Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[deadwolfbones]

Thanks, TANSTAAFB, that's what I was thinking too.

It's up in the mid 60s and bubbling again.

 

[Miraculix]

I just tried one of the Chevallier Smash WLP800 beers I made as a starter for my Schwarzbier....

BEST.WARM.LAGER.YEAST.EVER!

The beer is completely clean, not a single hint of off flavour and tastes like a Lager. I did zero temp control, it went up and down during the day and the night. I love it.

The Chevallier is also highly itneresting. It tastes like there is 10-20% crystal malt inside but it isn't. It is only Chevallier. I love it. It tastes like a very nice Crystal malt added at exactly the right amount. I think @Northern_Brewer did mention that before, it is really a malt flavour on it's own.

And back to the wlp800, it actually floccs very well (given the fact that it is supposed to be a "hidden" ale strain, it does not surprise me). I am impressed. Would really recommend giving this one a try! It might be almost a bit too clean as there was no sulfur which one can get with some lager strains.

I can also see this one shine in a IPL or however you would call an IPA with lager yeast. This is the cleanest tasting beer I made so far.

Anyway, great yeast for warm lagers! My new favourite!

 

[divrack]

beer is like physics. you think you know what it all means until you really start looking into it and doing experiments and then it all starts breaking down.
lager/beer/ale. im starting to think its all just a bunch of yeasts running about drunk.

 

[balrog]

beer is like physics. you think you know what it all means until you really start looking into it and doing experiments and then it all starts breaking down.
lager/beer/ale. im starting to think its all just a bunch of yeasts running about drunk.

"Heisenberg Uncertainty Yeast"?

 

[divrack]

its the cat in the random death box.
it is both a lager and an ale at the same time until its been supped. or in the cats case the only thing we can say for certain is that it is/was a very angry cat

 

[Sbe2]

After reading this thread I will be attempting my first lager, a Pilsner. I have no way to lager, but my basement is around 65 all year round.

Now I have to decide between 34/70 and wlp800.

 

[Miraculix]

Easy choice, WLP800. You will need extended time for the 3470 to settle.... had a lot of problems with yeast in flocculation because I couldn't cold crash. I also had some off flavours with 3470, which I could not find the reason for...... If you can cold crash, you can choose between both. If not go with the wlp800. If you wanna play safe regarding off flavours, go with wlp800 as well.

And make sure to dry hop your pilsener with saaz or hallertau mittelfrueh or similar (doesnt have anything to do with the yeast, it just tastes awesome)

Edit: If you wanna go with dry yeast, I would go with magrove jack california lager. I have not tried it yet, but I have a 1 gallon test batch going (almost two weeks in the fermenter now) and I can see that the flocculation is far superior to 3470. But I have not taste tested it yet.

 

[Sbe2]

I am a hop head so I will probably be dry hopping. I was thinking of going all Saaz, but will have to look at hallertau mittelfrueh.

Has anyone recently used any of the California Lager yeasts?

 

[Miraculix]

All saaz will be fine! Maybe this time all saaz and next time all Hallertauer Mittelfrueh for comparison?

Will be able to tell you something about the taste of mj california lager in one or two weeks.

 

[ba-brewer]

I like the wyeast California lager yeast, I get fairly consistent 75% attenuation, like that it leaves some body. The beers also seem to have a nice head and leave lacing. I don't recall for sure but I think it clears better than the white labs version. I would not say it makes a true lager tasting beer, no sulfur notes.

 

[Sbe2]

@Miraculix When do you dry hop? How much? For how long?

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix When do you dry hop? How much? For how long?

I basically wait till fermentation is almost done or even completely done and put it in there for in between two and seven days. For beers longer in the fermenter, I tend to dry hop shortly before I bottle so I can instantly bottle when pulling the dry hop bag.

Amount is mostly between 20- 40 g for five gallons. But I actually don't dry hop that often in general..

 

[divrack]

I take it you pitch at ale rates when doing a warm lager ferment? Or if not I wonder if the higher pitch is responsible for the 'lager' characteristics more than temp...
Maybe the whole "lager means kept in German" is false and it is a misspell of larger.

 

[Miraculix]

I take it you pitch at ale rates when doing a warm lager ferment? Or if not I wonder if the higher pitch is responsible for the 'lager' characteristics more than temp...
Maybe the whole "lager means kept in German" is false and it is a misspell of larger.

I can only speak for myself, but I try to pitch as much as possible, staying within a reasonable range, of course. I do not really believe in negative effects of so called over pitching, but I certainly have experienced very bad results when under pitching.

Therefore I try to get as many healthy yeasties inside as possible. Might be 2 packs of 3470 or a big starter with wlp800. From my experience this might actually help the fermentation, but I have no actual proof except from personal experience.

 

[Miraculix]

Regarding my Schwarzbier and my wlp 800 lager, the lager did start to taste a bit tart and developed some hints of flavour I knew... Could not really say from where, up until yesterday when the flavour developed even further, it tastes like kveik. I infected my starter with bloody kveik. I opened the Schwarzbier bucket I am going to bottle today and guess what.... Smells like kveik to.

...... Ok, black kveik it is than, this kveik did survive a two day star san bath and it is a glass Demijon. I might have left some spots on the bottom of the ballon though, but I thought two days of star san would do the trick.

This sucks. Lesson learned.

 

[balrog]

kveik = Norwegian Traditional Farmhouse Brewing Yeast?
StarSan is bacteriacide and you have to use iodophor or bleach to get mold/yeast. Although plenty of people have had no issues using StarSan only, there are some threads out there about the need to sometimes use something more broad spectrum (like bleach, iodophor, paracetic acid) to really really REALLY kill everything.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes the original Norwegian mix of many many yeasts and bacteria from a source from Norway.

I think there might have been a little bit of it left at the bottom, like a small film on some parts of the demijon used to build up the starter for the Schwarzbier, so it was clearly my fault.

Well, will bleach bomb everything after.this brewing cycle. Let's see if I can get it out of the plastic bucket I used for the Schwarzbier.

 

[Miraculix]

I just finished botteling the split batch with wlp800 and mj california lager. The wlp800 did have strange small and round colonies floating on top of it and smelled slightly infected. It also had a little off flavour that tasted like infection. I cannot describe it, wasn't tart or anything... tasted just off. I nearly dumped it, but as the flavour was really just a hint, I decided to go for it and bottled those 24 liters. We will see how it develops..... If it is from the KVEIK, at least there won't be any bottle bombs as the yeast of the Kveik flocked out so well that the original Kveik did not carbonate in the bottle

The mangrove jack california lager looks and tastes promising. Unfortunately, I have only 8 bottles of this one. But, it flocks well and it tastes very clean. I missed a bit the lager sulfur hint, but this might come when carbonating. I have the suspission that my beers have not enough IBUs, but that is a recipe issue.

However, the roasty flavour from the roast barley is really subdued while the beer is dark as the night. Mission accomplished, that was my goal. I cold steeped the roast barley over night, instead of mashing it. I used about 10% roast barley in the grist.

Overall, a very good learning experience and have two new tested and working lager yeast strains in our reportoir that do work at ale temperatures. I would prefer the wlp 800 slightly based on the taste of the starter, but i cannot judge it 100%, as the infection covers a lot.

MJ CL works and is convinient as it is a dry yeast, I would definetely prefer it over the SAF Lager dry yeasts.

Both beers had 1.05 OG, WLP 800 ended with 1.02 FG and MJ CL ended up at ca. 1.013-1.015 FG(hard to tell with my current hydrometer). But you have to take those readings with a grain of salt as I do not trust this hydrometer that much.....

 

[Rhaop]

I just finished botteling the split batch with wlp800 and mj california lager. The wlp800 did have strange small and round colonies floating on top of it and smelled slightly infected. It also had a little off flavour that tasted like infection. I cannot describe it, wasn't tart or anything... tasted just off. I nearly dumped it, but as the flavour was really just a hint, I decided to go for it and bottled those 24 liters. We will see how it develops..... If it is from the KVEIK, at least there won't be any bottle bombs as the yeast of the Kveik flocked out so well that the original Kveik did not carbonate in the bottle

The mangrove jack california lager looks and tastes promising. Unfortunately, I have only 8 bottles of this one. But, it flocks well and it tastes very clean. I missed a bit the lager sulfur hint, but this might come when carbonating. I have the suspission that my beers have not enough IBUs, but that is a recipe issue.

However, the roasty flavour from the roast barley is really subdued while the beer is dark as the night. Mission accomplished, that was my goal. I cold steeped the roast barley over night, instead of mashing it.

Overall, a very good learning experience and have two new tested and working lager yeast strains in our reportoir that do work at ale temperatures. I would prefer the wlp 800 slightly based on the taste of the starter, but i cannot judge it 100%, as the infection covers a lot.

MJ CL works and is convinient as it is a dry yeast, I would definetely prefer it over the SAF Lager dry yeasts.

Both beers had 1.05 OG, WLP 800 ended with 1.02 FG and MJ CL ended up at ca. 1.013-1.015 FG(hard to tell with my current hydrometer). But you have to take those readings with a grain of salt as I do not trust this hydrometer that much.....

I plan on trying the Mj cali lager again, used it a couple months ago and had serious lag time even with rehydration, has goferm been discussed? Read that can be helpful for rehydration

 

[Miraculix]

I plan on trying the Mj cali lager again, used it a couple months ago and had serious lag time even with rehydration, has goferm been discussed? Read that can be helpful for rehydration

I have the feeling that some mj packs might have suffered during transportation or that they have problems to maintain a stable yeast cell count at mjs. I had activity in less than 12 hours. Goferm sounds like a good idea to me, in addition I would recommend using two packs. Mj yeast is fairly cheap, at least here in the UK, so a second or even a third pack won't hurt. Rehydration is a must and goferm sounds like a good add-on.

 

[Rhaop]

I have the feeling that some mj packs might have suffered during transportation or that they have problems to maintain a stable yeast cell count at mjs. I had activity in less than 12 hours. Goferm sounds like a good idea to me, in addition I would recommend using two packs. Mj yeast is fairly cheap, at least here in the UK, so a second or even a third pack won't hurt. Rehydration is a must and goferm sounds like a good add-on.

I don’t mind the idea of using go ferm but at two packs I rather buy a wyeast pack and make a small viability starter It would be about the same cost at my lbhs

so next lager type brew I’ll try goferm rehydration

 

[Miraculix]

I don’t mind the idea of using go ferm but at two packs I rather buy a wyeast pack and make a small viability starter It would be about the same cost at my lbhs

so next lager type brew I’ll try goferm rehydration

Tbh, I don't care so much about the cost anyway. For me it is more a question of convenience. I can store dry yeast forever, don't need a starter, don't need to wait........

 

[seatazzz]

I'm mashing a blonde right now that will be fermented with 34/70. Was planning on using a swamp cooler and leaving it in the garage to keep it below 60. Planning on lagering in the keg since I have enough in the pipeline and can wait. First attempt at something lager-ish, I know it will be beer but I'm hoping for something really refreshing and easy drinking. Also using Gambrinus Pale instead of two row, the LHBS was out of two row yesterday so he cut me a deal on a bag of the Gambrinus. The Racer 5 clone I brewed yesterday tasted great going in the fermenter so I have high hopes for this one.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Had a bit of an accidental warm fermented Helles . . . I temp control using a cool brewing bag and frozen 2l bottles, and I can consistently ferment at 55F. Unfortunately, my fridge/freezer condenser fan broke so while the bottles were sort of freezing, it was not nearly enough. Temps shot up from 53F one night all the way to 63 the next night, at high krausen. The result was good, but it has some fruity esters that are fairly obvious with the style. Reminds me more of a Kolsch than a Helles, at least right now. Might change with more lager time. I got the yeast from work, and we get our lager yeast from a local lager-focused brewery, so the head brewer said "I think it's Bohemian?" so no idea if it's actually a strain that's comfortable with warm temps.

Another note, I think it's possible the subtle fruitiness is due to the sudden 10 degree swing in temp, rather than actually being too warm.

 

[ncbrewer]

I tried brewing a Marzen using 34/70 fermented at 67 degrees. It cleared well in the fermenter, but got a really bad chill haze when the bottles were refrigerated. I've always read that chill haze doesn't affect flavor, but this was so intense that it did affect the flavor - to the point that I couldn't tell if it had a lager or ale flavor. I left several in the fridge for a month or so, and they cleared. Then it seemed to have a lager flavor. This isn't practical for me on a routine basis, so I won't try it again with 34/70. But I plan to try a brew using Mangrove Jacks M-54 California Lager yeast.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I tried brewing a Marzen using 34/70 fermented at 67 degrees. It cleared well in the fermenter, but got a really bad chill haze when the bottles were refrigerated. I've always read that chill haze doesn't affect flavor, but this was so intense that it did affect the flavor - to the point that I couldn't tell if it had a lager or ale flavor. I left several in the fridge for a month or so, and they cleared. Then it seemed to have a lager flavor. This isn't practical for me on a routine basis, so I won't try it again with 34/70. But I plan to try a brew using Mangrove Jacks M-54 California Lager yeast.

Yeast strain doesn't cause chill haze, it is typically a process issue. If your beer doesn't normally get chill haze though, probably has to do with the malt. Could also be your fridge is set to cool more than usual, causing more haze then usual. Wouldn't blame it on yeast though.

 

[Miraculix]

Quick update on the wlp800 front. As we know, this yeast is actually an ale yeast but used and sold as a lager yeast.

I used it in a Schwarzbier which I thought would be infected, but now after bottle conditioning the infected taste is gone.

It doesn't taste like a real lager though, it does taste like a really clean ale. Not much esters present, but also not much of this typical lager taste.

It is a nice beer though, hopped on the low side, about 5%abv but I think I would not recognise it as a lager if I wouldn't know beforehand. Very very clean but still a bit like an ale.

Maybe this is what this yeast does. Ale temp and it will you give you a very clean ale profile and lager temp and it will give you a lager.

Will test the California lager variant of this beer later on today, so stay tuned

 

[JohnSand]

Sounds like it might be a good dual purpose yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Sounds like it might be a good dual purpose yeast.

It surely is. It just won't compact as well as other good ale yeasts do. Flavour wise I would actually compare it to Nottingham, no wonder given the fact that Nottingham is a blend of an ale and a lager yeast. But Nottingham flocs and compacts better.

 

[Miraculix]

Yesterday I tried one of the mangrove jack Californian lager Schwarzbiere. It was not even half carbonated but so far the cleanest tasting beer I have made so far. It tastes like nothing regarding yeast character. It could be that nuances are hidden by the dark malts, but in general, this is my new favorite warm lager yeast.

Cheap, clean, floocs really well for a lager and is really reallyclean. Even cleaner than wlp800.

I will brew a dry hopped pilsener with it soon. That will be a great summer beer!

 

[Toga]

Is the mangrove jacks cleaner than wyeast 2112?

 

[Miraculix]

Is the mangrove jacks cleaner than wyeast 2112?

Dont know, never had that one. MJ CL is the cleanest thing I ever brewed, pretty much zero yeast character, if this answers your question.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WYeast 2112 California Lager is supposedly the Anchor strain, as is White Labs WLP810 San Francisco Lager.

One might suppose that there's a fair chance that Mangrove Jack's M54 Californian Lager might be similar...

 

[Upthewazzu]

I used 2112 in a Christmas beer a couple years ago @ ~60° and it was incredibly clean. Almost zero yeast flavor.

 

[Toga]

I have a batch of Michael Dawson's bocce swerve on tap that I used 2112 in. It is fairly clean. I did however get some sulphur notes in the finished beer even after lagering for a few weeks. Think I may have to try the mangrove jacks cali lager in another batch of the same beer to see how compares.

For those who are curious about my process. Made a 3l starter (stir plate). Pitched at 58F and let it rise to 62F for the first few days then bumped it to 67F for a week and a half, cold crashed, then kegged a week later.

 

[Miraculix]

I have a batch of Michael Dawson's bocce swerve on tap that I used 2112 in. It is fairly clean. I did however get some sulphur notes in the finished beer even after lagering for a few weeks. Think I may have to try the mangrove jacks cali lager in another batch of the same beer to see how compares.

For those who are curious about my process. Made a 3l starter (stir plate). Pitched at 58F and let it rise to 62F for the first few days then bumped it to 67F for a week and a half, cold crashed, then kegged a week later.

I would have loved to get a slight sulfur note from the mj cl, a lot of lagers have it. But not this one.

 

[seatazzz]

Update on my 34/70 fermented Blonde lager. I gave it a taste yesterday when the krausen was falling (bought a new wine thief and just HAD to test it) and I'm getting some banana-ey clove-y esters out of it, but they're not overpowering and quite pleasant. Krausen is completely down today and temperature at 60. Will let it sit until Friday then keg, and it will then sit in the kegerator another 3 weeks before testing again. I'm liking this experiment so far.

 

[Miraculix]

Update on my 34/70 fermented Blonde lager. I gave it a taste yesterday when the krausen was falling (bought a new wine thief and just HAD to test it) and I'm getting some banana-ey clove-y esters out of it, but they're not overpowering and quite pleasant. Krausen is completely down today and temperature at 60. Will let it sit until Friday then keg, and it will then sit in the kegerator another 3 weeks before testing again. I'm liking this experiment so far.

I had the same. I do not know why some people get it and some don't when fermenting with it warm.

It was quite strong in my beer, but as you said, it was actually nice. Not what I aimed for but it was definitely a nice surprise and tasted good.

 

[catdaddy66]

I just tried one of the Chevallier Smash WLP800 beers I made as a starter for my Schwarzbier....

BEST.WARM.LAGER.YEAST.EVER!

The beer is completely clean, not a single hint of off flavour and tastes like a Lager. I did zero temp control, it went up and down during the day and the night. I love it.

The Chevallier is also highly itneresting. It tastes like there is 10-20% crystal malt inside but it isn't. It is only Chevallier. I love it. It tastes like a very nice Crystal malt added at exactly the right amount. I think @Northern_Brewer did mention that before, it is really a malt flavour on it's own.

And back to the wlp800, it actually floccs very well (given the fact that it is supposed to be a "hidden" ale strain, it does not surprise me). I am impressed. Would really recommend giving this one a try! It might be almost a bit too clean as there was no sulfur which one can get with some lager strains.

I can also see this one shine in a IPL or however you would call an IPA with lager yeast. This is the cleanest tasting beer I made so far.



Anyway, great yeast for warm lagers! My new favourite!

Glad to hear this! I will be using this same yeast to make a steam (ie warm west coast lager) similar to my California common recipe this weekend. I am encouraged by your results so it should give me good results for this recipe.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

News from the latest White Labs catalogue (hat-tip Wh over at Suregork's)

[WLP051 California V Ale] "is a big ester producer, showcasing notes of cherry and apple which compliment pale ales, blonde and brown ales. Even in pale ales, this strain’s characteristic lower attenuation results in a full-bodied malt forward beer. Typically leaves some residual, lager-like sulfur compounds in finished beer. Recent sequencing studies show that WLP051 belongs to Saccharomyces pastorianus species, the same hybrid species as most lager strains. However, this strain has been used to make ales for decades and was previously categorized as belonging to Saccharomyces cerevisiae."

So WLP051 is a lager yeast. Traditionally it's linked to Anchor Liberty, and hence to 1272 and BRY-97. Probably not the cleanest yeast to use, but it kinda highlights how fluid the definition of "lager" beer can be when people have been using a strain at ale temperatures in ale worts and never realised it was technically a lager yeast. Might explain its reputation for being a slow starter though.