Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[moreb33rplz]

I think these are all very traditional Bavarian breweries, with a long heritage each. These guys will probably stick to that.

What I want to say is that you are looking at a very narrow part of the German brewery landscape.

I don't mean to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious, but my google-fu can't find much evidence of german breweries fermenting above 60, and below 50 seems more common. I think Ayinger is also a large scale operation, just based on how many ayinger imports we have in the states, so it isn't some insignificant mom and pop thing.

All that to say - how do you know the majority of German breweries ferment warm?

 

[Miraculix]

I don't mean to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious, but my google-fu can't find much evidence of german breweries fermenting above 60, and below 50 seems more common. I think Ayinger is also a large scale operation, just based on how many ayinger imports we have in the states, so it isn't some insignificant mom and pop thing.

All that to say - how do you know the majority of German breweries ferment warm?

Where did I say that?

 

[McKnuckle]

In post #1501 (wow) you say that most large German breweries pressure ferment for a few days. You don’t explicitly state anything about temperature, but I suppose that aspect is being inferred.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Where did I say that?

You said your friend told you all the big german breweries pressure ferment at warmer temperatures so they can churn out beer more quickly, and when the other guy posted a source saying breweries fermented cold, you said that those were outliers.

 

[Miraculix]

You said your friend told you all the big german breweries pressure ferment at warmer temperatures so they can churn out beer more quickly, and when the other guy posted a source saying breweries fermented cold, you said that those were outliers.

I think the misunderstanding might be caused by the word warmer.

My intention was to say that these big breweries use pressure fermentation to elevate the temperature as high as possible to generate a quicker turnaround. How warm? I don't know. Where I know it from? You already found out yourself, friends of mine working at Holsten in Hamburg. They brew all type of beer there, Astra, Holsten, Carlsberg....

It's self-explanatory, isn't it? Every minute the beer needs less before bottling is money.

If you have an Astra, you can actually taste the rush

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you have an Astra, you can actually taste the rush

That just sounds so wrong from a British perspective!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Is a Baltic Porter with lager yeast at 63-66 F 'techically' a lager, or does no one call a Porter a lager?

Pretty much, but in reality nobody sweats it too much. But since you mention it, this is a good article on the origins of Baltic porter - I hadn't realised the name was so recent :
http://zythophile.co.uk/2021/01/16/...nching-a-few-baltic-porter-myths-in-the-face/

 

[Shenanigans]

That just sounds so wrong from a British perspective!
View attachment 715065

Astra (the beer) is indeed pisch.
A few years ago when I was in the Hamburg area I made the mistake of ordering it with the premis of trying something local
Ratsherrn is not much better except for Matrosen Schluck, that's a nice Oat/White IPA.

 

[Miraculix]

Astra (the beer) is indeed pisch.
A few years ago when I was in the Hamburg area I made the mistake of ordering it with the premis of trying something local
Ratsherrn is just a bit better except for Matrozen Schluck, that's a nice Oat IPA.

I actually like Ratsherren quite a lot, but only their lagers. They try to be crafty and introduced all sorts of hipster ales.... They do not know what they are doing.

Never had Matrosen Schluck!

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Astra (the beer) is indeed pisch.
A few years ago when I was in the Hamburg area I made the mistake of ordering it with the premis of trying something local
Ratsherrn is not much better except for Matrosen Schluck, that's a nice Oat/White IPA.

4 zl/quart.

Paid that much (US$1.35) for 0.5 L about 7 years ago visiting someone in Krakow...not bad inflation...but didn't find Zywiec Porter within driving distance in the US until this year. My AIH clone kit is based on the Zywiec recipe (actually, probably taste), but after turbocharging it intentionally & accidentally, AIH said 'call it a one-off experimental beer due to the outcome ).

Probably going to have to take some liberties with naming/labeling. People trying mine will never fact-check any grandiose allegations. I'll have the approximate geographical references close enough, and if I can find the hard drive with my photos from the trip, can use my own images and avoid agitating another group of people for different reasons.

Luck or not, I have never had such trouble-free brewing with ales (too cool), so I may lean toward lager yeast for a while.

 

[cmac62]

Pretty much, but in reality nobody sweats it too much. But since you mention it, this is a good article on the origins of Baltic porter - I hadn't realised the name was so recent :
http://zythophile.co.uk/2021/01/16/...nching-a-few-baltic-porter-myths-in-the-face/

Great article. Thaks NB

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Yes, great article. I assumed I had read it last week. But it was new for me.
Thanks

 

[seatazzz]

Back OT, I just tested/tasted the (kinda) WF lager I brewed on 1/17; this one was done cooler at 58-62, mainly because the probe wire for the temp controller fried when it got too close to the heat lamp. First brew I've ever had drop below 1.010, this one came in at 1.006 from a SG of 1.056. And NOW I remember why I love Crystal hops in a lager. Nothing but Crystal in this one, from bittering to late (10, 5 and flameout) additions; it's a nice light lager-tasting beer, with some beautiful floral notes in both the nose and the flavor. Just set it to crash until the weekend when I'll keg it, and probably brew up another batch of it. Posted elsewhere, but I read last week that Crystal is an American-grown hop that is very very close to the German noble Mittelfruh; I've brewed with that as well, and to my palate I like the Crystal better. Also it can be had very cheap at YVH and HopsDirect, meaning I can use more if I want to and not go too expensive. Can't wait for this one to be ready.

 

[JohnSand]

Thanks for the review on Crystal, I may buy some.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Hey Guys.

Long time no post just back into the swing of brewing.

Have followed this thread for a long time and now have access to a cold basement.

Plan: 100% Pilsner malt grist

60 minute boil (DMS issue real or not?) with hop additions at the 15 minute marks in descending size.

Then cool and pitch two packs of 34/70 and ferment in basement (about 50-55) for a month or so then bottle and do the rest as normal ale procedure.

I guess this would be a simple Pilsner? Anyway critiques appreciated, also note it is simple on purpose for my first go at this.

Much love HBT.

 

[Miraculix]

Hey Guys.

Long time no post just back into the swing of brewing.

Have followed this thread for a long time and now have access to a cold basement.

Plan: 100% Pilsner malt grist

60 minute boil (DMS issue real or not?) with hop additions at the 15 minute marks in descending size.

Then cool and pitch two packs of 34/70 and ferment in basement (about 50-55) for a month or so then bottle and do the rest as normal ale procedure.

I guess this would be a simple Pilsner? Anyway critiques appreciated, also note it is simple on purpose for my first go at this.

Much love HBT.

Sounds good to me!

 

[dmtaylor]

Hey Guys.

Long time no post just back into the swing of brewing.

Have followed this thread for a long time and now have access to a cold basement.

Plan: 100% Pilsner malt grist

60 minute boil (DMS issue real or not?) with hop additions at the 15 minute marks in descending size.

Then cool and pitch two packs of 34/70 and ferment in basement (about 50-55) for a month or so then bottle and do the rest as normal ale procedure.

I guess this would be a simple Pilsner? Anyway critiques appreciated, also note it is simple on purpose for my first go at this.

Much love HBT.

That's not really a warm fermented lager, but... I'd drink it!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just to note that Wyeast's Q1 seasonals are all lager yeasts - and 2352-PC Munich Lager II (possibly from Augustiner) might be of particular interest with an official temperature range of 11-16°C/ 52-62°F?

The others are 2042 PC Danish Lager and 2001-PC Pilsner Urquell H-Strain with a more traditional 8/9-13°C official range.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

That's not really a warm fermented lager, but... I'd drink it!

Haha well I would classify it as "Warm fermented" because my basement is cold and right now is maintaining maybe the higher end of lager ferment temps but I'm not going to do anything in particular to ensure that stays the case. I'll pop the fermenter down there and forget it for awhile and we shall see.

 

[Birrofilo]

Actually - I've seen another gadget that's not available here, it's a pressure gauge that fits on top of a flip-top bottle, replacing the top. The brewer will bottle the beer, and install that on one bottle as a way to judge progress for the batch.

I suppose that was an aphrometer. That's used to judge carbonation when priming the beer and having a secondary fermentation in the bottle. It's a really simple object and I am surprised I saw nobody make any mention of it here. If you don't find one in the US you can try to do it yourself.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/attempts-at-a-diy-aphrometer.689197/
Sorry for the OT I think this can be of interest.

 

[seatazzz]

Thanks for the review on Crystal, I may buy some.

You won't regret it. Very versatile hop that's been out of vogue for a while with all the new varieties. I've used it in IPA's as well, coupled with some pinier hops like chinook and cascade, and really like the results. I never used it until I got a free pound from HopsDirect after my first order with them, and I keep it in stock all the time now. Seems to be fairly consistent through different growing seasons as well.

 

[Toxxyc]

(DMS issue real or not?)

DMS isn't an issue in modern pils malt anymore, you can treat it like any other malt.

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

DMS isn't an issue in modern pils malt anymore, you can treat it like any other malt.

+1 on what Toxxyc said.

 

[Beermeister32]

I’ve had DMS on 60 minute Pilsner boils. Don’t take a chance on it, some Pilsner malts will produce DMS if not boiled 90 mins. It’s cheap insurance, you cannot remove DMS by aging, it will be a dumper.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I’ve had DMS on 60 minute Pilsner boils. Don’t take a chance on it, some Pilsner malts will produce DMS if not boiled 90 mins. It’s cheap insurance, you cannot remove DMS by aging, it will be a dumper.

I figure it can't hurt to just go 90 minutes, thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve had DMS on 60 minute Pilsner boils. Don’t take a chance on it, some Pilsner malts will produce DMS if not boiled 90 mins. It’s cheap insurance, you cannot remove DMS by aging, it will be a dumper.

Which malt was it? I never had this and I did really short boils sometimes... Maybe some maltsters are different?

 

[VikeMan]

Which malt was it? I never had this and I did really short boils sometimes... Maybe some maltsters are different?

Malts have various amounts of DMS precursor. And DMS boil off varies from system to system, even if the boils are the same length. And then there's (longer or shorter) cooling times, where some remaining DMS precursor can be converted to DMS, which doesn't boil off at the lower temps. The old "90 minutes for pilsner and 60 minutes for others" is a nice rule of thumb, but it's not the end of the story.

 

[dmtaylor]

The only time I got DMS in my homebrew was when I tried to get it on purpose, short boil with the lid on, and even then, none of my trained buddies could detect it so I might have even been imagining it.

 

[Miraculix]

Malts have various amounts of DMS precursor. And DMS boil off varies from system to system, even if the boils are the same length. And then there's (longer or shorter) cooling times, where some remaining DMS precursor can be converted to DMS, which doesn't boil off at the lower temps. The old "90 minutes for pilsner and 60 minutes for others" is a nice rule of thumb, but it's not the end of the story.

Then my brews would have been the worst DMS bombs ever, 15 minute boils with half closed lid and over night chill with the lid closed.... still no DMS detected. My guess is that there are some maltsters who might end up with malt with a lot of precursors but the majority does not.

 

[VikeMan]

^ As I said, "Malts have various amounts of DMS precursor."

Also, I left out, but probably should mention, that flavor thresholds vary from person to person. Personally, DMS is a low-ish threshold for me. I can easily smell it during the boil.

 

[RePete]

What's the warmest anyone has used M54, successfully or otherwise? I had a little leftover wort from an amber ale, so I'm trying some of it with M54 at 26C/79F.

How did it do? I grabbed a couple packs of M54 on my last visit to the LBHS. The packet gives a fermentation range of 64-68*F, which is fairly narrow. So 79* is quite a bit over. I worried because my fermenter reads under 60* now. I probably should have gone with the 34/70 again, but wanted to try this. So, I’ll see how it works at around 58*. I pitched a batch a couple weeks ago, and have been letting it finish under pressure in the keg with a spunding valve.

My question is whether the 64-68* range given on the M54 packet is just an ideal range? The ideal range on the 34/70 packet is 54-59*, but an overall range of 48-72*? So M54 might handle more like 58-82*?

 

[dmtaylor]

How did it do? I grabbed a couple packs of M54 on my last visit to the LBHS. The packet gives a fermentation range of 64-68*F, which is fairly narrow. So 79* is quite a bit over. I worried because my fermenter reads under 60* now. I probably should have gone with the 34/70 again, but wanted to try this. So, I’ll see how it works at around 58*. I pitched a batch of a couple weeks ago, and have been letting it finish under pressure in the keg with a spunding valve.

My question is whether the 64-68* range given on the M54 packet is just an ideal range? The ideal range on the 34/70 packet is 54-59*, but an overall range of 48-72*? So M54 might handle more like 58-82*?

M54 is almost definitely just repackaged K-97, which has a recommended temperature range of 59-68 F.

 

[Miraculix]

How did it do? I grabbed a couple packs of M54 on my last visit to the LBHS. The packet gives a fermentation range of 64-68*F, which is fairly narrow. So 79* is quite a bit over. I worried because my fermenter reads under 60* now. I probably should have gone with the 34/70 again, but wanted to try this. So, I’ll see how it works at around 58*. I pitched a batch of a couple weeks ago, and have been letting it finish under pressure in the keg with a spunding valve.

My question is whether the 64-68* range given on the M54 packet is just an ideal range? The ideal range on the 34/70 packet is 54-59*, but an overall range of 48-72*? So M54 might handle more like 58-82*?

I pushed it above 30c. Beer was fine, maybe a tiny bit fruity.

 

[RePete]

I pushed it above 30c. Beer was fine, maybe a tiny bit fruity.

I did an initial tasting of this batch, and thought it had a fruity taste. Not really what I was going for on this one. I'll put the keg in the fridge, let it sit a few weeks, and try again.

 

[Miraculix]

I did an initial tasting of this batch, and thought it had a fruity taste. Not really what I was going for on this one. I'll put the keg in the fridge, let it sit a few weeks, and try again.

The good thing is, there were no fusels involved. Other yeasts would have killed you with the headache at that temperature.... I really like that yeast. The only thing is, I got a few times an almost stuck fermentation at the end, meaning that the yeast continued to ferment, but reaaaaallyyyyy slwoly at the end. Ended up with overcarbonated bottles. I think it was because of underpitching, it needs two packs for 5 gallons.

 

[Miraculix]

Long time since the last warm lager, but today I pitched a packet of 3470 (had that one since ages in my fridge, best by date was June 2018.... Hahaha, should be fine) into my lower og (1.037) American pilsener type-ish of beer. I will bring it to the basement where it can do it's thing at about 15c ambient temperature. Little water bath to keep fermentation temps low.

So it's a half warm lager I guess.

Ariana for bittering to 32ibus (wort was actually a bit too bitter for my liking, let's see), Simcoe and Chinook dry, 75% pilsener, 20% Vienna and 5% spelt flour.

Mashed for an hour at 63c and mashout for 15 minutes at 76c.

Sulfate around 120 ppm and chloride around 80ppm.

Pretty simple, so it should be good!

I bottled this today, after a 2 day dry hop with simcoe and chinook. FG was 1.008, about 3,8% abv, which is right where I wanted it to be. Nice session strength! The beer smelled amazing! Alcohol free week this week, so no taste test unfortunately, but I have high hopes for this one. If this is going to taste great then I´m pretty sure that my theory about late additions might be actually true (that they are really unnecessary if dry hopped).

The 3470 Yeast Cake was pretty solid, I was quite surprised to see this, after all it is a lager yeast and supposed to be powdery. Let's see how it is going to behave in the bottle.

 

[ebbelwoi]

How did it do? I grabbed a couple packs of M54 on my last visit to the LBHS. The packet gives a fermentation range of 64-68*F, which is fairly narrow. So 79* is quite a bit over. I worried because my fermenter reads under 60* now. I probably should have gone with the 34/70 again, but wanted to try this. So, I’ll see how it works at around 58*. I pitched a batch a couple weeks ago, and have been letting it finish under pressure in the keg with a spunding valve.

My question is whether the 64-68* range given on the M54 packet is just an ideal range? The ideal range on the 34/70 packet is 54-59*, but an overall range of 48-72*? So M54 might handle more like 58-82*?

I liked the results.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/page-36#post-8995415

 

[Birrofilo]

The 3470 Yeast Cake was pretty solid, I was quite surprised to see this, after all it is a lager yeast and supposed to be powdery. Let's see how it is going to behave in the bottle.

Very interesting. Did you cold-crash, did you do some diacetyl rest? What was the fermenting schedule? Did the beer come out fairly clean or was it cloudy notwithstanding the compact yeast cake?

I don't have the possibility to refrigerate and I will be planning soon some cold lager but I would like some clear lager.

 

[Miraculix]

Very interesting. Did you cold-crash, did you do some diacetyl rest? What was the fermenting schedule? Did the beer come out fairly clean or was it cloudy notwithstanding the compact yeast cake?

I don't have the possibility to refrigerate and I will be planning soon some cold lager but I would like some clear lager.

About 12 days @15 degrees, then room tempereature for two days including the dry hopping. The beer was not 100% clear, but it was not very cloudy. I guess one more week and it would have been perfectly clear.

But worth mentioning that the OG was 1,038 and these lower OG beers tend to clear better than the higher ones, based on my experience.

 

[seatazzz]

Brewed up another batch of my Crystal lager this morning, and racked it directly onto the last one's yeast cake (S23). Few hours later and it's going great guns. Will be interesting to see how this one turns out; I dropped my (what I thought) bittering hop bag at 60, only to discover 45 minutes later that I had added the marbles for weight but no hops!! Dropped them in at 25, then did the usual 10, 5, and flameout additions. So nothing but late Crystal hop additions in this one. Can't wait, it will be beer.