s

I've used their cali which is similar to US05 and like it much better so I bought a brick of it, as far as the Germán lager, not yet

 

[eliastheodosis]

Okay, I kegged last night so I've got the vital stats and a first impression of the Novalager. First, wow they are not kidding about the zero sulfur. I took multiple handfuls of the yeast cake to sniff. No sharpness, no nothing at all really. It was so clean my stupid brain started telling me to have a taste, so I had to resist that insane impulse.

The beer itself was still murky so predominant flavors of bready yeast. Under that the next flavors were light cracker and bread from the malt and noble spice from the saaz. What I think I was getting from the yeast was very similar to Diamond Lager. It finished pretty dry but got a slight perception of sweetness that doesn't break the crispness and maybe a hint of apple. It seemed to sit somewhere right between the red apple they claim and the very light green apple I typically get from Diamond.

Jury is still out on this since it was still very muddy. Currently, with how neutral it is already and how light the esters are I would absolutely use this for any kind of IPA. I have a Helles with Diamond on tap right now. My plan is to let this sit for a couple weeks to clear and then do a side by side with the Helles. Maybe blind. Info and pic below. I'll update when I have more. Let me know if you have questions.

Batch size: 3 gallons into fermentor

Vitals:
OG - 1.050
FG - 1.009
IBU - 22
SRM - 3.2

Water:
Ca - 35ppm
Sulfate - 25ppm
Chloride - 27ppm

Malt:
5lb Dingemans Pilsen
8oz Sugar Creek Vienna

Hops:
0.2oz magnum at 60 mins
0.5oz saaz at 15 mins

Yeast:
Novalager
75 g/hl pitch rate
fermented at 58F

Taste Notes at Kegging:
Relatively neutral. Crisp with light sweetness and acidity. Faint ester profile somewhere between green and red apple. Apple might be in my head but I don't think so. TBD after it clears.