Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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nathanscrivener

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Nice. 2 packs of 34/70 for 5 gallons?
According to the Fermentis pilot study, at 64F, assuming it is a "standard" strength wort, 1 pack is enough. It makes sense that if fermenting at ale temps, ale pitch rates are all that should be necessary.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Just to confirm, 100g / hL is equivalent to 2 standard packs per 5 gallon brew, not 4 as stated. The pilot study results demonstrate that 1 pack of yeast will ferment cleanly at between 61F and 68F for a 5 gallon batch, as long as the SG is around 1.048.
Gah, sorry about that - obviously it's 1g/l so 18.9 grams in 5 US gallons.
 

seatazzz

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So I was just reading the thread about Authentic German Beers...and something struck me. One of the posts said you can't get the true "crisp" lager taste/flavor with warm fermentation (assuming using yeast intended for lagers). I've done only two "true" cold-fermented lagers, the rest (and I'm up in the mid teens now) have been warm-fermented, from 60 to as high as 66. With the rare exception of a few that have gone south because of my own errors, I always get the nice crisp lager 'bite' with them. It's a hard sensation to explain; not exactly bitterness, not carbonic, but something that a lager has that an ale doesn't, that is there because of the yeast; not from the hops or grain bill. Brulosophy has done several exbeeriments with warm vs cold fermented lagers, and the results are mostly inconclusive.

So why do we still consider "cold" ferment lagers to be superior? I do admit, that once my 'warm' fermented lagers are essentially finished, they get some lagering time in the keg, but is that really "lagering" (in the true sense of the word, meaning it is still fermenting out) or just chilling? Just curious about what others (looking at you @applescrap!) have experienced. Last year I did a side-by-side of two lagers that I brewed both ways; and I liked the 'warm' fermented one better. Thoughts?
 

guiriguiri

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Sorry if I've missed it discussed elsewhere in the thread but has anyone tried making Kveik lagers? I'm planning to try with Hothead yeast (Oslo seems to be out of production at the moment) since my basement stays around 75 these days.
 

Snark_Wolf_Brewing

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Sorry if I've missed it discussed elsewhere in the thread but has anyone tried making Kveik lagers? I'm planning to try with Hothead yeast (Oslo seems to be out of production at the moment) since my basement stays around 75 these days.
I'd really like to try kveik at some point. It seems pretty interesting. The Basic Homebrewing Channel on Youtube did a video on it. James brewed what he called an Oslo Pilsner in 2 days, fermenting at 98 degrees.

 

nathanscrivener

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I'd love to try that but can't get oslo in New Zealand, as far as I can tell. I did make a nice crisp ale with dried voss kveik, lovely orange and grapefruit flavours and aroma.
 

Northern_Brewer

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There's a dedicated thread for Oslo over here.

Wicklow have produced a knockoff - err, completely-independently found a very similar yeast - which they sell as Ubbe, which is pretty widely available from UK retailers, I don't know what their distribution is like elsewhere.
 

seatazzz

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I just did an IPA with Kveiking (Imperial's three-yeast blend), first three days at 80+, and am eminently happy with it. From all I've read, however, these don't do great at the lower temperatures (correct me if I'm wrong). Although I do warm-fermented lagers I am a bit of a traditionalist and would rather use lager yeast. Unless they come up with a Kveik strain for lagers....
 

seatazzz

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I just did an IPA with Kveiking (Imperial's three-yeast blend), first three days at 80+, and am eminently happy with it. From all I've read, however, these don't do great at the lower temperatures (correct me if I'm wrong). Although I do warm-fermented lagers I am a bit of a traditionalist and would rather use lager yeast. Unless they come up with a Kveik strain for lagers....
And I should have waited to reply until I watched the video. Oslo will apparently make a lager; maybe not what we would term a "traditional" lager, but something close. From what those guys were saying the Tradition hops just didn't come through well enough. So what if someone did this with, say, Saaz or Tettnanger? I'm thinking a heavier dose of Saaz at 60 (maybe 1.5 or 2oz for a 5 gallon batch) and something like a Mittelfruh or Blanc at flameout. Dammit now I want some Oslo yeast.
 

Snark_Wolf_Brewing

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And I should have waited to reply until I watched the video. Oslo will apparently make a lager; maybe not what we would term a "traditional" lager, but something close. From what those guys were saying the Tradition hops just didn't come through well enough. So what if someone did this with, say, Saaz or Tettnanger? I'm thinking a heavier dose of Saaz at 60 (maybe 1.5 or 2oz for a 5 gallon batch) and something like a Mittelfruh or Blanc at flameout. Dammit now I want some Oslo yeast.
Might be real tasty with some Noble hops like Saaz or Tettnanger with a bit heavier addition.
 

Snark_Wolf_Brewing

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And to have a lager on tap in less than 7 days...I am intrigued.
Totally! I've got an American Pilsner recipe I want to try out at some point. Right now it's a toss up between using Fermentis 34/70 or get my hands on some Oslo and let 'er rip.

10 pounds German Pilsner Malt
1 pound Flaked Maize
mash @150F for 60 minutes
2 ounces Czech Saaz @60 minutes
1 ounce Czech Saaz @ flameout
 

seatazzz

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Totally! I've got an American Pilsner recipe I want to try out at some point. Right now it's a toss up between using Fermentis 34/70 or get my hands on some Oslo and let 'er rip.

10 pounds German Pilsner Malt
1 pound Flaked Maize
mash @150F for 60 minutes
2 ounces Czech Saaz @60 minutes
1 ounce Czech Saaz @ flameout
That recipe looks good! I've used 34/70 a few times but as a yeast slurry saver, I don't like it after 3 generations. I'm thinking the Oslo will last longer, don't ask my why I think so but I do. Gonna get some next LHBS trip.
 

ebbelwoi

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Totally! I've got an American Pilsner recipe I want to try out at some point. Right now it's a toss up between using Fermentis 34/70 or get my hands on some Oslo and let 'er rip.

10 pounds German Pilsner Malt
1 pound Flaked Maize
mash @150F for 60 minutes
2 ounces Czech Saaz @60 minutes
1 ounce Czech Saaz @ flameout
That's exactly the recipe those same guys do in this video on warm-fermented lager:


Except that they forget to do the flameout addition.
 

Snark_Wolf_Brewing

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That's exactly the recipe those same guys do in this video on warm-fermented lager:


Except that they forget to do the flameout addition.
Yeah, it looked like a great recipe, so I jotted it down while watching the clip. Simple grain bill and pretty straight forward hop additions.
 

guiriguiri

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Today I brewed an SMaSH German Pilsner, Saaz with Omega Kveik Hothead yeast (could not get my hands on Oslo and it seems like the next cleanest option). It's fermenting around 78. We'll see if it produces something similar to a lager.
 

rtstrider

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I'm on the warm lager kick right now. I brewed a Sam 76 clone with w34/70. From what I read it seems that you want to pitch cool and let the yeast warm up. I built a 2 liter starter on the stir plate with a single pack of w34/70 (I know I know dry yeast....). It was pitched around 59F and the fermenter was set to 66F. Once the airlock slowed down, and the krausen began dropping, the fermenter was set to 70F. I'll be...It was CLEAN! It's dry hopped in secondary right now. The slurry (1 quart for insurance purposes) was repitched for a warm fermented Helles. I wanted to exbeeriment and try pitching this right under 66F this go around to see if that would affect how clean the yeast is. Going to repitch the slurry again for the Cats Tits Pilsner (it's a recipe here on HBT) and finally the Oztoberfest (another HBT recipe). It seems the main keys from what I've read are pitch a tad cool/let naturally rise to 66F and STEADY temps for the first 3-4 days.
 

rtstrider

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Today I brewed an SMaSH German Pilsner, Saaz with Omega Kveik Hothead yeast (could not get my hands on Oslo and it seems like the next cleanest option). It's fermenting around 78. We'll see if it produces something similar to a lager.
That'll be far from a lager. TBH I don't think that Hothead yeast would play well with that hop/grain bill personally. I brewed a Mosiac/Amarillo hopped brew that was 85% 2 row, 10% c-40, 5% white wheat fermented at 92F with Hothead. I actually drank some last night before responding to this lol That yeast is not clean in a Chico kind of way. In fact I don't think it's clean at all. It's actually pretty fruity and personally I think it'd play better with a fruity combo of hops or fruity hop in general (say a Mosaic smash or something). I took this beer up to a local brewery and they couldn't believe it was fermented at 92F. That yeast floccs VERY well btw and is a VERY fast starter. The good news is you'll definitely end up with beer lol It'll just be a fruity ale with Saaz hops ;)
 

makisupapolice14

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So many posts, I’m sure this has been inquired about several times already. I have a packet of s189 I’m thinking about fermenting warm in a Schwarzbier this weekend. Anyone successfully ferment this in the lower to middle 60s? What was your pitch temp and fermentation schedule?

If it’s a bad idea I have plenty of 34/70 on hand.
I’ve used 34/70 a bunch of times and love the result but I’ve heard good things about s-189 in malty/dark lagers. Thanks in advance.
To circle back i brewed this beer. Single packet non-rehydrated in the low 60s and the end result is very nice! Crisp and clean finish and supports the Maltiness well. Recommended for sure.
D9050DAC-F840-400D-A5C6-747E8EACE9A0.jpeg
 

LokiM4

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To circle back i brewed this beer. Single packet non-rehydrated in the low 60s and the end result is very nice! Crisp and clean finish and supports the Maltiness well. Recommended for sure. View attachment 686978
The folks at Brulosophy have used S-189 at traditional Ale fermentation temps in some experiments and had success
 

seatazzz

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Had to dump a really nasty Wit that went south this morning; was counting on it to fill out the pipeline. So had an impromptu WF lager brew session. 11lbs Pilsner, mashed at 152, with Sterling for bittering and what I had left of Hallertau Mittelfruh & Blanc as late additions. Racked it directly onto the yeast cake from the last one that was done cold; even with the yeast starting out at less than 55, it took off like crazy after only 30 minutes. Tonight it's going apesh*t in there. Gonna push this one fast, ten days grain to glass. What, me crazy? Oh hells yes. Want this one to be ready when we and the neighbors kill the current lager keg next weekend.
 

RePete

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Brewed a Dortmunder Export Lager yesterday. Pitched a single pack of dry 34/70, and it had airlock activity within a couple hours. Was going strong by morning. I just have it in on the floor in my basement. Checked the temp a while ago, and it was 72*. I think it’s ok for now. But worried that the temps are supposed to get up into the 90’s here this week.
 

seatazzz

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I have just enough of my cold-fermented lager left to do a side-by-side with the WF one I did last week, which is currently force carbing. Initial taste of the new one is just fine, looking forward to seeing how it compares. The last one has had some lagering time, yes, but should still get a decent impression of them side by side.
 

CaddyWampus

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I tried my 3rd warm fermented lager (2nd with 34/70) today. It’s only been bottle conditioning a week, but I always try my bottled beers a week in.

It Has a bit to go as far as carb goes, but it’s honestly quite good. Only 2 malts and some sugar and very light hopping so there’s not much to hide behind. I get the slight maltiness from using equal parts Munich and Pilsner. Just enough hops to keep it from being sweet. No off flavors that I can detect.

I pitched a little high at around 70f, but cooled it on down to 64f and let it ride until a d rest at 68f 10 days later. I’m 2/2 with 34/70 and “warm” fermenting.
A3202D48-9956-4B8E-9777-3BC4D5F86A3E.jpeg
 

guiriguiri

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Happy to report that my SMaSH pilsner/saaz (following czechvar hopping schedule) with Hothead yeast @78 degrees, made something delicious that passes as a lager. Slight hint of fruitiness if you look for it. Just got an email about a new Lutra Kveik that's designed for clean ferments like this, so that'll be the next thing I try.
 

Sacred Knot Brewing

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Sorry if this was already asked but didn’t feel like digging through 35 pages of replies to look lol..has anyone done a Märzen or Vienna using warm fermentation with 34/70?
 
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applescrap

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I'm planning on doing my first warm fermented lager next weekend. I came across a post on reddit where the poster said they had better results pitching 34/70 around 40F and letting it warm naturally at room temperature. Anyone have experience doing this?
It turns out iirc, and let me know if I am not recalling correctly, that in a general brew advice sense, pitching cold yeast from fridge into warm wort is one of the best ways to pitch dry yeast. Not sure if this is what you are doing or talking about, but wanted to share this little tip. I have confirmed this, once again iirc, with some really masterful brewers. Idk why it works but man it works great. If you are not talking about this, then the reasons behind that reddit users post, as innocent as it seems, delves deeply into the fierce (literally) debate that spawned this thread. I can, as can others here more knowledgeable than me, splay out the rationale behind why brew theory would support his findings.

But that opens this thread up to begin that debate, or continue it better said, and the passion on both sides behind that debate, it takes off like wildfire. This thread needs to remain free of that debate as it will take over and consume the thread for starters. However, seen as a technique if one can get their wort that cold I dont see anything bad that could come out of doing that technique and in general pitching somewhat lower and letting rise is seen as a good practice as once fermentation starts to high it wont lower as the process will keep the heat up. Some, John Palmer for example, have scientific rationale and empirical evidence that brewing this way is the proper and best way. Others, like me, have our own empirical evidence and taste tests, or dont care enough about any slight variation to buy fermentation fridges or other specialized equipment. I am not against that method or discussing it, maybe using a fridge to cool wort, then pitching and letting rise and fermenting warm, but want to make sure that no debate ensues. What would be great is to test this, the batches need to be identical in every way except one is chilled in fridge then yeast pitched and allowed to rise and ferment warm. And one cooled to 64 or whatever and yeast pitched. Then tasted in a blind triangle, you taste two of one and one of the other and then try to pick the odd one out.
 
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applescrap

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Update, after pku I see that you did use fridge to cool and then pitch. Sounds like a good plan. I havent been drinking as much and last batches were founders breakfast stout clone and blue moon clone. My next batch will be light lager. I will update when I brew it. I love brewing it because I can make 10g full volume brewing, biab, in 15g kettle. Maybe I will use glucoamylase and see if I can make something 4 percent using a ridiculously small amount of grain.
 

Sacred Knot Brewing

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Alright guys, once my fermenter opens up I’m going to start a Märzen using warm fermentation method. I’m still new to home brewing so any tips on the recipe I’ve come up with would be much appreciated! The temps listed below are the best I can do. I’m using a pot of cold water with ice packs inside of a cooler bag to control temps.

“Grovetoberfest”
Partial Mash
Batch size: 1 gallon
Boil size: 1.7 gallons
OG: 1.052
FG: 1.009
Total Fermentables: 2.06 lbs
IBUs: Approx 21
SRM: 13.5

Grain bill:
8 oz (24.2%) Munich DME
12 oz (36.4%) Vienna malt
8 oz (24.2%) Dark Munich malt
4 oz (12.1%) CaraMunich I (for color and flavor)
1 oz (3.0%) Carapils (for body and head retention)

Hop schedule:
5g Hallertau mittelfruh @ 60 min
3g Hallertau mittelfruh @ 30 & 15 min

Yeast:
Saflager 34/70

Protein rest ~122 for 20 min. Pull a decoction (amount?) and boil for 15 min. Add back to main mash and equalize to 150 for 45 min. Vorlauf until clearing then add 1st wort to boil. Sparge and let rest for 10 min, add 2nd wort to boil. Add water to full boil volume, whisk in DME and boil for 60 min, following above hops schedule. Chill wort to low to mid 50s and pitch rehydrated yeast (half a packet for a 1 gallon batch)? Hold in high 50s to low 60s until heavy fermentation completes, then allow to rise to high 60s to complete primary (about 2 weeks). Rack to mini keg and lager for 1 month. Force carb for last 1-2 weeks.
 

ebbelwoi

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Supposedly, Diamond is the dry equivalent of W2308 (the Doemens 308 strain). There's a post way back in this thread from someone who had success fermenting warm with Diamond. I recently did a warm pressure ferment of with Diamond at around 75. It was a side-by-side comparison with w34/70, and the Diamond seemed noticeably cleaner.
 

CaddyWampus

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I am currently brewing up my Oktoberfest for the fall. I plan to really warm ferment this thing. Around 70f ambient, but under pressure. After some reading, it appears that pressure fermenting is perfect for lagers as it suppresses any esters or phenols. I will definitely keep everyone updated as to how this experiment goes.
 

CaddyWampus

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Current update of the warm Oktoberfest. It is almost to 10 psi. I’ve not been able to find a “guide” for pressure fermentation so I might let it stay around there. According to the stick on thermometer, I am somewhere between 75f and 68f lol. Ambient is 70f but it’s sitting on my dining room table covered in a sweatshirt.

1016B54A-CF26-4BF1-AA20-C33EB8D7DBEB.jpeg
A7B3BCF7-5515-4472-A1E6-976EB6281069.jpeg
 

seatazzz

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Supposedly, Diamond is the dry equivalent of W2308 (the Doemens 308 strain). There's a post way back in this thread from someone who had success fermenting warm with Diamond. I recently did a warm pressure ferment of with Diamond at around 75. It was a side-by-side comparison with w34/70, and the Diamond seemed noticeably cleaner.
I've used the Diamond in my last two WF lagers, and I'm very happy with it. Nice clean fermentation, great flavor, and it lends well to reusing the slurry so far. I tried it cold as well and it did fine, although I like the flavor of WF lagers better, dunno why.
 
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