Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[TANSTAAFB]

This just gets more and more interesting as the data from DNA sequencing continue to roll out! As I was reading the flavor description I was thinking "Damn, wish I had used WLP051 in my Bourbon Barrel Coffee Pale ale, the cherry, apple, and residual sugars would have been perfect!" Then I see BRY-97...This is the first beer I've ever made using that yeast! Here's to happy accidents [emoji482]

 

[seatazzz]

Last update on my 34/70 fermented Blonde lager before it goes in the keg tomorrow and is relegated to the back row of the fridge for a couple of weeks lagering. Banana/clove-y flavor has mellowed quite a bit, in looking for something to compare it to I came up with fresh Coors, but on steroids. Good flavor but with a bit more....something...can't describe it. Not maltiness, not crispness, it just tastes like really good beer. Definitely does NOT taste like an ale. Should have this one ready to tap by Memorial Day, it won't last long I'm thinking.

 

[Miraculix]

Last update on my 34/70 fermented Blonde lager before it goes in the keg tomorrow and is relegated to the back row of the fridge for a couple of weeks lagering. Banana/clove-y flavor has mellowed quite a bit, in looking for something to compare it to I came up with fresh Coors, but on steroids. Good flavor but with a bit more....something...can't describe it. Not maltiness, not crispness, it just tastes like really good beer. Definitely does NOT taste like an ale. Should have this one ready to tap by Memorial Day, it won't last long I'm thinking.

I think I know what you mean. Coors also tastes to me a bit like banana. I actually like this beer

Still have two packs of 34 70 in the fridge, I think I will go a similar route with it, once I am going to use it. But the time it needs to clear is really a pain. Mangrove Jack's Californian lager is so much nicer...

 

[seatazzz]

I think I know what you mean. Coors also tastes to me a bit like banana. I actually like this beer

Still have two packs of 34 70 in the fridge, I think I will go a similar route with it, once I am going to use it. But the time it needs to clear is really a pain. Mangrove Jack's Californian lager is so much nicer...

I too thought it would take a while to clear, but it's coming out of the carboy clear as pretty yellow glass. Now to see if I can keg it without stirring it up too much...

 

[catdaddy66]

Well, hell... Just went to the lhbs to get my grist ground but it was closed. Soooooo... No brewing this weekend.

That's ok as it gives me time to drink some!

I was about to do a steam beer with 9# 2-row and a lb ea of Munich and C-60. I planned on cascade hops to 37 IBU and wlp800. That's what I will make a week from now on National homebrew day!

 

[Miraculix]

Well, hell... Just went to the lhbs to get my grist ground but it was closed. Soooooo... No brewing this weekend.

That's ok as it gives me time to drink some!

I was about to do a steam beer with 9# 2-row and a lb ea of Munich and C-60. I planned on cascade hops to 37 IBU and wlp800. That's what I will make a week from now on National homebrew day!

You will be positively disappointed with your 800 steam beer. It won't give you the typical steam beer off flavours but taste like a really clean ale instead. Will be great!

 

[Sbe2]

So just bought my ingredients today for my first lager.

Recipe:

10# Avangard Pilsen
1/2# Carafoam

*mash 148

1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 90 min (Not sure if 90 min boil needed, but I do not want DMS)
1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 20 min
1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 5 min

2 pkgs 34/70 pitched at 60f
ferment @ basement temp(~60f) for three weeks

2 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA Dry Hop last week

Keg after three weeks and place in keezer, enjoy after carbed



Questions:

-Will it be ready to drink in 4 weeks?

-What type of water profile do you all use? I brew IPAs and Cream Ales mostly, and looking to get a dry crisp beer if possible. I will be starting with RO water.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This just gets more and more interesting as the data from DNA sequencing continue to roll out! As I was reading the flavor description I was thinking "Damn, wish I had used WLP051 in my Bourbon Barrel Coffee Pale ale, the cherry, apple, and residual sugars would have been perfect!" Then I see BRY-97...This is the first beer I've ever made using that yeast! Here's to happy accidents [emoji482]

It's worth emphasising that the link between WLP051 and BRY-97 doesn't come from DNA (at present), it's just a traditional link that's been swirling round the internet for years via their link to Anchor.

Going OT, this could have implications for what Nottingham is. It's believed to be ~70% "lager" yeast, but that "lager" component seems to be more temperature tolerant (as in surviving at 37C) than is normal for yeast. The latest sequencing data confirms that part of the Nottingham blend is very similar to WLP039 East Midlands. I'd assumed that the lager component was likely to be Diamond Lager as that's the only lager kicking round the Lallemand factory, but maybe Nottingham is actually 2:1 BRY-97:"WLP039"? Pure speculation - for now!

 

[SanPancho]

I recently cloned Sam Adams Black Lager, which is about 13g of carbs per beer. That was tasty.

Can i ask you to share the clone recipe? Never been one to do clones but that black is one of my all time favorites. Or at least it used to be, haven’t had it in a while and recipes do change sometimes. Still like to give it a go.

 

[SanPancho]

Frohberg yeasts are generally German(ic), whereas Saaz yeasts are generally Czech (or from Carsberg). 34/70 is the archetypal Frohberg yeast, and Frohberg yeasts have more ale DNA so you might expect them to prefer warmer temperatures but at the moment we don't really have enough datapoints to be confident in generalising.

So the danish lager wlp850 would be a saaz type i assume? Do we know anything about wlp940 from Mexico? Id assume germanic giving the brewing history, but it doesn’t seem to like warm temps.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So the danish lager wlp850 would be a saaz type i assume? Do we know anything about wlp940 from Mexico? Id assume germanic giving the brewing history, but it doesn’t seem to like warm temps.

Assuming WLP850 is from Carlsberg then yes, it should be a Saaz type.

Probably can't make too many assumptions about somewhere like Mexico - you have to remember that the Carlsberg labs were seen as the home of "modern" lager brewing, and many countries with no lager tradition wanted to import Carlsberg's brewing techniques en masse, as that was the benchmark. So it may well be a Saaz type - one way is just to see how quickly it grows at cold temperatures compared to a known Saaz and Frohberg type, but hopefully we should have more definite information in the coming weeks...

 

[seatazzz]

So I brewed up another batch of lager today, using the washed yeast (34/70) from the last batch....holy crap. Fresh, this yeast took almost 48 hours to take off. 5 hours after pitching the slurry I've got the start of krausen and tons of action down below. Temperature steady at 57, finally found my old digital oven thermometer so the sanitized probe can stay in the beer. Definitely going to keep this yeast around!

 

[seatazzz]

So just bought my ingredients today for my first lager.

Recipe:

10# Avangard Pilsen
1/2# Carafoam

*mash 148

1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 90 min (Not sure if 90 min boil needed, but I do not want DMS)
1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 20 min
1 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA 5 min

2 pkgs 34/70 pitched at 60f
ferment @ basement temp(~60f) for three weeks

2 oz German Hallertau 3.6 AA Dry Hop last week

Keg after three weeks and place in keezer, enjoy after carbed



Questions:

-Will it be ready to drink in 4 weeks?

-What type of water profile do you all use? I brew IPAs and Cream Ales mostly, and looking to get a dry crisp beer if possible. I will be starting with RO water.

I'm only on my second lager, so I'm a pro now (LOL). Looks like a good recipe to me, although I don't think lagers are generally dry-hopped.

To answer your questions:

1. Depends on you. As long as fermentation is complete, it should be fine. My first was in primary for two weeks, and now that it's kegged will sit in the kegerator a couple of weeks for conditioning. However, the flavor right now is pretty good and drinkable; if I needed it on tap I could carb and drink without a quibble.

2. I use my tap water, treated with 2 campden tablets (yes overkill, they're cheap). I also add 2tsp of Burton's brewing salts to the mash, my pH has been steady at 5.3 over the three batches since I've started using them. You might want to try Bru'n Water to get the correct water profile.

 

[Miraculix]

Dey hopping worth noble hops is the best! Go for it!

 

[Sbe2]

I'm only on my second lager, so I'm a pro now (LOL). Looks like a good recipe to me, although I don't think lagers are generally dry-hopped.

To answer your questions:

1. Depends on you. As long as fermentation is complete, it should be fine. My first was in primary for two weeks, and now that it's kegged will sit in the kegerator a couple of weeks for conditioning. However, the flavor right now is pretty good and drinkable; if I needed it on tap I could carb and drink without a quibble.

2. I use my tap water, treated with 2 campden tablets (yes overkill, they're cheap). I also add 2tsp of Burton's brewing salts to the mash, my pH has been steady at 5.3 over the three batches since I've started using them. You might want to try Bru'n Water to get the correct water profile.

I can’t resist dry hopping with my IPA background.

I wound up using the yellow dry profile on Bru’n water.

I will probably tap it Memorial Day weekend and see how it evolves from there.

 

[seatazzz]

Ok guys, this should probably be in the "Fermentation & Yeast" forum, but here goes...so I washed the 34/70 yeast I used from my first (and should be good) lager. Out the gate the first one took 48 hours to take off. The second one, on washed yeast, started going crazy after less than 6 hours. I've done some Google searching on overpitching lagers, but want to have your opinions. Temperature is steady at 60 in my modified swamp cooler. Pitched it yesterday at 11am or so, and today at 5:30pm it's still going insane. Think I'll be okay?

 

[Miraculix]

Ok guys, this should probably be in the "Fermentation & Yeast" forum, but here goes...so I washed the 34/70 yeast I used from my first (and should be good) lager. Out the gate the first one took 48 hours to take off. The second one, on washed yeast, started going crazy after less than 6 hours. I've done some Google searching on overpitching lagers, but want to have your opinions. Temperature is steady at 60 in my modified swamp cooler. Pitched it yesterday at 11am or so, and today at 5:30pm it's still going insane. Think I'll be okay?

There is not really such a thing as overpitching. It just speeds up the process and reduces the chance of having off flavours, but will cost more money because you need to buy more yeast (not in your case obviously).

Next time, don't "wash" the yeast. "Washing" has zero benefits and a lot of negative side effects.

Just store the slurry with a bit of beer on top of it. When pitching, decant the beer and pitch the slurry, job done!

 

[Sbe2]

So my temp of the beer is staying around 66f. Should I try to cool it down or will I be ok? I am using 3470

 

[Miraculix]

So my temp of the beer is staying around 66f. Should I try to cool it down or will I be ok? I am using 3470

Depends on what you are after. But as you are asking in the warm fermented lager thread the obvious answer is, don't cool it down.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

hello all, I've read through most of this but I'm looking for some suggestions. I'm planning an American lager, I would like to use wlp 840 and then wlp099 high gravity after a week a two. I'm doing a 1 gallon test batch,

2lb 2row
1.75lb of 6row
1(?)lb of corn flaked
1oz crystal at 60
1oz of crystal at 5min

can I get away with fermenting this around 60-65°?
will my plan work with pitching wlp099 after ?

 

[seatazzz]

So I've always been a proponent of the "taste your beer all throughout the process" school of thought. With nothing better to do tonight (yeah, laundry, chores, pfffft) I just pulled a seriously-not-quite-carbed-but-chilled glass of my first lager. And I am just WOW. The mouthfeel is awesome, the smell is malty, and the flavor is great. I really want to let this one condition a few more weeks, but I don't know if I can restrain myself. Once it's carbed it will be even better. We don't buy a lot of commercial lagers (except Coors Light if I've got nothing on tap), so I don't have much to compare it to. All I know is this is something GOOD. It's a bit hazy still but I don't give a rip. Thanks to all on this thread for the great information! Can't wait to see what number two (dropping its krausen now three days in, big hell yes to re-using that 34/70 yeast) tastes like. Hope this one lasts long enough until the next one is ready.

 

[seatazzz]

And after that post, I have bad news. That flavor I couldn't describe but kinda liked? Yep, diacetyl. Problem is, it's now in the keg, mostly carbed up. The flavor isn't TOO bad, but the smell is like someone dumped over-buttered movie popcorn in my beer. I will drink it as-is if I have to (I actually like it a lot), but is there something I can do now that it's chilled and carbed? Pretty sure it's due to underpitching, the second one I did with washed yeast from the first one does not have it and tastes great.

Was thinking of just leaving it in the kegerator, on 10 psi, and pulling the PRV every other day or so to help it vent off. Anyone have any help to offer?

 

[Sbe2]

And after that post, I have bad news. That flavor I couldn't describe but kinda liked? Yep, diacetyl. Problem is, it's now in the keg, mostly carbed up. The flavor isn't TOO bad, but the smell is like someone dumped over-buttered movie popcorn in my beer. I will drink it as-is if I have to (I actually like it a lot), but is there something I can do now that it's chilled and carbed? Pretty sure it's due to underpitching, the second one I did with washed yeast from the first one does not have it and tastes great.

Was thinking of just leaving it in the kegerator, on 10 psi, and pulling the PRV every other day or so to help it vent off. Anyone have any help to offer?

Take the keg out and let it warm up. There may be some yeast still alive and hopefully they can clean it up. Maybe keep it warm for a week. You could also try to pitch a little more yeast after it warms up.

 

[seatazzz]

Take the keg out and let it warm up. There may be some yeast still alive and hopefully they can clean it up. Maybe keep it warm for a week. You could also try to pitch a little more yeast after it warms up.

Yep, that was my other option. Darn it. Really wanted to start drinking it early. At least I know there's no o2 in there to mess it up. Off to reorganize the kegerator.

 

[applescrap]

Yes, rdwahahb

 

[catdaddy66]

Finally got my steam beer brewed. Right now I have wlp800 working it over at around 55-56° ambient. High hopes for this one!

 

[filthyastronaut]

News from the latest White Labs catalogue (hat-tip Wh over at Suregork's)

[WLP051 California V Ale] "is a big ester producer, showcasing notes of cherry and apple which compliment pale ales, blonde and brown ales. Even in pale ales, this strain’s characteristic lower attenuation results in a full-bodied malt forward beer. Typically leaves some residual, lager-like sulfur compounds in finished beer. Recent sequencing studies show that WLP051 belongs to Saccharomyces pastorianus species, the same hybrid species as most lager strains. However, this strain has been used to make ales for decades and was previously categorized as belonging to Saccharomyces cerevisiae."

So WLP051 is a lager yeast. Traditionally it's linked to Anchor Liberty, and hence to 1272 and BRY-97. Probably not the cleanest yeast to use, but it kinda highlights how fluid the definition of "lager" beer can be when people have been using a strain at ale temperatures in ale worts and never realised it was technically a lager yeast. Might explain its reputation for being a slow starter though.

Very interesting. With its ester profile I wonder if it would make a good Alt or Kolsch, even though it probably would never normally be considered for those styles.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

No ones tried wlp 840?

 

[applescrap]

Iirc, i did and it worked way better than 800, or maybe I have it backwards. Either way, i like 34/70 and dont use wl lager yeasts any more, but sometimes you get what you get depending on selection. I prefer to not buy wl yeasts if possible. Jmo.

 

[Miraculix]

Iirc, i did and it worked way better than 800, or maybe I have it backwards. Either way, i like 34/70 and dont use wl lager yeasts any more, but sometimes you get what you get depending on selection. I prefer to not buy wl yeasts if possible. Jmo.

I also prefer dry yeasts. But I think you might have it backwards because my 800 beers turned out very well!

But I like mangrove Jack's California lager even more, so that would be my choice.

 

[Ninoid]

I also prefer dry yeasts. But I think you might have it backwards because my 800 beers turned out very well!

But I like mangrove Jack's California lager even more, so that would be my choice.

I read this post, and also https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/the-lazy-german-raw-warm-fermented-pilsener.638088/ and I know that you have experience with that so I asked.
It is currently the third day and the airlock is still very active, and the smell is not very pleasant. The previous batch worked with US-05 at about 23'C and was not so hot, nor was the smell so intense.
As I like to experiment I wanted to make a lager, but at high temperature because I do not have a lagering chamber.
This beer should be similar to your No Boil / No Chill Pilsener fermented at high temperature.

 

[applescrap]

The lager yeast is really stinky.

 

[Ninoid]

The lager yeast is really stinky.

You have now calming me. I was already scared that it was not something that went wrong.

 

[Sbe2]

Yeah my basement had kind of a sulfur smell on day three of mine. I let it ride and told the wife not worry about the smell it was just the beer. She gave me a funny look but hey. It’s been about ten days after I pitched 34/70 and will probably keg it this weekend.

 

[applescrap]

Bock. Bock!

Have been really struggling with what to make. Ordinary Bitter just kept resonating with me, wife said light lime flavored lager. Aha, inspiration, but as I looked for recipes saw a comment that made me think twice. It said its cheaper to buy. While not entirely true, i agree i keep 8g of coors light on a sanke because its cheap and light. Settled on traditional bock. A little in grain and no munich, but zainasheff, and palmers recipe from classic styles. Substituted Simpsons double roast for muessedoerfer.

They didnt have 3470, of course, they never do. Decided to go with wlp800 and wyeast 2007 pilsen. I dont like the wl yeast but hopefully this time is better. Its warm in there should be done quick. Will cold crash and fine. Who am i kidding, i will be force carbing this and drinking it 7 or 8 days from now, cheers

 

[anotherbeerplease]

Pitched my just-brewed Oktoberfest lager into yeast cake at 75-80F. Crashed cooled asap to 50F. Fermented mostly low 50s and diacetyl rest in mid 60s on day 6. Haven't tried it yet, will report back if it's good or not. Oh yeah, I hop bursted noble Perle and Saaz hops at 4 min. I think it will be good but - who knows!

 

[applescrap]

Pitched my just-brewed Oktoberfest lager into yeast cake at 75-80F. Crashed cooled asap to 50F. Fermented mostly low 50s and diacetyl rest in mid 60s on day 6. Haven't tried it yet, will report back if it's good or not. Oh yeah, I hop bursted noble Perle and Saaz hops at 4 min. I think it will be good but - who knows!

This is the warm fermented lager thread. That sounds like a traditional method. It sounds lovely though.

 

[Ninoid]

My red beer currently ferment with W-34/70 an 27'C. Airlock is very active since the fifth day.

 

[anotherbeerplease]

This is the warm fermented lager thread. That sounds like a traditional method. It sounds lovely though.

Oh, I don't brew many lagers.. figured most people pitch low, in the 50s.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Oh, I don't brew many lagers.. figured most people pitch low, in the 50s.

There's two schools of thought about that. Some will say that it's better to pitch warm and cool to get yeast activity going faster, others say that a cooler pitch is less stressful on the yeast and will result in a cleaner beer because a majority of the flavor compounds are produced during the lag phase.

This thread though, is about doing the bulk of fermentation at about 60+ degrees, similar to an ale, with many different approaches.

EDIT:

To add to that, it seems like in general this thread agrees that pitching cool as possible is best particularly when making warm-fermented lagers.