Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[CascadesBrewer]

Novalager is a great WF lager yeast; their major selling point is absolutely NO sulfur production

To clarify, the claim from Lallemand is:
"utilizes patented technology from the University of California Davis (USA) that inhibits the production of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) off-flavors"

My warm fermented NovaLager (at 15 PSI in a keg at around 70F) did have a noticeable amount of "sulfur" that took a while to clean up. The rep from Lallemand said that NovaLager does not produce hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell), but it will produce sulfur dioxide (match stick smell).

 

[balrog]

To clarify, the claim from Lallemand is:
"utilizes patented technology from the University of California Davis (USA) that inhibits the production of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) off-flavors"

My warm fermented NovaLager (at 15 PSI in a keg at around 70F) did have a noticeable amount of "sulfur" that took a while to clean up. The rep from Lallemand said that NovaLager does not produce hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell), but it will produce sulfur dioxide (match stick smell).

OH!
Well.
RainBOWS.

 

[DuncB]

What is this thing you call a phone book? Perhaps it is like a catalog showing all the thousands of different phones available...

Something similar to a yellow pages ( useful if the internet fails I've heard).

 

[seatazzz]

Something similar to a yellow pages ( useful if the internet fails I've heard).

With the proliferation of cell phones in this day and age, most people I know don't even have a landline anymore; we do, because our internet/cable provider gives us a discount if we have it. Husband uses it to call his parents. Before I got my amazon echo thing, I used it to find my cell phone wherever I had left it in the house. So I bet a current white pages phone book would be pretty thin. I don't even know if they print them anymore. Nor do I know who (besides xfinity) provides landline service that isn't VOIP.

 

[DuncB]

With the proliferation of cell phones in this day and age, most people I know don't even have a landline anymore; we do, because our internet/cable provider gives us a discount if we have it. Husband uses it to call his parents. Before I got my amazon echo thing, I used it to find my cell phone wherever I had left it in the house. So I bet a current white pages phone book would be pretty thin. I don't even know if they print them anymore. Nor do I know who (besides xfinity) provides landline service that isn't VOIP.

Strangely we got a telephone directory delivered the other week. It was about 1/2 an inch thick which says a lot.
Although I haven't read it all!!

 

[balrog]

Strangely we got a telephone directory delivered the other week. It was about 1/2 an inch thick which says a lot.
Although I haven't read it all!!

Keep it for your next filibuster!
And for keeping the cloth napkins flat in the drawer!
Holding the rear screen door open in the Spring!
Tilting the edge of the carboy while transferring!

So many uses.

[Oops, New Zealand. So, no filibusters, and Fall instead of Spring. Sorry bout that.]

 

[fluketamer]

side by side

i usually brew 2.25 gal batches im the only one who drinks my homebrew so it fits me well. other things have cramped my brewing time so i descided to scale up to 4.5 gallon batches and brew less often. with this increased wort i descided to do split batch and ferment half of it at 54-56 in my ferm chamber and the other at 65-67 in my swamp cooler in the cellar that i usually use for ales/stouts.

i love lallemand diamond lager yeast . it makes a very clean crisp beer for me especially low malt lagers and pilsners with no off flavors. it spits out a bunch of sulfer at first and usually cleans up nicely at dar rest, i found it much cleaner then s23.

this batch i repitched slurry from previous batch. both were warmed to 70 degrees on day 11 for 3 days before kegging.



the warm one exploded and was done on day 5 but i waited to package it so the cold batch could finish up so i could keg them at the same time .

fun experiment so far the only differrence at kegging that the warm one seems a little more hop forward and not as light in color.

the yeast had no problem fermenting the sugar at the higher temp and i dont detect any phenols or off flavors at all. no banana or bandaid etc. the website says that ideal is 54-59 i think and it does warn that warmer temperatures will lead to the creation of mutant yeast strains that may produce unwanted flavors.
so far so good .

this is very good for me my summers get too hot to brew lagers as my temp control keeps going off and on too much and usually burns out the little compressors in a dorm fridge in one summer. if i can brew this beer at 65 degrees it will make my life easier. and keep me in homebrew year round.
thanks for the info on this thread. i doubt i would have tried lager yeast at ale temps.

 

[ncbrewer]

I hope you will report on how it goes when these beers are finished. I'm especially interested in whether the warm fermented version is as crisp as the cold fermented version. You didn't mention lagering - will you be lagering one or both of these?

 

[fluketamer]

the only lagering my lagers do is when i dont finish the keg in the first few weeks. i drink them very fresh cause they are so good. and i cant wait usually . i will be sampling a glass tonight after only 48 hrs in the keg. both batches are now at 35 degrees . fortunatley i have 4 gallons in the kegerator now and it will take me quite a while to kick these kegs. so in a few weeks i guess i can say they were lagered? lol . but thanks for the reply i will def let you guys know if the cold one is cleaner/ crisper. and i will figure out how to post pint pics to compare

 

[DuncB]

@fluketamer
Sounds like it's working well for you, I've not tried these warm lager yeasts but have just gone down the pressure fermenting with a very clean kveik yeast such as opshaug, you'd be fine with that up to 30 celsius or a bit more and it drops clean really well.

 

[fluketamer]

i know its very early but the 48 hr sample clearly shows a difference between the two beers very hard to explain. i can tell the cold fermented one will be great in a week and tastes like it always does. the warm tastes different not bad but def different and not as good or at least not what im use to it tasting like . im hoping time will change this.

 

[sweetcell]

there i was, doing the first half of my annual blond-and-doppel spring lager brews (starting with a classic pilsner, 100% Mecca pils and german saaz - a SMaSH!)

brewed 10 gal of doppelbock yesterday, 50% Mecca pils & 50% Mecca munich, OG 1.083. i racked the pilsners to kegs then pitched the doppel directly on top of the yeast cake, no cleaning/sanitation/etc. pitched at 56*F, has warmed a degree in the first 24 hours - i expect it to continue slowly rising, woodshop isn't as cool as it was a few weeks ago.

are there any potential risks with over-pitching a lager, specifically a doppel? 6 hours after adding the wort to the fermentors i had full-on fermentation - looked like fermentation had been going on for some time already. i'm guessing that the whole yeast cake from a previous batch, plus an extra quarter of another cake, was more than required

 

[Miraculix]

Brewing 18l of simple lager atm. About 20 Ibus, OG 1.04, pilsner malt + a bit of Mo because I did not have enough pilsner. 1/3 Mittelfrüh/Saaz first wort hops, boiled for 45 minutes. Mashed at 71C, Mangrove Jack california Lager. Let's see!

....wanted to open a small beer to have something to drink while brewing... must have grabbed the wrong bottle, turned out to be the 12% barley wine... well... could be worse .

 

[Miraculix]

brewed 10 gal of doppelbock yesterday, 50% Mecca pils & 50% Mecca munich, OG 1.083. i racked the pilsners to kegs then pitched the doppel directly on top of the yeast cake, no cleaning/sanitation/etc. pitched at 56*F, has warmed a degree in the first 24 hours - i expect it to continue slowly rising, woodshop isn't as cool as it was a few weeks ago.

are there any potential risks with over-pitching a lager, specifically a doppel? 6 hours after adding the wort to the fermentors i had full-on fermentation - looked like fermentation had been going on for some time already. i'm guessing that the whole yeast cake from a previous batch, plus an extra quarter of another cake, was more than required

There is no such thing as a lager overpitch, if you ask me.

 

[fluketamer]

side by side

im happy to report that the warm fermented version of my house lager is very good. it caught up nicely to the cold fermented one and they taste almost the same the cold one is more crisp and cleaner but its very minimal and in no way takes away from the beer. swimbo actually likes the warm one better saying it has more flavor????

i will definately brew this again on the warm side. as it is perfectly drinkable lager
and doesnt require anything more than a swamp cooler in a 70 degree room

very happy with these results with the diamond lallemand lager yeast at 66 degrees

love these boards

cheers

 

[Miraculix]

I'm having a simple 80/20 pilsner/mo pale (ran out of pilsner) 1.04 OG, 20 ibus lager in ther fermenter right now. Saaz and Mittelfrüh as first wort hops. I guess you could call it a session helles. Yeast is MJ California Lager. This yeast is a slow starter and slow fermenter.... Took over a day to see first bubbles and now it is slooowly bubbling along. I am used to have more action in my fermenter, especially at room temperature. Let's hope that the yeast will give me a clear finish.

 

[sweetcell]

There is no such thing as a lager overpitch, if you ask me.

the doppels "naturally" & steadily rose to 64*F over 3 days, and activity was noticeably calmer by then. on the morning of day 4, very little activity. i'll wait another day then maybe ramp up a few degrees to ensure everything gets cleaned up.

forgot to mention: i left the country for 12 days, so my pilsners spent two weeks cold-crashing in my serving fridge. talk about a compacted yeast cake and a clean transfer!

 

[Miraculix]

I'm having a simple 80/20 pilsner/mo pale (ran out of pilsner) 1.04 OG, 20 ibus lager in ther fermenter right now. Saaz and Mittelfrüh as first wort hops. I guess you could call it a session helles. Yeast is MJ California Lager. This yeast is a slow starter and slow fermenter.... Took over a day to see first bubbles and now it is slooowly bubbling along. I am used to have more action in my fermenter, especially at room temperature. Let's hope that the yeast will give me a clear finish.

Came out beautifully like a good Hefeweizen should. Not much fruit and banana but a healthy dose of clove.

...... only problem is, it should have been a lager and not a Hefeweizen! There is no wheat inside and the yeast should have been clean. Infection!


Anyway, I bretted about half of the bottles with BR 8 and let's see where this leads us. Apart from the clove the beer was clean. The yeast had a VERY slow start, took two or three days to get going, won't use MJ California Lager again, that was it's last chance.

I am very curious if the brett does something with the clove aroma or if it will stay. There is not much yeast expression to mess around with, but the clove is there.

 

[TomSellers]

won't use MJ California Lager again, that was it's last chance.

Interesting, I just experienced something very similar using the other MJ Bavarian Lager Yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting, I just experienced something very similar using the other MJ Bavarian Lager Yeast.

Good to know. I think I will avoid mangrove Jack from now on. Still have some of their mead yeast flying around ... Gave me quite high levels of fusels in one of the recent batches. Not undrinkable but you recognise it latest the next day. I do not like that yeast either. From now on it's the original brands for me. Already ordered some W15 for the next mead. Next wf lager will be 3470 again.

 

[TomSellers]

I have one packet of MJ California Lager left, guess I'll avoid using it as well.

 

[Miraculix]

I have one packet of MJ California Lager left, guess I'll avoid using it as well.

Throw it away...

 

[seatazzz]

Brewed up the House WF lager recipe yesterday (50/50 pilsner/two row), and it's now fermenting under 15psi pressure at 68°, on 34/70. Very sad that I can't see fermentation, but a quick twist of the spunding valve lets me smell it. It's going, and going well. Today being Mother's Day, and I deserve a present, ordered the 7.9g Fermzilla from Morebeer. Steal of a deal at $123.99 (although it's shipping from Pennsylvania, won't be here until the 22nd).

 

[Chetbrews]

Came out beautifully like a good Hefeweizen should. Not much fruit and banana but a healthy dose of clove.

...... only problem is, it should have been a lager and not a Hefeweizen! There is no wheat inside and the yeast should have been clean. Infection!


Anyway, I bretted about half of the bottles with BR 8 and let's see where this leads us. Apart from the clove the beer was clean. The yeast had a VERY slow start, took two or three days to get going, won't use MJ California Lager again, that was it's last chance.

I am very curious if the brett does something with the clove aroma or if it will stay. There is not much yeast expression to mess around with, but the clove is there.

I had this exact same experience! I looked back at my brew logs and I did a batch of beer about 4 years ago with Mangrove Jack's M54 California Lager yeast. I figure I had good experience with using 34/70 at higher temps that I wanted to give it a try with the the MJ Lager yeast. It tasted like a Hefeweizen.

 

[Miraculix]

I had this exact same experience! I looked back at my brew logs and I did a batch of beer about 4 years ago with Mangrove Jack's M54 California Lager yeast. I figure I had good experience with using 34/70 at higher temps that I wanted to give it a try with the the MJ Lager yeast. It tasted like a Hefeweizen.

Wow, that is interesting to hear. Maybe it wasn't an infection but the yeast itself?

 

[Chetbrews]

Wow, that is interesting to hear. Maybe it wasn't an infection but the yeast itself?

Yeah, other homebrewers told me I must have accidentally used a Hefeweizen yeast but I'm positive I used the M54 yeast as I purchased it after hearing other people's good results with it. I might try it again to see if I get different results but it will be on a small batch of beer.

 

[balrog]

I have been holding a sachet of MJ54 for a while.
I despise clove in beer. It's just me.
I will not hold any longer.

 

[mashpaddled]

Yeah, other homebrewers told me I must have accidentally used a Hefeweizen yeast but I'm positive I used the M54 yeast as I purchased it after hearing other people's good results with it. I might try it again to see if I get different results but it will be on a small batch of beer.

You can get banana out of some lager yeast when fermented out of their comfort zone. That's true of a lot of yeast, actually. Most people just don't want that flavor outside of a hefeweizen or certain Belgian beers.

 

[Chetbrews]

I would be willing to try it again, I had the thought that maybe this is a strain that really needs to stay in the mid to high 50s.

You can get banana out of some lager yeast when fermented out of their comfort zone. That's true of a lot of yeast, actually. Most people just don't want that flavor outside of a hefeweizen or certain Belgian beers.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you get clove from a lager yeast it got contaminated.

 

[seatazzz]

This morning tested the WF lager I fermented under pressure in a keg. Brewed it on Sunday; today, Wednesday, it's down to 1.009 and tastes great, just a slight tang from the yeast still in suspension. No sulfur, no fruitiness, just gonna be a good beer. Started it crashing and will transfer to a serving keg tomorrow night. Should be mostly carbonated (poured a ton of foam for the tester) so just a couple days on serving pressure should see it ready. Very pleased with this little experiment.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

This is on my next to brew list, I have a basic American lager recipe I'm going to brew for an upcoming event and don't have time to lager properly. So it's a 15 gallon batch, gonna use 34/70 I'm debating if I should ferment under pressure, I max out at 15psi in my fermenter. I can run at any temp. This being my first go at it I'm curious what the differences are between fermenting at 60f with no pressure vs 68f under pressure.. seems I've read good results from both, if no pressure I assume a diacetyl rest around 64f? I have a little over a month from brew day which will be this Saturday. If it makes any difference I also plan to use gelatin fining before kegging. Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[Miraculix]

This is on my next to brew list, I have a basic American lager recipe I'm going to brew for an upcoming event and don't have time to lager properly. So it's a 15 gallon batch, gonna use 34/70 I'm debating if I should ferment under pressure, I max out at 15psi in my fermenter. I can run at any temp. This being my first go at it I'm curious what the differences are between fermenting at 60f with no pressure vs 68f under pressure.. seems I've read good results from both, if no pressure I assume a diacetyl rest around 64f? I have a little over a month from brew day which will be this Saturday. If it makes any difference I also plan to use gelatin fining before kegging. Any suggestions appreciated.

Higher temperature should be quicker and with pressure it should be cleaner. So I'd go with combining both.

 

[SacSudz]

I'm going to be brewing a lager using SafLager W-34/70. My fermintation at room temperature is about 72 degrees.

What I do is place it in a shower stall in our house that isn't used. It's my most stable temperature location. What I'd like to do is put a reusable ice block on the floor with a fan blowing over it in the shower stall. I could replace the ice block a couple times a day to keep it cool. I think by doing this I can keep it within the ideal temperature range.

My question is this though, I can certainly do this for 4-5 days durning active fermentation. But once that is completed what are your thoughts on stopping the ice blocks and letting the temp warm back up to 72? Is it likely I could still get off flavors after active fermentation is completed by letting it finish off at a higher temp?

 

[balrog]

I believe temp control really only matters during lag (multiplication) phase and active fermentation phase, after 3-4 days you can let it do whatever. After I see the exothermic part of the fermentation I typically ramp up temp to discourage floccing, or let it go ambient.

 

[sweetcell]

But once that is completed what are your thoughts on stopping the ice blocks and letting the temp warm back up to 72? Is it likely I could still get off flavors after active fermentation is completed by letting it finish off at a higher temp?

yup, i'd be comfortable with that - good plan IMO.

i'm not sure how much cooling you'll get from blowing air over an ice pack and on to your fermentor - seems very inefficient, most of the cooling would be lost to the environment. depending on the type of fermentor you use, i'm a fan of the cold bath method: put the vessel in a tub/big pot/trash can/etc, put some water so that it goes part way up the fermentor, and add ice/ice packs/soda bottles with frozen water/etc. to the water bath. ice cools the water, which in turn cools the fermentor. for further cooling, put a t-shirt or towel over the fermentor to wick up the water and blow a fan over that.

 

[SacSudz]

Great idea! I definitely put a wet towel over it too.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I did my first WF lager and BIAB batch on 5/3. I brewed a 20g batch and split it with 3 yeasts. S-23, S-189, and 34/70. Fermentation started at 63 and left outside in 40 ambient. Moved it to a stairwell in another house with no heat. Fermentation slowly made it to 68 after 3 days and stayed there. I was surprised tonight to see both batches were at 1.008, OG 1.050. The S-23 is a bit too fruity and has a slick full mouthfeel. I doubt I’ll use that yeast again. The 189 and 34/70 are both fantastic. I’m sure with a month of cold conditioning they will be great. I’d say I’m liking the 189 slightly more than the 34/70. Wort was super cloudy, but cleared nicely after fermentation. I was really surprised at the clarity. 23 didn’t clear as much, maybe it will after conditioning. I can see me doing another WF again in the future. Plus BIAB cut 2.5hrs off my normal brew day.

 

[ba-brewer]

I did my first WF lager and BIAB batch on 5/3. I brewed a 20g batch and split it with 3 yeasts. S-33, S-189, and 34/70. Fermentation started at 63 and left outside in 40 ambient. Moved it to a stairwell in another house with no heat. Fermentation slowly made it to 68 after 3 days and stayed there. I was surprised tonight to see both batches were at 1.008, OG 1.050. The S-33 is a bit too fruity and has a slick full mouthfeel. I doubt I’ll use that yeast again. The 189 and 34/70 are both fantastic. I’m sure with a month of cold conditioning they will be great. I’d say I’m liking the 189 slightly more than the 34/70. Wort was super cloudy, but cleared nicely after fermentation. I was really surprised at the clarity. 33 didn’t clear as much, maybe it will after conditioning. I can see me doing another WF again in the future. Plus BIAB cut 2.5hrs off my normal brew day.

Did you really use s-33 or did you mean S-23?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Good catch, S-23 was what I used. Post has been edited, thanks.