Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[aceluby]

Made myself a Munich Dunkel a few weeks ago, munich and a touch of cara II for color. It's a good beer, but a little out of style as it has more roasty notes than I'd like. I know if I give it some time those will die off though, it's less and less roasty as time passes. Still, a very easy drinker, brewed with repitched MJ Cali Lager from the previous Oktoberfest I made.

 

[echoALEia]

Hi all!

I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.

I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.

What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?

Thanks and cheers!

 

[Slim M]

Hi all!

I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.

I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.

What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?

Thanks and cheers!

I’ve been starting out a touch cooler that that, say about 63 for the first few days then slowly ramping up to about 68. Then I keg, carb, & store around 35 for few weeks. With the off flavors you listed did you lager? Are you bottling or we talking keg?

 

[echoALEia]

I’ve been starting out a touch cooler that that, say about 63 for the first few days then slowly ramping up to about 68. Then I keg, carb, & store around 35 for few weeks. With the off flavors you listed did you lager? Are you bottling or we talking keg?

Yes, the acetaldehdye one faded a bit but the fusel one didn’t. I’ll try 63F. Does your ramping up happen over a week?

 

[echoALEia]

I’ve been starting out a touch cooler that that, say about 63 for the first few days then slowly ramping up to about 68. Then I keg, carb, & store around 35 for few weeks. With the off flavors you listed did you lager? Are you bottling or we talking keg?

Also, do you ferment under pressure?

 

[Slim M]

Also, do you ferment under pressure?

No pressure. Yeah so what I’ve been doing lately with beers 1.050 or smaller is chill wort to around 60f and set temp for fermentation to 63f. After 72 hours I go up a degree daily until 68f then hold for a few days. I’ve also tried 63 for 7 days the ramping over the course of another 7 days but didn’t see any real benefit.

 

[Slim M]

Yes, the acetaldehdye one faded a bit but the fusel one didn’t. I’ll try 63F. Does your ramping up happen over a week?

Keep in mind ferm chamber temp and ferm temp are not always the same under heavy fermentation. It’s possible that you got warmer than you realize, but maybe not. I do not have a thermowell but I tape probe to the fermenter and insulate it best I can.

 

[user 263363]

Hi all!

I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.

I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.

What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?

Thanks and cheers!

So, I am a bit of a Cowboy. My last “lager” was done in a fermonster at room temp, which, at the time, averaged around 72F.

I let it go two solid weeks in the fermenter and then bottled. It’s been in bottles about a month and a half now and fridged for at least a month of that.

It’s fantastic with zero off flavors with 34/70. The only variable that might have made a difference is I pitched a whole pack in a 2.5 gallon batch.

 

[ncbrewer]

I'll pass along an email from Fermentis about a warm fermentation study. I found it interesting.

MY QUESTION:
In Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 - Fermentis - the study concluded that “The most important point for the brewers is this: SafLager™ W-34/70 can ensure both a faster and neutral fermentation profile at higher temperatures.” It was tested at up to 20C (68F). But the main product page - SafLager™ W-34/70 - Fermentis yeast for Weihenstephan lagers - shows temperature range up to 18C (64.4F). I am not sure whether 68F is actually in the recommended range or not. Can you help with this?

Also, I can’t find a similar study using S-189. Is there a web page for that?

FERMENTIS REPLY:
Sorry for the time to come back to you, last week has been quite busy, thanks again for the level of details you dedicate to our yeasts,

Be insured that you can work with our SafLager™ W-34/70 up to 68°F without problems, adjustments have to be done on our website,

Similar study for the SafLager™ S-189 doesn’t exist for the moment but we’re working on it, for you to know, create this kind of detailed scientific study takes us almost one year,

That being said, if you have any questions about this yeast strain, I remain at your disposal to answer to all your questions,

Have a nice one,

Cheers,
Hugo

 

[ncbrewer]

I should note that in spite of Fermentis' study, my warm fermented (68F) Marzen, IMO, turned out lager-like in terms of esters, but not as crisp tasting as it should have. I liked it very much and will brew it again - I'll call it a pseudo-lager.

 

[VikeMan]

I should note that in spite of Fermentis' study, my warm fermented (68F) Marzen, IMO, turned out lager-like in terms of esters, but not as crisp tasting as it should have.

That was kind of a weird study. The lowest fermentation temperature tested was 54F, which is not really a cold fermentation by lager standards. They did find that certain measurables were pretty consistent between very warm temps and less warm temps.

 

[lumbergh]

I just brewed the Brulosophy hop chronicles Loral pale ale with California Lager yeast. Smells great fermenting.
Would you call it a pale lager?

 

[EDF713]

I just brewed the Brulosophy hop chronicles Loral pale ale with California Lager yeast. Smells great fermenting.
Would you call it a pale lager?

Sure. The great thing about homebrewing, it's your beer, you can call it whatever you want.

 

[brewbama]

Hi all!

I’m attempting to catch up on all 1,800+ posts on this thread and I’m curious about the current best practices.

I’ve attempted this twice with two similar Festbier recipes and while they were both ok, they had two noticeable off flavors. The first had fusels (I fermented at 66F and pitched it as if it were an ale) and the second had a fair amount of acetaldehyde (green apple). Both were fermented with 34/70.

What is everyone doing as far as process and fermentation schedule these days?

Thanks and cheers!

I have settled on 55°F for Lagers and 65°F for Ales. These are wort temps via a thermowell …not ambient temps. Using these temps I am usually SG to FG in 5 +/- 1 day. I am usually grain to glass in ~21+ days.

My timelines and temps are based on this: Fermenting lagers in 21 days except I pitch and ferment at 13°C using the CO2 generated by the ferment to purge the keg I’ll transfer to.

…then I close transfer to a keg with a cpl points to go and spunding valve to finish at 55°F for 7 days for Lagers and 65°F for Ales. I like to close transfer to a CO2 purged keg with yeast still in suspension so it can consume any O2 I inadvertently pickup during the xfer while at secondary temps.

…then I reduce temp to 32°F to cold condition for 7+ days. The beer rests at this temp until I need the keg (~21+ days grain to glass).

in regards to off flavors: I recommend pitching plenty of healthy yeast. Even though the Lager ferment is warm I recommend pitching at ‘Lager rates’. For example, in a 4.5 gal 1.050 wort, 55°F ferment, I will pitch 22 grams W34/70 or a comparable volume of harvested yeast slurry via a ‘shaken not stirred’ starter.

…also, since fermentation is exothermic, expect to control fermenter temps +/- 2°F.

Despite what home brewers on the internet say, one 11 gram package of dried yeast is rarely recommended by the mfr’s guidelines for 5 gal of wort. Fermentis guideline: .5-.8 grams per liter for Ales and .8-1 gram per liter for Lagers. Likewise, rarely is one 11g pack recommended by the Lallemand pitch rate calculator or the pitching rate rule of thumb.

I recommend a pitch rate calculator but a quick rule of thumb for pitching rate is 6 grams of Ale yeast and 12 grams of Lager yeast per gravity points divided by 25 in a 5 gal batch. (Gravity points / 25)*6 or 12= pitch rate in grams.

I used to experience really long lag times, sluggish fermentation, and attenuation all over the map until I began using the yeast per the mfr instructions.

here’s an example of a pitch rate calculation:

 

[seatazzz]

I tend to have brief love affairs with my WF lager yeasts. When I first tried brewing WF lager I used 34/70; but back then my practices (and fermentation temperature control) weren't great. I ditched it rather harshly and went with Lallemand Diamond for a few batches; got clean fermentations, crisp beer, but the slurry didn't like going past 3rd gen (fruity esters that may/may not have been results of bad handling). Then for a long time I stuck with Saflager S23; first batch was always meh, but after that it did great up to 5 generations of slurry. Then a couple of bad batches (still don't know why), and I'm back with 34/70. Last batch was a festbier that had some weird taste on first pull but has lagered into something quite tasty. On kegging day for that I brewed a batch of my house WF lager recipe (70/30 pilsner/two-row, Cascade for bittering and Crystal late boil additions), racked directly onto the yeast cake; that dropped its krausen in three days, and is currently crashing with an eye to kegging on Saturday. I've settled into a routine of primary for 5-7 days at 64°, then ramping up to 68° for a couple of days to help it clean up. Then a good strong cold crash, kegging with gelatin, and lager for a week (unless I really need it on tap then I'll drink it slightly green).

 

[aceluby]

Brewed a honey imperial lager on Saturday that I’m very excited for. I’ve made it before with Lutra, but this time went with a slightly different recipe and 34/70. That should be done next week.

I also took the second runnings of the mash and got a 1.005 wort from it that I made an NA IPL with 3oz of centennial hops and repitched MJs cali lager. That one is fermenting right in the keg and should be ready to drink next week

 

[sfrisby]

Brewed a honey imperial lager on Saturday that I’m very excited for. I’ve made it before with Lutra, but this time went with a slightly different recipe and 34/70. That should be done next week.

I also took the second runnings of the mash and got a 1.005 wort from it that I made an NA IPL with 3oz of centennial hops and repitched MJs cali lager. That one is fermenting right in the keg and should be ready to drink next week

If be interested in hearing how the NA IPL came out and if you think it’s worth the effort of doing.

 

[aceluby]

If be interested in hearing how the NA IPL came out and if you think it’s worth the effort of doing.

Tasted it today and I WAY overhopped it with bittering hops. Way, way, way too bitter. So this one's a dumper unfortunately, but I think I've got a plan for the next one and since it's spent grain, it only costs a few bucks to make. Instead of a 60 min boil with an ounce of hops at the start, I'm gonna do a 30 min boil with 10g of hops at the start for just a bit of bittering, then finish it up with 10g of hops at 5 min, and an ounce of hops in the whirlpool. The initial flavor was pretty nice, but then it hits ya with a ton of bitter in the back of the throat. I'm also going to use about 1/2 as much yeast this time which is about 1/2 of what I usually do for a 5 gallon batch.

I am absolutely determined to find a recipe that works and each try has gotten a bit better than the last. Once I have it down I'll share my approach and recipe. It's really close.

 

[seatazzz]

Ok my WF lager peeps, I have a dilemma. Today I brewed my standard WF lager recipe, with the intention of fermenting it colder (50°) on some proven 34/70 slurry. Coolest I could get the wort was 57°, and said the heck with it and racked directly onto the (rather hefty) yeast cake. 3.5 hours later, and it took off; temperature controller is set to 50°, and probe shows 57.2°. Yes I know that the yeast generates its own heat during primary, but what happens when that slows down? Should I still ramp it up for a diacetyl rest, or just let it ride? I was hoping to let this one sit for a couple of weeks to finish out, but it's looking like it will be done in about 5 days. What to do?

 

[sweetcell]

Ok my WF lager peeps, I have a dilemma. Today I brewed my standard WF lager recipe, with the intention of fermenting it colder (50°) on some proven 34/70 slurry. Coolest I could get the wort was 57°, and said the heck with it and racked directly onto the (rather hefty) yeast cake. 3.5 hours later, and it took off; temperature controller is set to 50°, and probe shows 57.2°. Yes I know that the yeast generates its own heat during primary, but what happens when that slows down? Should I still ramp it up for a diacetyl rest, or just let it ride? I was hoping to let this one sit for a couple of weeks to finish out, but it's looking like it will be done in about 5 days. What to do?

IMO: yeast are doing their job at 57, and are now used to 57... i'd keep it at 57 until they're mostly done, then start ramping at the end for the DR. maybe set it a little lower, like 55, yeast probably won't notice - but i would not attempt to get it down to 50 at this point. in my experience nothing good has ever happened when i lower temps on an active fermentation. i'm aware there is a school of thought that says to pitch lager yeast warm then cool down to desired temps, i've never done that so i'm sticking with what has worked for me.

 

[aceluby]

Brewed my Helles recipe with 34/70 and it was a pretty big banana bomb for about a week. Now it’s a nice crisp German lager. Pitched a Pils yesterday and don’t think I’ve ever had a clearer wort to start. Hopefully should have some time for it to settle before tapping that keg.

After a few kegs of each I think I like MJs Cali lager more for really clean beers. 34/70 is better when you want something that has those lager esters and phenols.

 

[ba-brewer]

34/70 is better when you want something that has those lager esters and phenols.

There should not be phenols from a lager yeast, if you get phenols you most likely have a cross contamination.

 

[aceluby]

There should not be phenols from a lager yeast, if you get phenols you most likely have a cross contamination.

Correct, no phenols in my beer - incorrectly put that there. What I’m getting is slightly sulfuric and banana before a couple weeks of lagering. After being in my keg for a while though, most of that is gone, but definitely more present than when using MJs Cali lager yeast

 

[balrog]

Fans of shortcut lagers may be interested in the new Lallemand Novalager :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-kingdom/product-details/lalbrew-novalager/

ANyone seen this in <500g packs yet? Specifically in the US?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

more beer has the cellarscience
https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-german-dry-lager-yeast.html

 

[aceluby]

Just kicked my Helles just in time for my Pilsner to be done. Now that I have an open fermenter I’m going to brew a Bock right on the Pilsner yeast cake. So far, the Bock smells nice and malty.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

ANyone seen this in <500g packs yet? Specifically in the US?

Malt Miller seem to have it in retail packs in the UK :
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/lalbrew-novalager-modern-hybrid-lager-yeast/
That usually means that they're no more than a few weeks away in the US, at most. Priced at 20% more than the regular Lallemands like Notty, but that still makes it less than 75% of the price of 34/70 - ouch, I'd not realised that was almost up at liquid yeast prices these days.

 

[balrog]

Malt Miller seem to have it in retail packs in the UK :
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/lalbrew-novalager-modern-hybrid-lager-yeast/
That usually means that they're no more than a few weeks away in the US, at most. Priced at 20% more than the regular Lallemands like Notty, but that still makes it less than 75% of the price of 34/70 - ouch, I'd not realised that was almost up at liquid yeast prices these days.

I had not realized 34/70 had jumped. Clearly the warm fermented lager thread has made demand jump. These are the current prices where I typically purchase:

 

[bellhp]

I just paid almost $8 for 34/70 ...where are your prices from Balrog?

 

[balrog]

I just paid almost $8 for 34/70 ...where are your prices from Balrog?

Ritebrew.com.
Shipping to Massachusetts can kill, but I'll get ingredients for 3 all grain batches at a time, and it works out to be way cheaper and much less effort than driving nearly an hr to the closest LHBS, for me. Plus it's one of the few places you can select at one ounce increments of grain to put a recipe together, and Neil is available for questions via email just about any time with great advice.

[Edit: getting just a few packs of dry yeast will go First Class, costing <=$3.50 so 34/70 is like $6/ea if I get 3]