Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Shenanigans]

I measured the wort last night and after 3 days it has gone from 1.070 down to 1.014. I would say m76 is a fast fermenter at around 18 or 19oC. It should be finished by this weekend but I don't have it planned in to package it until the weekend after next.

I filled it in bottles last Sunday with an FG of 1.013 so it was really finished after about 5 days but I left in the fermenter for 2 weeks.
Only 5 days later, so early days yet but tastes good so far with a nice caramel flavour. It's also already very clear.

Just a reminder I brewed it with MJ76 instead of Diamond at room temperature in an 18oC basement.
Some people say M76 is Diamond repackaged.

I'll report back in a few weeks with my final impressions.

 

[Shenanigans]

I filled it in bottles last Sunday with an FG of 1.013 so it was really finished after about 5 days but I left in the fermenter for 2 weeks.
Only 5 days later, so early days yet but tastes good so far with a nice caramel flavour. It's also already very clear.

Just a reminder I brewed it with MJ76 instead of Diamond at room temperature in an 18oC basement.
Some people say M76 is Diamond repackaged.

I'll report back in a few weeks with my final impressions.

View attachment 868953

I have a few minutes so I'm reporting back a bit earlier.
It's just over two weeks in the bottle now.
So far it doesn't taste as good as the same recipe with WLP833 German Bock.
That one wasn't a true warm ferment though; I did a fast lager method at 13oC for 5 days until it was about 50% attenuated and then let it finish at room temperature (18oC) for another week.
This version still tastes a bit green and the carbonation didn't change much since the first sample bottle 10 days ago.
Might be slower to finish due to the high flocculation.
I'll give it another 2 weeks before checking again.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Planning a helles this weekend, my first go at it and I'm thinking I'll ferment warm under 10psi, any suggestions for the yeast? I'm debating between s23 and 34/70 and considering running it around 60f .. thoughts?

 

[balrog]

34/70
No psi
62F until exotherm done, about 35-48hr then ramp over 48hr to 68 and hold a week

Did a cerveza (much flaked corn) and it was impressively good.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Nice I've done similar with 34/70 in a pre prohibition lager and it was fantastic

 

[BongoYodeler]

I’ve never used 34/70 but plan to on my next batch. Going to to give @camonick ‘s Munich Dunkel recipe a try.

 

[camonick]

I’ve never used 34/70 but plan to on my next batch. Going to to give @camonick ‘s Munich Dunkel recipe a try.

Crazy!!! I’m thinking about brewing that this weekend.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Crazy!!! I’m thinking about brewing that this weekend.

I’ve been meaning to brew it for a couple years but something always seemed to jump ahead of it in the queue.

 

[balrog]

I’ve been meaning to brew it for a couple years but something always seemed to jump ahead of it in the queue.

Damned queue. I hate that fricking thing.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Planning a helles this weekend, my first go at it and I'm thinking I'll ferment warm under 10psi, any suggestions for the yeast? I'm debating between s23 and 34/70 and considering running it around 60f .. thoughts?

I use S23 at 15c with no issues. I really like it though.

 

[camonick]

I’ve been meaning to brew it for a couple years but something always seemed to jump ahead of it in the queue.

Please keep me posted on how it goes and what you think of the results. Biggest problem now is the low AA in German noble hops. I hope mine turns out ok. I’m going to use US Tettnang for bittering and switch to the German hops for my later additions.

 

[Brewer dad]

I did a Dunkel with a dry packet of WLP860 at 10psi in the 60’s. Came out great, attenuates a little less than 34/70. Definitely a good strain for Helles.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Please keep me posted on how it goes and what you think of the results. Biggest problem now is the low AA in German noble hops. I hope mine turns out ok. I’m going to use US Tettnang for bittering and switch to the German hops for my later additions.

Yeah my current pack of saaz is 2.2 AA, when I did my Czech I bittered with magnum.

 

[bloombrews]

@balrog
I have brewed many Lagers, and would never NOT ferment without a Spund on the tank. There is no comparison, to the tight creamy head that fermenting under pressure gives you. I use a blowoff tube at first, just to visually confirm that fermentation has started, and my Tilt sitting in the wort strts showing a drop, agrees. I then set my Kegland spunding regulator to around 15-16 psi.
I stopped using 34/70 the past year. It does not produce Lagers as good as S-189. Trust me, use fermentis S-189, do NOT crash cool (let it slowly cool down to lagering temps 32-39), hold at low temp for 4-6 weeks (the hardest part)

 

[balrog]

@balrog
I have brewed many Lagers, and would never NOT ferment without a Spund on the tank. There is no comparison, to the tight creamy head that fermenting under pressure gives you. I use a blowoff tube at first, just to visually confirm that fermentation has started, and my Tilt sitting in the wort strts showing a drop, agrees. I then set my Kegland spunding regulator to around 15-16 psi.
I stopped using 34/70 the past year. It does not produce Lagers as good as S-189. Trust me, use fermentis S-189, do NOT crash cool (let it slowly cool down to lagering temps 32-39), hold at low temp for 4-6 weeks (the hardest part)

Thanks for the tips! I've yet to try a spunding, and my soul cringes at the thought of the real lagering process (time).

 

[bloombrews]

Thanks for the tips! I've yet to try a spunding, and my soul cringes at the thought of the real lagering process (time).

The Process is the easy part..... Looking at a tank for 6 weeks with beer in it, and not drinking it, is the real cringe!
Fermentrack, BrewPi Remix, and Tiltbridge, here on HBT makes the process soooooo smoooth!

 

[ExpatPete]

@balrog
I have brewed many Lagers, and would never NOT ferment without a Spund on the tank. There is no comparison, to the tight creamy head that fermenting under pressure gives you. I use a blowoff tube at first, just to visually confirm that fermentation has started, and my Tilt sitting in the wort strts showing a drop, agrees. I then set my Kegland spunding regulator to around 15-16 psi.
I stopped using 34/70 the past year. It does not produce Lagers as good as S-189. Trust me, use fermentis S-189, do NOT crash cool (let it slowly cool down to lagering temps 32-39), hold at low temp for 4-6 weeks (the hardest part)

I had never heard of S-189 before this. A Swiss Lager Yeast, I will have to give that a try next lager. I know Brulosophy is a bit controversial on these forums, but they did a comparison between the versitle W-34/70 and S-189 and could detect little of no difference. I still want to try it though just to have another option.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/12/15/y...w-3470-vs-saflager-s-189-exbeeriment-results/

And I also like presure fermenting my lagers now that I have my FermZilla which makes it easy to do.

 

[balrog]

The Process is the easy part..... Looking at a tank for 6 weeks with beer in it, and not drinking it, is the real cringe!
Fermentrack, BrewPi Remix, and Tiltbridge, here on HBT makes the process soooooo smoooth!

Yeah, the 6 weeks of the process is the cringe part for me.

 

[dmtaylor]

I find that when I split a batch to try two different yeasts side by side, I can always taste differences which are usually pretty obvious. Anyone interested should try this for yourself, and not rely on Brulosophy alone, or single batches alone, but split the wort into two identical fermenters and try both yeasts for a true side by side comparison of the finished beers. I strongly encourage this.

 

[Miraculix]

I find that when I split a batch to try two different yeasts side by side, I can always taste differences which are usually pretty obvious. Anyone interested should try this for yourself, and not rely on Brulosophy alone, or single batches alone, but split the wort into two identical fermenters and try both yeasts for a true side by side comparison of the finished beers. I strongly encourage this.

I couldn't agree more. Only one more thing, do a blind test with it. It's very interesting how "obvious" things suddenly disappear and new things come to the front which were somehow hiding before.

 

[mashdar]

I had never heard of S-189 before this. A Swiss Lager Yeast, I will have to give that a try next lager. I know Brulosophy is a bit controversial on these forums, but they did a comparison between the versitle W-34/70 and S-189 and could detect little of no difference. I still want to try it though just to have another option.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/12/15/y...w-3470-vs-saflager-s-189-exbeeriment-results/

And I also like presure fermenting my lagers now that I have my FermZilla which makes it easy to do.

Don't confuse lack of significance for evidence of no difference. You'll notice most of their "insignificant" results are p<0.5. In the aggregate, they're missing positive results.

Re S-189, it seems very similar to W-34/70 to me, but didn't seem to form as stable a yeast cake. But it's well established that different people are sensitive to different aromas/flavors. (Ask any high level beer judge.) I wouldn't doubt that there's something W-34/70 makes that some people don't care for.

 

[bloombrews]

I had never heard of S-189 before this. A Swiss Lager Yeast, I will have to give that a try next lager. I know Brulosophy is a bit controversial on these forums, but they did a comparison between the versitle W-34/70 and S-189 and could detect little of no difference. I still want to try it though just to have another option.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/12/15/y...w-3470-vs-saflager-s-189-exbeeriment-results/

And I also like presure fermenting my lagers now that I have my FermZilla which makes it easy to do.

@ExpatPete, I have found the S-189 to drop brite faster than other lager yeasts, including 34/70
I also noticed a cleaner finished beer, since I do not filter any of my beers. I do send the beer from the Unitanks to Brite tanks, and the S-189 sparkles clear faster by at least 1 week.
Fermenting under pressure is in my opinion, the best way to get a beer with a very creamy head that laces the glass, after every sip ! One exception is the Weizen Bier, that I open ferment the first 3 days and then close up the tank and continue under about 15 psi

 

[Saunassa]

Needed a Marzen, split batch virtually same hops, but fermented one with novalager and other with 34/70. Kept fermentation temp mid 60s and then kegged in fridge 5 weeks.
Served at our fall harvest brew fest. People liked both but the most popular was the 34/70.
They were both better after kegged and refrigerated 3 months.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

So I went with s189 for my helles, set my spunding valve to 12psi (my fermenter max is 15psi) and temp st 64f. Been sitting there for 2 weeks and the spunding valve stopped hissing maybe a week ago.. I'm thinking I'll pull a sample and see if it's ready, then I'll drop 2 degrees each day til I get it down to temp. Might throw some gelatin in before dropping temp.

 

[Halfakneecap]

So I went with s189 for my helles, set my spunding valve to 12psi (my fermenter max is 15psi) and temp st 64f. Been sitting there for 2 weeks and the spunding valve stopped hissing maybe a week ago.. I'm thinking I'll pull a sample and see if it's ready, then I'll drop 2 degrees each day til I get it down to temp. Might throw some gelatin in before dropping temp.

S189 drops pretty clear, pretty quicky on it's own.

 

[bloombrews]

So I went with s189 for my helles, set my spunding valve to 12psi (my fermenter max is 15psi) and temp st 64f. Been sitting there for 2 weeks and the spunding valve stopped hissing maybe a week ago.. I'm thinking I'll pull a sample and see if it's ready, then I'll drop 2 degrees each day til I get it down to temp. Might throw some gelatin in before dropping temp.

Exactly! @bailey mountain brewer . Slow drop down to , as cold as you can get it near 32F
Try your best not to drink it before it is done lagering (4-6 weeks) at cold temperatures. I can only get to 41-42F in my walk in cooler and also my Ice Max-2 (39-41), so I try not to drink it till 5-6 weeks, due to "warmer" than 32F possible.
You MUST also try adding 8 ounces Victory and 1.5 lbs Vienna (11 gallon batch) in your Lagers and Kolsch. This came from beerandbrewing.com recent magazine recipe, and it is a "game-changer" for slam-ability, and I want MORE.
Adding those grains sounded "strange" by not using 100% pilsner malt, but I will never brew a lager again without those small additions.
S-189 Yeast ROCKS! I just got done lagering a Czech Pilsner (with Victory n Vienna small touch, 100% SAAZ with also dry-hopping for 3 days addition) and it is the best ever to date!

 

[bloombrews]

So I went with s189 for my helles, set my spunding valve to 12psi (my fermenter max is 15psi) and temp st 64f. Been sitting there for 2 weeks and the spunding valve stopped hissing maybe a week ago.. I'm thinking I'll pull a sample and see if it's ready, then I'll drop 2 degrees each day til I get it down to temp. Might throw some gelatin in before dropping temp.

As @Halfakneecap said, S-189 drops clean and brite on its own. I skipped gelatin recently and after 5 weeks lagering, its beautiful brite!

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Thanks @bloombrews and @Halfakneecap that's exactly what I'll do then, and I'll adjust my next lagers grain bill to add the Vienna and victory... this one did have a touch of munich malt. Also, I can get my fermenter down to about 36 to 38 before kegging.

 

[bloombrews]

Thanks @bloombrews and @Halfakneecap that's exactly what I'll do then, and I'll adjust my next lagers grain bill to add the Vienna and victory... this one did have a touch of munich malt. Also, I can get my fermenter down to about 36 to 38 before kegging.

@bailey mountain brewer ,The small additions came from beerandbrewing magazine Helles recipe. You will love the results with S-189 if you have great temperature control.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

@bailey mountain brewer ,The small additions came from beerandbrewing magazine Helles recipe. You will love the results with S-189 if you have great temperature control.

Great! I'm looking forward to this beer and will put that in my notes for the next batch.

Edit- I have good temp control, I run a glycol chiller with my conical fermenters.

 

[bloombrews]

Great! I'm looking forward to this beer and will put that in my notes for the next batch.

Edit- I have good temp control, I run a glycol chiller with my conical fermenters.

I use Fermentrack temperature/software control, here on HBT. I was using BrewPi Remix also here on HBT, but ran into some issues when running multiple fermentors ("Chambers") at the same time. Fermentrack is bulletproof. Also use Tiltbridge to log my Tilt hydrometers in the tanks.
The slow 2F/per day cool-down to lager does not shock the yeast as a cold-crash does, and the beer will very happily lager super well.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I brewed a Munich Dunkel on Monday and it's currently fermenting with 34/70, somewhat warmish. I pitched the yeast at 63°f and it continued to chill overnight to 56.2°. Tuesday the morning after I woke up I let it free rise to about 66°-67° where it's been happily bubbling away. OG was 1.055, and it's already down to 1.013. BS3 estimated a FG of 1.010, so it's getting close.

 

[Yesfan]

Brew Dudes did a comparison of W34/70, S-23, and S-189 recently.

 

[sweetcell]

made my annual pilsner/blond a few weeks ago: a SMaSH with Mecca Peleton & some old Mandarina Bavaria. got lower OG than expected, i believe in part because my grains are over 2 years old. had to use 34/70 as it was a last-minute opportunity to brew and couldn't get any Diamond in time, which i was hoping to use. woodshop was pretty cold so fermented around 57*F, eventually ramping up to around 64.

might be a few weeks before i can brew the doppelbock, so i'll probably add some fresh yeast to the cakes i saved from the pilsner batches. this second half of my annual lager brew will likely be a true warm ferment, given ambient temps these days..

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Did a simple Helles, 10-gal batch. Split it and warm pressure (WP) fermented (8-12lbs, 65 degrees) and cold fermented (no pressure, 52 degrees), both for 14 days using Nova Lager. When the cold fermented raised for diacetyl rest, lowered the WP to this temp, then crashed both together and kegged. Sat in my keezer for 10-weeks under the same pressure. Took samples to my club meeting, did a three way test. 9 folks took the test, 2 BJCP Certified Judges, 2 Pro Brewers, 2 homebrewers and 3 avid beer drinkers. 2 samples of the cold lager and one of the WP were given out. 5 correctly picked out the WP being the different beer. Also asked, which beer they want to drink more of and that was pretty split. Unfortunately, some folks put down multiple numbers. Next time I'll be clear to put only one. Got to tell you, I was very impressed with the WP. It's a great beer. I'm a die hard lager fan and lager brewer. I always cold ferment, because I can and I'm not in a hurry to get it on tap (well, try not to be.) The reason I waited 10-weeks to do the test was the club only meets once a month and the previous meetings had too much going on to get people focused. Nothing statistical here, but an interesting test and had fun doing it. Nova Lager does a good clean lager.

 

[Miraculix]

Did a simple Helles, 10-gal batch. Split it and warm pressure (WP) fermented (8-12lbs, 65 degrees) and cold fermented (no pressure, 52 degrees), both for 14 days using Nova Lager. When the cold fermented raised for diacetyl rest, lowered the WP to this temp, then crashed both together and kegged. Sat in my keezer for 10-weeks under the same pressure. Took samples to my club meeting, did a three way test. 9 folks took the test, 2 BJCP Certified Judges, 2 Pro Brewers, 2 homebrewers and 3 avid beer drinkers. 2 samples of the cold lager and one of the WP were given out. 5 correctly picked out the WP being the different beer. Also asked, which beer they want to drink more of and that was pretty split. Unfortunately, some folks put down multiple numbers. Next time I'll be clear to put only one. Got to tell you, I was very impressed with the WP. It's a great beer. I'm a die hard lager fan and lager brewer. I always cold ferment, because I can and I'm not in a hurry to get it on tap (well, try not to be.) The reason I waited 10-weeks to do the test was the club only meets once a month and the previous meetings had too much going on to get people focused. Nothing statistical here, but an interesting test and had fun doing it. Nova Lager does a good clean lager.

Nice one! Thanks for sharing the results!

 

[DuncB]

Would be interesting to repeat the same test at your brewclub next meet and see if there was any correlation!

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Would be interesting to repeat the same test at your brewclub next meet and see if there was any correlation!

Good idea, just not sure I can hold everyone's attention that long again . I'm taking it to my other club later this month and will post results. I also asked what was the main reason used for the precieved different - aroma, visual, flavor or table talk? Also, which beer would you prefer to have another or drink more of? Unfortunately, I didn't specify to only select one for each of these, so most gave multiple check marks or answers.

 

[bloombrews]

Did a simple Helles, 10-gal batch. Split it and warm pressure (WP) fermented (8-12lbs, 65 degrees) and cold fermented (no pressure, 52 degrees), both for 14 days using Nova Lager. When the cold fermented raised for diacetyl rest, lowered the WP to this temp, then crashed both together and kegged. Sat in my keezer for 10-weeks under the same pressure. Took samples to my club meeting, did a three way test. 9 folks took the test, 2 BJCP Certified Judges, 2 Pro Brewers, 2 homebrewers and 3 avid beer drinkers. 2 samples of the cold lager and one of the WP were given out. 5 correctly picked out the WP being the different beer. Also asked, which beer they want to drink more of and that was pretty split. Unfortunately, some folks put down multiple numbers. Next time I'll be clear to put only one. Got to tell you, I was very impressed with the WP. It's a great beer. I'm a die hard lager fan and lager brewer. I always cold ferment, because I can and I'm not in a hurry to get it on tap (well, try not to be.) The reason I waited 10-weeks to do the test was the club only meets once a month and the previous meetings had too much going on to get people focused. Nothing statistical here, but an interesting test and had fun doing it. Nova Lager does a good clean lager.

My Lagers always seem to evaporate somehow from my Brite Tanks after about 4-5 weeks..... Not sure how you manage 10 weeks?
I have recently had the best Lagers I ever made with Fermentis S-189, RO water with mineral additions to get what I want for a Pils or Helles.
I will have to try Nova Lager, if I can find it some day.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I'm more than happy with both S189 and S23 at 14-15c.

I'm really interested to know if anyone has fermented WLP940 Mex lager yeast warmer than cold ? I love this yeast, but always brew with it at cold temps ( 10c ).

My fermentation fridge is dying, so 14-15c is the coldest it is getting.

I have a sachet in my beer fridge that's been there a while. I can't find any info on this yeast warmer than standard lager fermentation temps.

I probably should just do it.