Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[J-T]

Just to report.. first warm fermented lager so far not a huge success. Simple recipe fermented at about 16c ambient using 34/70. Had a couple weeks cold conditioning now and still tastes like sulphur bum...
Was hoping for a quick turnaround beer for a friend's wedding last week but had to take a different beer.

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just to report.. first warm fermented lager so far not a huge success. Simple recipe fermented at about 16c ambient using 34/70. Had a couple weeks cold conditioning now and still tastes like sulphur bum...
Was hoping for a quick turnaround beer for a friend's wedding last week but had to take a different beer.

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

Have you guys looked at rehydration or cell count specifically on dry yeast? In this example two packets are needed.

This is the paid Mr Malty app.

The link is for a pc however on mobile you need the app.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mr Malty's calculator is generally regarded as rather pessimistic, so worth looking at others.

 

[divrack]

Sulfur almost always ages out and IME is usually a yeast stress issue. Didn't you say this pack was dated? 34/70 has higher sulfur production to start, adding the variable of being old likely just compounded the sulfur problem.

It wasn't old as far as I know. Recently bought from a shop. I used 2 packs, not rehydrated but they don't suggest you do.

Not saying it won't get better, but just adding a data point to say the grain to glass 2 week schedule I've read reported here didn't happen in this case. Happy to let it chill a while and will let y'all know how it goes. The other half of the wort I did with a pack of notty and lots of hops is already long gone and was a smash at the wedding..

 

[Schlenkerla]

Mr Malty's calculator is generally regarded as rather pessimistic, so worth looking at others.

What do you suggest using?

If it's believed to be a strained ferment or dated dry yeast it should be a pitching consideration.

 

[InspectorJon]

California Bliss -
I started this last weekend, a small batch recipe for anyone that wants to try that:
44 oz pale 2 row
7 oz crystal 40
3 oz crystal 60
2.8 gallons of water BIAB mash at 155F for 1 hour
1.036 preboil gravity

Northern Brewer hops 8.3%
8g for 60 min
7g for 10 min
6g for 5 min

I boiled a bit harder than I thought I guess and had to add 1/2 inch of water to the brew kettle to get it to finish at 1.050 post boil.
1.75 gallons into fermenter
Cool to 70 degrees pitch 1 pack of re-hydrated MJ54
Fermenter is sitting in a water bath. Temps ranged from 66F at the start on up to 70F
I'll bottle next weekend then throw a doppelbock on the yeast.

 

[ba-brewer]

What do you suggest using?

If it's believed to be a strained ferment or dated dry yeast it should be a pitching consideration.

As this approach is doing lagers at ale temps I think you should be able to use the hybrid yeast setting, but using the lager amounts should not hurt things.

I use brewunited for starters but I still use mr malty for determining the amount of slurry from previous pitches and dry yeast. The amount of older yeast slurry does seem like a lot sometimes, but it is also surprising how little slurry is needed if the yeast is fresh.

Chris white makes some comments in this video about how Jamil likes to use more yeast than needed but does not say it is a bad thing. He also says you should have 50% of the original yeast at end of the use by date which is more than the Mr malty calculator suggests. I believe the comments are toward the end of video in Q&A segment.

I think being conservative on the yeast pitch and possible over pitching for a beers like these is better than under pitching.​

 

[J-T]

It wasn't old as far as I know. Recently bought from a shop. I used 2 packs, not rehydrated but they don't suggest you do.

Not saying it won't get better, but just adding a data point to say the grain to glass 2 week schedule I've read reported here didn't happen in this case. Happy to let it chill a while and will let y'all know how it goes. The other half of the wort I did with a pack of notty and lots of hops is already long gone and was a smash at the wedding..

Roger that, I must have mixed up the post. Regardless, my experience with 34/70, whether dry or liquid is that is kicks up some sulfur. I am fermenting a pils and helles with WY2124 (also weihenstephan 34/70) right now and can smell the sulfur when lifting the freezer lid. If you're in a hurry to get of it, contact with copper will do the trick.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have read you can bubble CO2 through the keg to scrub excessive sulfur but have not tried it. Attach the CO2 to bev out post and vent using the CO2 in post or PRV.

 

[Schlenkerla]

As this approach is doing lagers at ale temps I think you should be able to use the hybrid yeast setting, but using the lager amounts should not hurt things.

I use brewunited for starters but I still use mr malty for determining the amount of slurry from previous pitches and dry yeast. The amount of older yeast slurry does seem like a lot sometimes, but it is also surprising how little slurry is needed if the yeast is fresh.

Chris white makes some comments in this video about how Jamil likes to use more yeast than needed but does not say it is a bad thing. He also says you should have 50% of the original yeast at end of the use by date which is more than the Mr malty calculator suggests. I believe the comments are toward the end of video in Q&A segment.

I think being conservative on the yeast pitch and possible over pitching for a beers like these is better than under pitching.​

Thanks. I'd agree over pitching better than under pitching unless you want that resultant flavor aspect in your beer.

This is the result for switching it to hybrid. 1.4, so rounded up, its two packages.

I only use this to tell me when I might want to consider a second yeast package. I only use dry yeast.

 

[Sbe2]

Probably as good a place to ask, but how would you categorize this beer:

7 lbs 2 row
2.5 lbs of white wheat malt

1 oz US Perle (5.2 AA) 60 mon
1 oz Hallerrau Mittlefrueh (2.7 AA) 15 min
1 oz Hallerrau Mittlefrueh (2.7 AA) 5 min

1500mL starter of wlp800

Fermented at ~65f until a keg kicks

*was going to brew a Kölsch but the LHBS didn’t have 029

 

[@RoyalGallon]

Surprised noone has commented on this. Yes if 17C is what Bud uses then yes that's 7+C warmer than the Germans would ferment at, and very much in line with what people are doing here, and conditioning at cellar temp is even warmer relative to usual lagering temperature.

I can see why you chose M84. It will be interesting to see how you get on with it, because I don't think anyone's tried it to date. However, there's a good chance that it's a Saaz-type lager yeast, which are the cleaner, more cold-adapted group, so it may not be as happy as one of the more warm-adapted Frohberg group. As you may have seen, MJ M54 Californian Lager seems to be the current favourite for warm lager.

However, if you're open to using liquid yeast then you might like to try WLP840 American Lager (supposedly from Budweiser) and WLP862 Cry Havoc, a lager yeast promoted by Charlie Papazian (doyen of US homebrewing) as an all-purpose yeast that can be fermented at 13-23C. Originally it was isolated from a Budweiser keg, and ended up in the Coors yeast bank.

It's worth noting that homebrew yeast are sold as single strains, whereas a commercial brewery will often have several strains in their house yeast, so you'll never quite match them unless you harvest directly. In the Gallone sequencing paper there was an intriguing pair of (codenamed) single strains in the saison family that were closely related and both used commercially for making lager - one in the US and one Czech. I wonder which two breweries in those countries might be using highly related yeast that look like they diverged in the mid-20th century?

PS Given the North American bias of HBT, you might want to clarify in your profile that you're not from the Canadian Windsor.

As a scientist I know negative are as important as positive result - in fact probably more so.
So with that in mind MJ Bohemian lager M54 doesn’t like the heat.

I’ve just crash cooled and fined my beer and tasted a sample. Aside from the expected earthy and bitter linger I expect from the yeast in a green beer this is gloopy.

When cold it had a lovely sweet bubble gum aroma - something I actually associate with Bud funnily enough. But as it warmed up to room temp the beer was very solventy, hot alcohol - it’s got hangover written all over it.

I think it’ll be better once it’s carbonated and cleared but it’s far too dirty to call Bud.

I think I’ll try again at some point with a California yeast but I’ll strike M54 from the list.

 

[Miraculix]

As a scientist I know negative are as important as positive result - in fact probably more so.
So with that in mind MJ Bohemian lager M54 doesn’t like the heat.

I’ve just crash cooled and fined my beer and tasted a sample. Aside from the expected earthy and bitter linger I expect from the yeast in a green beer this is gloopy.

When cold it had a lovely sweet bubble gum aroma - something I actually associate with Bud funnily enough. But as it warmed up to room temp the beer was very solventy, hot alcohol - it’s got hangover written all over it.

I think it’ll be better once it’s carbonated and cleared but it’s far too dirty to call Bud.

I think I’ll try again at some point with a California yeast but I’ll strike M54 from the list.

Thanks for sharing, now we know!

I had the cleanest results at uncontrolled room temp with mj California lager, closely followed by wlp 800.

I got the feeling that the mj flocs a little bit better, so for convenience, I would go for the mj yeast.

 

[Genuine]

For my Oktoberfest, I pitched one packet of 34/70, couldn’t be happier with it.

 

[Miraculix]

I hate the low floc aspect of 3470. I wonder if it would be possible to throw in half a pack of safale04 at the end of fermentation to give the flocculation a boost without the 04 ester production, as not much fermentables would be left at the point when it is introduced.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Hydrometer is showing 4.5% after 7 days of warm fermenting Pilsner at 68-70F. Is that normal, or do I need to ferment it for few more days? I expected it to be around 5.5%-6%. Airlock was pretty calm, maybe bubbling once every 50 seconds. Tasted flat obviously as it isn’t carbonated yet, but I expected some more hoppy taste.

I have taken fermenting bucket out of cool water, so it is at room temperature now if about 76F.

Maybe I am panicking for no reason!!!! I don’t want my first brew to be spoilt or worse taste like Coors Light!!!!

Hi guys, any comments on my questions above? Maybe cause of moving bucket out of tub onto sink counter yesterday night, I see bubbles now every 40 seconds. Bucket temperature seems to be at 80F. Should I measure ABV again tonight (24 hrs) and then bottle it tomorrow?

 

[ba-brewer]

Hi guys, any comments on my questions above? Maybe cause of moving bucket out of tub onto sink counter yesterday night, I see bubbles now every 40 seconds. Bucket temperature seems to be at 80F. Should I measure ABV again tonight (24 hrs) and then bottle it tomorrow?

Bucket are prone to loosing their seal so not the best to look at bubbles to determine when the beer is done. Measure gravity in a day or two and see if it the same. Moving a fermentor to a warm environment will get CO2 to leave solution.

What was your starting gravity and what was your mash temp?

In general you should be at terminal gravity in 7days if your beer started without much lag.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Bucket are prone to loosing their seal so not the best to look at bubbles to determine when the beer is done. Measure gravity in a day or two and see if it the same. Moving a fermentor to a warm environment will get CO2 to leave solution.

What was your starting gravity and what was your mash temp?

In general you should be at terminal gravity in 7days if your beer started without much lag.

Thanks for replying. Starting gravity was 1.055 and it was 1.020 yesterday night. Mash temp if I am not mistaken was 154F.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks for replying. Starting gravity was 1.055 and it was 1.020 yesterday night. Mash temp if I am not mistaken was 154F.

Check it again tomorrow night or the next, you were only at like 63% attenuation most lagers yeast should get you close 75%.

At 154 you might finish a bit high for a pilsner, if you want crispness mash down closer to 148 or 150 next time.

​

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Check it again tomorrow night or the next, you were only at like 63% attenuation most lagers yeast should get you close 75%.

At 154 you might finish a bit high for a pilsner, if you want crispness mash down closer to 148 or 150 next time.

​

I couldn’t wait and checked right now and hydrometer shows 1.014......that is about 5.3%!!!! I am hoping by tomorrow afternoon, I should be able to prime and bottle!!!

 

[ba-brewer]

@Tulsahomebrewer which yeast did you use?

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

@Tulsahomebrewer which yeast did you use?

Wyeast 2001.......my instructions say this yeast works best between 45-50F. But it seems to have worked well at 67-70F.

BA.....is that Broken Arrow? If yes, I got my ingredients from High Gravity. Kit is called “Bohemian Rhapsody”.

 

[ba-brewer]

Slightly west of Broken Arrow, San Francisco Bay Area.

Most yeast will work/ferment up into the 60s and above but not all will produce a clean result. I searched this thread and you are the only one to post using Wy2001. It says it does produce some esters in it's ideal range so it will be interested to hear how it does at higher temps.

 

[koopatrain]

Wyeast 2001.......my instructions say this yeast works best between 45-50F. But it seems to have worked well at 67-70F.

BA.....is that Broken Arrow? If yes, I got my ingredients from High Gravity. Kit is called “Bohemian Rhapsody”.

Congrats on your first brew (if I read your earlier post right), one word of caution based on your implied bottling schedule. I’d make sure that the FG is holding steady and not continuing to drop (might mean an extra couple days of checking) before transferring to bottles and carbonating just to avoid any bottle bombs. Sounds like your fermentation went quick!

 

[Miraculix]

I couldn’t wait and checked right now and hydrometer shows 1.014......that is about 5.3%!!!! I am hoping by tomorrow afternoon, I should be able to prime and bottle!!!

Mate, you have the first brewer impatience. After pitching the yeast, close the lid and leave it for at least twelve days. Then start thinking of doing something. There would be also nothing wrong with just leaving it for two to three weeks and then bottle. Beer does not get better with action and speed but might get worse. Best results come with patience, let this being said to you by a guy who cannot keep the lid closed for two days in a row because he always wants to know what's happening in the bucket

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

Day 9 - Bottling day (I just could not wait!!!)

I bottled mostly in brown flip tops, but also used 3 clear bottles just to keep an eye on what happens in there. These babies are now hanging out in a dark closet with a beach towel covering them from light.

 

[Miraculix]

Day 9 - Bottling day (I just could not wait!!!)

I bottled mostly in brown flip tops, but also used 3 clear bottles just to keep an eye on what happens in there. These babies are now hanging out in a dark closet with a beach towel covering them from light.

View attachment 588513View attachment 588514

You got way too much yeast in the bottles because you wouldn't wait. Next time, wait till the yeast has settled or cold crash, that helps the taste immensely.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

You got way too much yeast in the bottles because you wouldn't wait. Next time, wait till the yeast has settled or cold crash, that helps the taste immensely.

Other than taste, would this affect carbonation as in excessive pressure in bottles leading to bursts? I am hoping that at end of three weeks it will clear up. Would that leave lot of crud at the bottom of bottles?

I will definitely wait longer next time. But I saw some posts in this thread saying they bottled at 7 days, did I understand incorrectly?

 

[Bilsch]

Day 9 - Bottling day (I just could not wait!!!)
I bottled mostly in brown flip tops, but also used 3 clear bottles just to keep an eye on what happens in there. These babies are now hanging out in a dark closet with a beach towel covering them from light.

No worries about the sediment, it will settle and you can pour off clear beer. Having it in there will effect your storage stability but I suspect these will get drunk long before that is an issue. As for pressure, If you did bottle with too much fermentables at least with swing tops you can vent some CO2. Interesting color by the way, I'm curious about your wort production. Was this a malt extract beer by chance?

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

If you did bottle with too much fermentables at least with swing tops you can vent some CO2. Interesting color by the way, I'm curious about your wort production. Was this a malt extract beer by chance?

Yep, malt extract (first kit I bought). Do you mean color is interesting in a good way or looks super strange?
I have been reading a lot about bottle bombs after previous user posted. I might check 1-2 bottles at the end of week-1. I have seventeen 16oz bottles, and three 32oz bottles....all flip tops.

 

[Bilsch]

I will definitely wait longer next time. But I saw some posts in this thread saying they bottled at 7 days, did I understand incorrectly?

You can't go by time as every beer is different and there are a lot of variables that determine when the beer is done. I've had some ready for bottling in as little as 3 days and as long as 2 weeks. The only way to know for sure is to take gravity measurements.

 

[Bilsch]

Yep, malt extract (first kit I bought). Do you mean color is interesting in a good way or looks super strange?
I have been reading a lot about bottle bombs after previous user posted. I might check 1-2 bottles at the end of week-1. I have seventeen 16oz bottles, and three 32oz bottles....all flip tops.

No not strange at all but just has the characteristic color of extract which is generally caused by the process of making it. As for bottle bombs, the swing top bottles are more durable then regular beer bottles and should take a lot more pressure. Your plan of checking in a week is a good one and if too carbonated you can crack the other bottles a couple times and vent off some CO2.

 

[Miraculix]

Other than taste, would this affect carbonation as in excessive pressure in bottles leading to bursts? I am hoping that at end of three weeks it will clear up. Would that leave lot of crud at the bottom of bottles?

I will definitely wait longer next time. But I saw some posts in this thread saying they bottled at 7 days, did I understand incorrectly?

Sorry for my rather short post which wasn't that much informative.

I generally have the following issues when too much yeast is in the bottle:

1. If the yeast does not stick well to the bottom (which lager yeast usually does not), the yeast can get agitated when opening the bottle. Then the yeast is thrown back into suspension, acting as nucleotides at which co2 can get out of solution quickly, which leads to gushers and yeast and maybe flat beer in the glass.
Keeping this in mind, gushers do not necessarily mean overcarbonation, if the yeast is swirling around in the bottle.

2. Taste, yeasty beer tastes.... Yeasty. What suits hefeweizen and some other styles does not necessarily fit lagers, most prefer those clear.

3. Look.... But honestly, I don't care about the look. If it tastes fine it could be looking like unicorn juice.


And generally speaking, trying to rush a beer is something you can do when you really know what you are doing. At the beginning, give it at least two weeks in the fermenter.

 

[Genuine]

Here's my Oktoberfest! Pretty happy with it! All I did for Water adjustments were 2ml of Lactic Acid and 50ppm of CalCl.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As a scientist I know negative are as important as positive result - in fact probably more so.
So with that in mind MJ Bohemian lager M54 doesn’t like the heat....When cold it had a lovely sweet bubble gum aroma - something I actually associate with Bud funnily enough. But as it warmed up to room temp the beer was very solventy, hot alcohol

As you say, negative results are important, especially at this stage when we're trying to map out the terrain. Shame you had to toss it, but it does rather support the theory that M54 is a Saaz type of lager yeast, which are the low-temperature ones.

I hate the low floc aspect of 3470. I wonder if it would be possible to throw in half a pack of safale04 at the end of fermentation to give the flocculation a boost without the 04 ester production, as not much fermentables would be left at the point when it is introduced.

Or use a bottling yeast like F-2/CBC-1, or something like Notty.

Day 9 - Bottling day (I just could not wait!!!)
View attachment 588513

Just as a tip - if you're bottling in the kitchen, don't bottle on the floor. Domestic harmony is better preserved if you put the bottles on the door of the dishwasher, that way all the spills end up in the dishwasher rather than over the floor. Also I'd shorten that tube a bit, those loose loops have a knack of waving around and knocking bottles over etc when you least want it.

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

4 days into bottle conditioning...it is clearing up nicely. I can see tiny bubbles rising from the bottom, mostly suspended.

View attachment 589014

 

[Tulsahomebrewer]

4 days into bottle conditioning...it is clearing up nicely. I can see tiny bubbles rising from the bottom, mostly suspended.

View attachment 589014

Not sure what happened to my post, I cannot see pic anymore. Let’s see if this works

 

[InspectorJon]

California Bliss -
I started this last weekend, a small batch recipe for anyone that wants to try that:
44 oz pale 2 row
7 oz crystal 40
3 oz crystal 60
2.8 gallons of water BIAB mash at 155F for 1 hour
1.036 preboil gravity

Northern Brewer hops 8.3%
8g for 60 min
7g for 10 min
6g for 5 min

I boiled a bit harder than I thought I guess and had to add 1/2 inch of water to the brew kettle to get it to finish at 1.050 post boil.
1.75 gallons into fermenter
Cool to 70 degrees pitch 1 pack of re-hydrated MJ M54
Fermenter is sitting in a water bath. Temps ranged from 66F at the start on up to 70F
I'll bottle next weekend then throw a doppelbock on the yeast.

Bottled the California Bliss yesterday. It finished at 1.013 using the MJ M54. That is 73% AA. It tasted clean and was very clear. Crashed it to 33 degrees then gelatin fining for two days before bottling. This beer was really just a big starter for the doppelbock I brewed today. Pitched the 20 oz of thick slurry into a three gallon batch of doppelbock. We will see how that goes.

Mashing the Doppelbock this morning.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Going to keg my Oktoberfest tonight and lager & carb up at 35 degrees for a few weeks.

 

[seatazzz]

Waiting for #6 to get carbed up. Brought some for my brewpub boss to try today, he said "underattenuated" because it's kinda sweet, but it dropped from 1.065 to 1.012 so I don't think it's underattenuated. Might have had a bit of a heavy hand with the Crystal hops I used. Tastes great to me, hope to have it fully carbed by tomorrow to drink while I watch my Seahawks kick the poopy out of the Cowgirls.