Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[lumbergh]

I have Jamil's Munich Madness fermenting with MJ54. Going to keg soon. I got the Munich and 2 row percentages switched (oops, but who cares). My first lager ever

 

[sfrisby]

Had a cali common that I brewed w/ 34/70 last night and while it still had that unfinished smell to it, the taste was great. Gonna give the rest some time to finish out and I'm sure it'll be a great beer.

Tomorrow I bottle up some Oktoberfest I brewed with MJ California Lager yeast. I'll likely just pitch the helles I'm planning right on top of the yeast cake on Saturday. Should make for a fun Oktoberfest party in September

Similar to what I did. Brewed a helles with 34/70 and then pitched an octoberfest on top of that yeast cake. We’ll find out next month.

 

[aceluby]

Similar to what I did. Brewed a helles with 34/70 and then pitched an octoberfest on top of that yeast cake. We’ll find out next month.

I'm kegging the helles tonight, so we'll see how it goes. The Oktoberfest is nice and malty, it should be very nice by mid September.

 

[InspectorJon]

I had a really nice tasting, crystal clear and very light color, hoppy "Cold Pale Ale" at South Lake Brewing Company the other day. The brewer told me they use 34/70 at ale temperature for their "Cold" IPA and Pale Ale. There is another thread about Cold IPA, including, disparaging comments about why it is inappropriately named, but it is another application of warm fermented lager yeast in a beer a lot of people are liking.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Had a go. 74% Pilsner 26% flaked maize with 10 IBUs Hallertau Mittlefruh. 1.042 OG. 4.6% W34/70 started at 20c @12psi throughout. Ramped after it slowed down and ended at 71F or so.

American lager water profile on Brewfather ,added 0.4g/liter Wyeast nutrient in the boil and Whirlfoc.

Overall very tasty. Way better than like Coor’s etc. too much corn, though. Will use rice or less corn next time. 60 minute boil and I’ve never gotten DMS even boiling this Pilsner malt for 30 minutes.

Threw some mad H2S during fermentation. Any way to mitigate this? I thought it went away and cold crashed on day 10 or so. Was done in 5 days.

Very stinky even after conditioning for a week or so. I got a solid copper piece of wire, but didn’t want to do that. Read that oxygen helps and usually would fine in a way that minimizes oxygen. Cracked the lid on the keg and dumped Biofine in instead.

No hint of oxidation(yet) and H2S is gone. Would love to figure out how to make it not do that if anyone knows.

 

[dmtaylor]

Corn has a lot of sulfur. Less corn might give you less sulfur. Anyway, H2S ages out on its own after about 3 weeks. All you need is patience and it will disappear.

 

[balrog]

I had a cream ale that never gave up all the sulfur in the keg. I did not try purging daily (with CO2 of course) over a week or so however.

I just poured each pint w copper tube swizzle stick in the glass. A clean copper tube.

 

[VikeMan]

Corn has a lot of sulfur.

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by this, but corn actually contains less sulfur than barley or wheat. If I were having an issue with sulfur compounds in a beer with corn, I'd be looking at yeast nutrients. Corn has less FAN than barley malt, and a FAN deficiency can cause increased H2S.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Corn has a lot of sulfur. Less corn might give you less sulfur. Anyway, H2S ages out on its own after about 3 weeks. All you need is patience and it will disappear.

Any idea how that works? Is there any chance people are cracking he lid when fining and oxygen is doing it?

I had a cream ale that never gave up all the sulfur in the keg. I did not try purging daily (with CO2 of course) over a week or so however.

I just poured each pint w copper tube swizzle stick in the glass. A clean copper tube.

I forgot, I blew it off a ton with CO2, but with a floating dip tube from the top. Didn’t seem to do anything. Seemed like it did at first, but was still there.

 

[11thStBrewing]

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by this, but corn actually contains less sulfur than barley or wheat. If I were having an issue with sulfur compounds in a beer with corn, I'd be looking at yeast nutrients. Corn has less FAN than barley malt, and a FAN deficiency can cause increased H2S.

Maybe it just needs more nutrients then? I definitely want to brew more of these. Will try on the next one.

 

[VikeMan]

Is there any chance people are cracking he lid when fining and oxygen is doing it?

Oxygen would actually reduce the sulfur smell.

Maybe it just needs more nutrients then? I definitely want to brew more of these. Will try on the next one.

Quite possibly.

 

[Miraculix]

I also had these sulphury corn experiences when brewing american lagers warm and with about 20-30% corn.... Could be the nutrients, could be somehting else, I don't know. I even had this when using Nottingham for a cream ale with the same amount of corn, now that I think of it. There is definitely something going on with corn and sulphur.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Oxygen would actually reduce the sulfur smell.



Quite possibly.

Right. What I mean is, do you think people are saying sulphur ‘ages out’ because they’re cracking the lid to add finings? That’s what worked here.

 

[VikeMan]

Right. What I mean is, do you think people are saying sulphur ‘ages out’ because they’re cracking the lid to add finings? That’s what worked here.

Well, yes. Any O2 that gets dissolved is available to react with H2S (or with other compounds).

 

[seatazzz]

Tested my WF lager on 34/70 yesterday; brewed last Saturday, and by Friday was down to 1.008, and tasting great. Set to crash last night and will keg today or tomorrow. Glad I went back to this yeast, it did a great job.

 

[cmac62]

I once added too much Kmeta when transferring to the keg (to protect the beer from 02). It definitely smelled of sulfur, so I'm guessing giving the beer more 02 to react with would have helped. I ended up dumping it.

 

[Wortchester]

During the last year or so i have made warm lagers with all 4 major dried lager yeasts and i felt i should post my notes somewhere. The process and ingredients have been about the same for all cases.
3 Kg of light LME, half of it boiled with hops and a pinch of yeast nutrient. The hot wort and the remaining extract are combined in plastic bucket fermenter. Tap cold water is added to fill to about 19-20l mark. One package of dry yeast is pitched directly on wort. Temperature of pitch is about 16'C.
The fermenter is set into a temperature buffer and cold water is rotated to keep the fermenter at about 18'C until the primary fermentation starts. Then the temperature is allowed to free-rise to room temperature (~23'C) during the rest of fermentation. The beer is bottled with carbonation shots and oxy-scavanging caps. Bottles are stored in room temperature until day of consumption arrives.

W34/70
Done in 5 days. Goes down to 2'P. Clears out quickly but the yeast doesnt quite stick to the bottles.
Has a clean profile, crisp mouthfeel and some sulphur. The most "legit" of all warm lager tests. In all three times i've tried the yeast, including when using fresh yeast from previous batch, there has been an apricot ester remaining. There isn't much of it but against a clean background it stands out enough for me to notice.

S-189
Done in about week. 2.5'P. Good fast flocculation.
Produces passionfruit ester during fermentation as documented. During bottle carbonation it produced many ale-like esters which worried me for a while. After about two weeks all the flavors subsided and left behind only some white grape ester. In about a month it had a good lagery mouthfeel and taste.

S-23
Done in about week. 3'P left. Good fast flocculation.
Surpriseless fermentation. Small amount of starfruit ester with some maltiness. Very neutral overall. After a few weeks in bottle the mouthfeel crisped a bit and some sulphur came out. Not quite as refreshing as W34/70. Very much like a cheap storebrand lager which is both a backhanded compliment and probably not far away from truth.

Diamond Lager
Worked for 5 days, took one off and finished on seventh. 2.25'P. Clearing took some time but it had nice stick to it.
At the end of fermentation it had a very neutral flavor. Comparable to S-23 but with apple-pear instead of starfruit. During bottle carbonation it tossed out esters and they subsided in few weeks. What remained was red apple ester, similiar to California Ale V without the cherry. Mouthfeel crisp and some sulphur. Bit too estery for a lager but still a good beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.

500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.

Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"

They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.

 

[balrog]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.

500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.

Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"

They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.

Color me very much intrigued.

 

[user 263363]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.

500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.

Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"

They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.

I have to hand it to Lallemand. They are really keeping dry yeast users in the game with a bunch of new strains in the last few years. I will definitely be trying this when my store gets some.

 

[user 263363]

Here’s the first pour of my Vienna Lager that I fermented without pressure at room temperature, ~70°F, with 34/70.

It’s only been in the bottle two weeks and this bottle was only in the fridge for 24 hours so there’s some chill haze that needs to dissipate and it’s still a little green, but there are no obvious off flavors to report. This beer will be included in a FOTHB beer trade so I will have a second person to give me some feedback.

 

[SanPancho]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/
It's one of the new hybrids from Renaissance (ie not Saaz or Frohberg, but a new cerevisiae x eubayanus cross) that have a claimed temperature range of 10-20°C (50-68°F). and no hydrogen sulphide so they need less lagering time.

500g bricks are supposedly imminent with retail packs on their way - usually it takes 1-3 months for them to see the light of day after the bricks.

Per the tech sheet :
"These novel Group III (Renaissance) strains are allotetraploid with four sets of chromosomes, three from S. cerevisiae and one from S. eubayanus....Due to a greater contribution from the S. cerevisiae subgenome the LalBrew NovaLager™ strain demonstrates tolerance to warmer temperatures, more robust and rapid fermentation, a unique avor prole and low levels of diacetyl and H2 S while maintaining cryotolerance imparted by the S. eubayanus subgenome"

They claim 15 Plato to 5 Plato in 4 days (compared to 7 days for Notty and 10 days for Diamond), 78-84% attenuation (like Notty), high flocc, 13% ABV tolerance.

they're coming out with a thiol releasing lager as well.

 

[aceluby]

I’m drinking the first dregs of my Oktoberfest I kegged yesterday. It’s thick because of the settling/gelatin, but the flavor is great. The MJ California lager yeast is something else - 12 day grain to glass “lager” and only a slightly green taste to it. Will snap a pic in the next couple days, but next weekends Oktoberfest party should be great with bottled and kegged Oktoberfest, a half keg of a festbier, an IPA that should finish mid week and get thrown in the keg, and about 30 bottles of Hefeweizen.

 

[seatazzz]

For my last WF lager (grain to glass in 9 days) I went back to using 34/70; was fresh for that one. Brewing another one today with the slurry; I've found for my WF lagers that 2nd gen & beyond yeast yields a faster, cleaner fermentation, as well as a beer that is as close to a cold-fermented lager as I can get in terms of flavor and mouthfeel. Could be overpitching, could be just healthier yeast, but the beers I've brewed with fresh yeast are always a bit 'meh' unless I use two packets; I'm cheap and don't want to do that. Today's brew isn't anything fancy; 70/30 two-row/pilsner, with Cascade for bittering and small additions of Crystal at 10 & 5. Made it several times before and it's always a crowd pleaser.

 

[ncbrewer]

3 Kg of light LME, half of it boiled with hops and a pinch of yeast nutrient. The hot wort and the remaining extract are combined in plastic bucket fermenter. Tap cold water is added to fill to about 19-20l mark. One package of dry yeast is pitched directly on wort. Temperature of pitch is about 16'C.

I was wondering when you chill the wort - it looks like maybe after adding the cold tap water?

 

[Wortchester]

The boil is only about 4 liters. When its added to the remaining extract the temperature will drop below boiling and together with 15-16 liters of cold water the sum ends up around 16'c. I do need to let the tap run to its coldest first or it will stay in the 20s.

 

[ncbrewer]

Depending on the extract brand, there may be a risk of infection. I recently had some extract from Williams Brewing start to ferment in the sealed package. After contacting the supplier, I got this response: "I spoke to Bill and we do not know when or if we might get more Nut Brown. We do have quite a bit until we run out. Not all of it has been bagged. We've only had a couple that started to ferment in the bag. The other sizes seem to be fine. We do believe it may have had to do with the hot weather. It is refrigerated here and we are now going to put a sticker on the bags in warm weather to refrigerate on arrival." I think they are assuming the extract will be boiled, or at least pasteurized so that the microbes present will be killed. Your quick chill method doesn't look like it would pasteurize the extract. On the other hand, I believe most brands are already at least pasteurized since they can be stored for a long time without refrigeration. Just a heads up.

 

[aceluby]

Here’s a Helles lager I brewed a couple months back. Mostly 2 row, a bit of light Munich, fermented with repitched mangrove jack’s California lager strain from half of another batch, kegged, and then sat in my kegerator for a few weeks. That decal is on the other side of the glass. By far the hit of our Oktoberfest. My first taste of the evening and it’s just clean. Had brewer friends over for the first time and they really enjoyed this, my two different Oktoberfests, and my Lutra pale ale I brewed last Thursday. They couldn’t believe it was warm fermented. Unfortunately a bunch of people bailed, so none of my keg spots are free… so Oktoberfest round 2 for the neighbors tomorrow? Yes. Yes we will.

 

[cmac62]

Depending on the extract brand, there may be a risk of infection. I recently had some extract from Williams Brewing start to ferment in the sealed package. After contacting the supplier, I got this response: "I spoke to Bill and we do not know when or if we might get more Nut Brown. We do have quite a bit until we run out. Not all of it has been bagged. We've only had a couple that started to ferment in the bag. The other sizes seem to be fine. We do believe it may have had to do with the hot weather. It is refrigerated here and we are now going to put a sticker on the bags in warm weather to refrigerate on arrival." I think they are assuming the extract will be boiled, or at least pasteurized so that the microbes present will be killed. Your quick chill method doesn't look like it would pasteurize the extract. On the other hand, I believe most brands are already at least pasteurized since they can be stored for a long time without refrigeration. Just a heads up.

It sounded like @Wortchester added the extra extract to the boiling wart and I doubt it would get below the pasteurization temp with just the extract. Then he uses the cold water to chill the wart down to pitching temps.

 

[lumbergh]

I finally tried my first ever lager (warm fermented with MJ Cali lager). It is the Munich Madness märzen recipe from brewing classic styles. Tastes great. The finish is dry/crisp and not sweet. I prefer this over the Lutra Oktoberfest I brewed last year (it was good, but this is better).

Thanks to everyone for their warm fermented lager experiments. I definitely want to make more lagers now.