Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Miraculix]

View attachment 571657 So here is my first lager, a Piss Poor Pilsner with 34/70. I let it ride for three weeks around 63-65. It was warmer ~69(nice) during high krausen. I racked to a keg and fined with gelatin last Saturday and it has been clearing steadily. It is not terrible, but I don’t have a lot of experience drinking lagers so idk if it is good or bad. There is nothing off putting about it and it makes for a nice light lawn mower beer. I will definitely brew another warm fermented lager!

Sounds a bit boring, sounds like a typical lager

I see Lager a bit like a blank and white canvas. There is not much going on in itself, but it can be a great base to be creative. Maybe some dry hops next time? Or a bit of Vienna and/or Munich? Or something to turn it red?

 

[Sbe2]

Sounds a bit boring, sounds like a typical lager

I see Lager a bit like a blank and white canvas. There is not much going on in itself, but it can be a great base to be creative. Maybe some dry hops next time? Or a bit of Vienna and/or Munich? Or something to turn it red?

Dry hopped with hallertau this round and may add some Vienna next time.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I've been looking through this thread and I wonder: has anyone tried a higher gravity lager like a doppelbock? Could be an interesting project.......

 

[makisupapolice14]

I'm brewing a 6 gallon red -ale or lager tomorrow with projected og of 1.069. Debating between using us-05 or 34/70. I've fermented 34-70 in the low to mid 60s before in lower gravity beers with 2 packets and it worked out well. How many packets of 34/70 would you use for this beer?

 

[Miraculix]

I'm brewing a 6 gallon red -ale or lager tomorrow with projected og of 1.069. Debating between using us-05 or 34/70. I've fermented 34-70 in the low to mid 60s before in lower gravity beers with 2 packets and it worked out well. How many packets of 34/70 would you use for this beer?

I would use 3 or 4 packs, but never did a stronger lager.

 

[z-bob]

I would use one packet and make a starter. (but I haven't used 34/70 yet)

 

[MakeDankBeer]

I've been looking through this thread and I wonder: has anyone tried a higher gravity lager like a doppelbock? Could be an interesting project.......

I have one fermenting with an og of 1.090, last time I checked it was right around 8%abv, gonna check it in a couple days, projected its supposed to finish around 9-10%

 

[applescrap]

I know I'm probably under pitching, but at that gravity one would do imo. I went back and reviewed the two brulosophy experiments on pitching. One experiment they under pitch a similar gravity batch with 3470 and they also over pitch it. The other is with us 05. Both showed a lack of statistical significance. Since the lager experiment was done with 3470 I think it shows that one packet would be fine and 2 would be all that is needed for certain. Note on the 3470 test the single vial of liquid started nearly 3 days after the starter and was less vigorous in fermenting. Yet they finished at the same gravity and were nearly indistinguishable by those who tasted it. Ymmv and you dont have to live by any of this, but hopefully it makes one a little less concerned about over pitching.

 

[Miraculix]

I know I'm probably under pitching, but at that gravity one would do imo. I went back and reviewed the two brulosophy experiments on pitching. One experiment they under pitch a similar gravity batch with 3470 and they also over pitch it. The other is with us 05. Both showed a lack of statistical significance. Since the lager experiment was done with 3470 I think it shows that one packet would be fine and 2 would be all that is needed for certain. Note on the 3470 test the single vial of liquid started nearly 3 days after the starter and was less vigorous in fermenting. Yet they finished at the same gravity and were nearly indistinguishable by those who tasted it. Ymmv and you dont have to live by any of this, but hopefully it makes one a little less concerned about over pitching.

I agree. The only reason I like to pitch as much as possible is to get things going quickly and to finish quickly, so that nothing else can start growing in the wort

Btw. I do not really believe that overpitching is possible... but not enough healthy yeast might get risky.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Let's see if I have this right:

German strain 34/70 (presumably WLP830, Wy2124, OYL-114)
Swiss strain S-189 (presumably WLP885)
California Common strain (Wy2112, WLP810, M54, L05)
Ale strain posing as a lager strain WLP800

-All these are clean up into the low 70s without issue except for possible peach from dried yeast.
-Differences among these strains are pretty minor if at all.
-Clarity can be obtained via some combination of time, gelatin, and cold crashing.
-Ale pitch rate when warm.

Did I miss anything?

 

[applescrap]

Yes, sounds great. Not sure about yeast strains, history. oh man tossing them back tonight. Here's a pic of I don't know three or four of them and they are progressing towards getting clear.

 

[Miraculix]

Let's see if I have this right:

German strain 34/70 (presumably WLP830, Wy2124, OYL-114)
Swiss strain S-189 (presumably WLP885)
California Common strain (Wy2112, WLP810, M54, L05)
Ale strain posing as a lager strain WLP800

-All these are clean up into the low 70s without issue except for possible peach from dried yeast.
-Differences among these strains are pretty minor if at all.
-Clarity can be obtained via some combination of time, gelatin, and cold crashing.
-Ale pitch rate when warm.

Did I miss anything?

I wouldn't agree on the similarity. There is a huge difference between 3470 and California lager and a minor difference between cl and 800.

I also never experienced, nor read about peach flavour from dry lager yeast. 3470 can give clove when fermented warm. But nobody knows why and when.

I bottled three cl based warm lagers yesterday. The goal was to find out if I can taste a difference with and without water treatment and if I like melanoidin malt.

Great results, I even have a bit of sulfur from the California lager, best warm lager yeast so far.

I can taste the water treatment in a positive way and melanoidin malt gives the beer exactly what I was missing in my previous warm lagers. Three brews, mission accomplished.

Happy days!!!

 

[Upthewazzu]

I recently used S-23 in an amber lager...pitched at 58°, then raised to 65° over the course of 2 weeks. Turned out great after a 3 week lagering phase.

In general, I think that yeast tastes better in a darker style beer.

Hard to tell in this pic, but it's almost crystal clear. This is after 2 weeks in the fermenter and 3 weeks of lagering. I used gelatin before kegging. I wasn't a fan at first, and I still think its a tad too roasty (gee, I wonder if that was the roasted barlery. derp) but its been a crowd pleaser.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I also never experienced, nor read about peach flavour from dry lager yeast

On this thread.

Howdy. So I did the warm W34/70. Warm being pitch and hold at 60°F +/-1° for 10 days, allow sit at ambient 65°-68° 10 more days, sit in cold space for 4 weeks at temps between 27° and 40°.

It is, in a word, peachy. Not in a good way. Like I dumped peach extract in it. Normal? Should I have kept at 60° for a couple, two, tree weeks?

Recipe from @bwarbiany :
4.25# Munich
2.75# Bel Pilsen
2.75# Vienna
Mash 155 for 75m boil 60m, 5.0 gal into fermenter, BIAB, 1.051OG 1.013FG

Any chance you could describe the differences between 34/70, california, and 800? Or is it just the sulfur?

What was your preferred water profile? If you don't mind me asking.

Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

On this thread.


Any chance you could describe the differences between 34/70, california, and 800? Or is it just the sulfur?

What was your preferred water profile? If you don't mind me asking.

Thanks!

Oh, overread this probably!

3470 is my least favourite as it stays in suspension forever (without cold crashing) and some beers have some off flavours sometimes... nobody really knows why and when the off flavours happen. I myself had clove, which was actually quite tasty, but not what you want when you are looking for a clean lager profile. Others had no negative side effects at all so 3470 seems a bit unpredictable when fermented warm.

I have still 3 packs flying around, so I HAVE to use it again

My 800 beers had a TINY amount of ale flavour in it when fermented warm, but were in general very clean. Not much of a lager flavour and not much of ale flavour either... so I would recommend it. But it is liquid and that is unconvinient.

California Lager from MJ is the best imo. It is very very clean, floccs well (compared to the others) and has this particular lager flavour which is very nice. I would really recommend MJ California lager over all the others.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My preferred homebrew store doesn't have MJ yeast, so I'd need to try something else (they have 2112 and 810).

Clove flavor is a phenol and really shouldn't be coming from a POF- yeast, so there's likely something else making it.
Did you do a step mash?
I'm going to speculate.... The yeast drying process occasionally introduces contaminants. This explains why the off-flavors are rare and unpredictable, and why they only seem to occur in dry yeast.
I could be wrong, but there has to be some explanation.

 

[Miraculix]

My preferred homebrew store doesn't have MJ yeast, so I'd need to try something else (they have 2112 and 810).

Clove flavor is a phenol and really shouldn't be coming from a POF- yeast, so there's likely something else making it.
Did you do a step mash?
I'm going to speculate.... The yeast drying process occasionally introduces contaminants. This explains why the off-flavors are rare and unpredictable, and why they only seem to occur in dry yeast.
I could be wrong, but there has to be some explanation.

Don't remember the mash, but it was certainly only one rest. It was a raw ale, maybe the elevated protein content made the yeast go clovey.

I don't think that there is a general problem with dry yeast. It is this particular yeast that sometimes does weird stuff.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The fact that it was a raw ale points toward contamination.

Quick googling for 34/70 yeast with either peach or clove really doesn't reveal any trend for this strain to produce such off-flavors. ... And again it's pretty unlikely for it to be able to produce the clove flavor.

IF it was a contamination that would also explain the lack of clarity in that batch. Wild yeasts are typically POF+ (i.e. able to produce clove flavor) and also poor at flocculating.

Edit: forget what I said about yeast drying possibly introducing contaminants. There's no info available to back that up.

 

[balrog]

I am not above admitting the peach I got could possibly have been infection. But no matter the cause, the result was suboptimal. The next batch, same grist/mash/process I used Wyeast 2124 and it was ... ok. Nothing to go to war with Troy over. I have a MJ54 packet to try next time.

 

[Miraculix]

The fact that it was a raw ale points toward contamination.

Quick googling for 34/70 yeast with either peach or clove really doesn't reveal any trend for this strain to produce such off-flavors. ... And again it's pretty unlikely for it to be able to produce the clove flavor.

IF it was a contamination that would also explain the lack of clarity in that batch. Wild yeasts are typically POF+ (i.e. able to produce clove flavor) and also poor at flocculating.

Edit: forget what I said about yeast drying possibly introducing contaminants. There's no info available to back that up.

Might be, we will never know. The poor flocculation is well documented by all people using it, so that was normal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Revision!

German strain 34/70, Wy2124, WLP830, OYL114
Swiss strain S-189, WLP885
California Common strain Wy2112, WLP810, M54, L05
Ale strain posing as a lager strain WLP800

-All these are clean up into the low 70s (~22°C) (reports of off-flavors with 34/70 possibly from contamination)
-Ale pitch rate when warm.
-German and possibly Swiss strains tend to require cold crashing for clarity.
-Cali common may produce slight sulfur note typical in some lagers.
-Possible slight ale flavor from WLP800 at warm temperature (clean at 66°F [19°C], see brulosophy).

Hope this helps newcomers to the warm lager idea. I know it'll help me. Thanks to everyone on this thread!
Cheers

 

[cmac62]

So this weekend I brewed a Juniper Rye Bock, it is in the fermenter at 70ish in my dining room. I used the 3470, two packets rehydrated). No activity as yet this a.m. Does it start slow? Anyway I'm looking to see if this is a good thing. This beer is for a Xmas swap on HBT. If it doesn't workout I'll have to brew the final beer more traditionally.

 

[catdaddy66]

I bottled my steam beer tonight. Absolutely excited to taste it (after checking the hydrometer sample) in a couple of weeks. Went from 1.046 down to 1.011, which is 4.6% abv. It is better than I expected as I have heard that wlp800 is a finicky yeast to ferment at higher temps than recommended.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Checked the gravity sunday, looks like wlp840 took it from 1.090 down to 1.022 in two weeks, then stalled out. I went down the lhbs picked up some wlp099 super high gravity pitched it, slow bubbles in airlock last the 3 days.

It tasted okay, pretty sweet full body. We'll see how much wlp099 thins it out in a week or so.

 

[Miraculix]

Checked the gravity sunday, looks like wlp840 took it from 1.090 down to 1.022 in two weeks, then stalled out. I went down the lhbs picked up some wlp099 super high gravity pitched it, slow bubbles in airlock last the 3 days.

It tasted okay, pretty sweet full body. We'll see how much wlp099 thins it out in a week or so.

About 75% attenuation? I think this is not a bad result for a beer that strong. I wouldn't have pitched the extra yeast... but personal tastes are certainly different.

 

[Ninoid]

I today test first bottle of my Dark Lager (it should have been red) fermented with W-34/70 on 26'C after 11 days in bottles (10 warm and one in fridge) and I was pretty surprised to be cleaned and stabilized. It has a slight roasty character and a pleasant bitterness. The smell is also on roasted malt and there are no residues of yeast in the bottle. Foam is good.

 

[seatazzz]

My third batch of warm fermented lager (on 34/70 3rd generation) is about ready to keg 13 days from brewing. Just gave it a taste, used Warrior as the bitter and Columbus & Amarillo as late hops. It's got an interesting flavor, a bit sharp but not bad. Will get kegged this weekend if our water leak gets fixed, and will brew another batch of the same using the yeast again. This time, instead of decanting the yeast into jars, will just pour it into the carboy I plan to use to ferment the new one to save time, and rack right onto it. As a bonus, my newer plastic carboy fits great into the old milk crate I've got, and said milk crate fits perfectly into the newly repurposed chest freezer/fermentation chamber. So this one won't be fermented "warm" but at actual lager temps. Can't wait.

 

[applescrap]

Here is the bock. I try to convince myself its better or has changed, but i wonder in a blind taste test if i could tell 10 day old from now.

 

[lagermeister1]

i made a Maibock 2 weeks ago fermented with 3470 at room temp 72F in my fermentasaurus under 10psi of pressure. i was drinking it yesturday and am very surprised how good it is already. my og was 1.074 and it finished up at 1.014. i have won an award with this recipe in the past fermenting cold with white labs german lager so i am very familiar on how it should taste and it is almost right there already. i am not able to cold crash but i did fine with gelatin and it seems to be starting to clear well. next batch will be a munich helles export with this same yeast. very excited about these warm fermented lagers also because my temp controlled chest freezer stopped working a few months ago.

 

[Ninoid]

i made a Maibock 2 weeks ago fermented with 3470 at room temp 72F in my fermentasaurus under 10psi of pressure. i was drinking it yesturday and am very surprised how good it is already. my og was 1.074 and it finished up at 1.014. i have won an award with this recipe in the past fermenting cold with white labs german lager so i am very familiar on how it should taste and it is almost right there already. i am not able to cold crash but i did fine with gelatin and it seems to be starting to clear well. next batch will be a munich helles export with this same yeast. very excited about these warm fermented lagers also because my temp controlled chest freezer stopped working a few months ago.

Super red color. Do you write recipe?

 

[lagermeister1]

Super red color. Do you write recipe?

it is pretty basic. 65% german pilsner 32% dark german munich 3% Melanoidin.
standard infusion mash at 155F
just one bittering hop addition to get it to 25 ibu

i think i use dark munich and the melanoidin gave it the red color

 

[MakeDankBeer]

About 75% attenuation? I think this is not a bad result for a beer that strong. I wouldn't have pitched the extra yeast... but personal tastes are certainly different.

Well, it did what it was supposed too, finial gravity is 1.000. so somewhere around 11.5%

 

[Miraculix]

Well, it did what it was supposed too, finial gravity is 1.000. so somewhere around 11.5%

Oomph, that is a strong beer! And a dry one as well! Let us know how it tastes please.

 

[jaybo]

My Czech Pilsner is doing great at 60 degrees. This whole thread got me to thinking: what if I brewed a schwartzbier using this method? I'm thinking about this recipe:
8 lb Pilsner malt
1 lb carafa II
1/2 lb cara pils
1 oz hallertau @60 minutes
1 oz Tettnanger @5 minutes
I think I'm gonna order the ingredients as soon as I free up a fermentor and give it a go. Anybody have anything that I might want to add to this recipe?

 

[Miraculix]

My Czech Pilsner is doing great at 60 degrees. This whole thread got me to thinking: what if I brewed a schwartzbier using this method? I'm thinking about this recipe:
8 lb Pilsner malt
1 lb carafa II
1/2 lb cara pils
1 oz hallertau @60 minutes
1 oz Tettnanger @5 minutes
I think I'm gonna order the ingredients as soon as I free up a fermentor and give it a go. Anybody have anything that I might want to add to this recipe?

If you want to go for a German Schwarzbier, this would be too much roasted malt. All the German recipes I have seen keep it between about 5 and 7 % of the grist.

It is usually not as dark as a stout. Otherwise it looks all right. I have no experience with tetnanger and would therefore go for mittelfrüh or saaz as the late addition, but just because I know it.

Edit: and as Schwarzbier is not about too much roast, you might want to consider cold steeping the dark malt over night. I recently did it with a ten % carafa special 2 Schwarzbier, overdoing it on purpose, to see what happens. Got quite little roast while being as dark as Guinness.

 

[jaybo]

If you want to go for a German Schwarzbier, this would be too much roasted malt. All the German recipes I have seen keep it between about 5 and 7 % of the grist.

It is usually not as dark as a stout. Otherwise it looks all right. I have no experience with tetnanger and would therefore go for mittelfrüh or saaz as the late addition, but just because I know it.

Edit: and as Schwarzbier is not about too much roast, you might want to consider cold steeping the dark malt over night. I recently did it with a ten % carafa special 2 Schwarzbier, overdoing it on purpose, to see what happens. Got quite little roast while being as dark as Guinness.

Yeah, now that you mention it, it does sound too high. I'll probably only use about half that amount of carafa and see where that gets me. As far as the hops go; Tettnanger is my go to for flavoring German pilsners (I use it as a flavor addition in my Bitburger clone). Saaz sounds like a good one, as well.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, now that you mention it, it does sound too high. I'll probably only use about half that amount of carafa and see where that gets me. As far as the hops go; Tettnanger is my go to for flavoring German pilsners (I use it as a flavor addition in my Bitburger clone). Saaz sounds like a good one, as well.

You might want to swap the carapils for about 20%-30% Munich malt. I have seen this in a very good Koestritzer clone which I used as a base for my warm Schwarzbier mentioned before.

 

[Manufacturedevolution]

I did a Munich Helles on 5/12 cooled wort to 64 and pitched a pack of 34/70. Fermented at ~70 ambient. It's been in the keg for a little over a week now. I am impressed with how clean it turned out. That was probably the most turbulent fermentation I've ever seen. Like a tornado in the fermentor! I used the slurry in a Dopplebock and "small bock" on the 26th. I'm excited to see if they turn out as good.

 

[jaybo]

I just took a gravity read on my Pilsner. 1.010! I fermented it at 60 degrees, so I'm raising the temperature to 65-68 ish for a d-rest for a few days. The sample was classic creamed corn flavor, with a LOT of yeast still in suspension.

 

[thehaze]

What is the highest temperature anyone has fermented SafLager W-34/70?