Vitamin C - The Game Changer?

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When I was using a cooler MT I would empty the MT into the BK and pour the sparge water onto the grain, give it a quick stir and drain that into the BK. I always got really good extraction.

This is how I do it as well. Super easy. efficiency in the high 80's without much work.

Eventually I want to cycle back and try bottling an NEIPA testing the impact on Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium Metabisulfite. But I probably need a few iterations of brewing a NEIPA to get it where I want first.

I'd guess this is where it would be more noticeable. You could maybe put a little from the keg in bottles (in case "bottling" meant the more classic method)? Pinch of AA in one, none in the other? Could also do it anytime, honestly, no need for a good recipe - just something hoppy.

Just thinking out loud, may have already though of all of it.
 

pocketmon

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I paid $3 for 100g while 500g is $7.

Just bottled a (small) batch of Marzen, dosed by my auto doser.
doser.jpg


50%Brix sugar solution is on the left while AA solution is on the right. If AA is mandatory thereafter, I will just mix AA in the sugar solution.
I made AA solution with 1.5g AA in 50g water. 1cc for 330ml. Some are dosed without AA solution. I messed up, so only 3 pairs are certain.
Question: when will the difference between w/o AA show up?
 
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Miraculix

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This is how I do it as well. Super easy. efficiency in the high 80's without much work.



I'd guess this is where it would be more noticeable. You could maybe put a little from the keg in bottles (in case "bottling" meant the more classic method)? Pinch of AA in one, none in the other? Could also do it anytime, honestly, no need for a good recipe - just something hoppy.

Just thinking out loud, may have already though of all of it.
The most interesting way would be to put it into the mash and not additionally into the bottle, just to see if there's sufficient aa left to also do it's thing in the bottle.

Actually, even more interesting would be if some of the bottles actually would have the additional dose at bottling stage, and some not, just to be able to see if there's a difference.

I can't stand neipas so I certainly won't do that myself I'm afraid :D
 

Erik the Anglophile

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We're going shopping in Sweden soon to stock up on one or two things. It's been 2 years since our last trip. It's going to be exciting just to get out of Norway for a day.
So let me get this straight, in Norway you can't buy Ascorbic acid in the supermarket? Here I can go to COOP or ICA and get both AA and Citric Acid and Salpeter if I need it.
 
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CascadesBrewer

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I brewed an NEIPA today. I tossed in 1.5 g of Ascorbic Acid into the mash, along with half a Campden tablet (this was for a 2.6 gallon batch with around 4.25 gallons of mash water).

In the past I have used Campden due to my tap water being treated with chloramine. For many years I used 1 tablet for a 5 gallon batch (around 8 gallons of water). At one point I switch to 1/2 tablet for 5 gallon batches and 1/4 tablet for 2.5 gallon batches, but lately I have been using 1 for a 5 gallon batch and 1/2 for a 2.5 gallon batch with hopes that a little more helps with oxidation.

Based on the video by @Bassman2003, I was looking at the hot break to look for signs of hot side oxidation. My limited understanding is that oxidation will result in darkening that will show in the hot break foam. I have some video of both this batch and the prior batch (which did not use any ascorbic acid), and the hot break looks very similar. Both grain bills were Rahr 2-Row, with Malted Wheat and Flaked Oats. The prior batch had 1/4 lb Honey Malt where this one had 1/2 lb Munich 6L.

I don't expect I will have any data to report from this batch. I did not notice any oxidation in the prior batch, but I take steps to avoid cold side oxidation and the batch only lasted 16 days in the keg! If tan colors in the hot break foam is a sign of hot side oxidation, then my hunch is that ignoring all LODO practices and just throwing in some ascorbic acid into the mash does not stop it. I brew with BIAB and have not adopted any specific hot side LODO practices.


IMG_3774.JPG
 

WalletHocker

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Based on the video by @Bassman2003, I was looking at the hot break to look for signs of hot side oxidation. My limited understanding is that oxidation will result in darkening that will show in the hot break foam. I have some video of both this batch and the prior batch (which did not use any ascorbic acid), and the hot break looks very similar. Both grain bills were Rahr 2-Row, with Malted Wheat and Flaked Oats. The prior batch had 1/4 lb Honey Malt where this one had 1/2 lb Munich 6L.

Hot break color has *nothing* to do with hot side oxidation. It is a product of the size of the proteins ( and lipids/fatty acids, etc..) dissolved in the wort and how much of the same made it to the boil kettle. How many of those proteins stayed in the mash tun? It is an indicator of how good your vorlauf and lauter were. On the same level, grain terroir, grain crush, kilning level and mash pH contribute as 3rd parties. A dark kilned grain will produce a darker hot break simply because the proteins have been roasted.
 

CascadesBrewer

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Hot break color has *nothing* to do with hot side oxidation. It is a product of the size of the proteins ( and lipids/fatty acids, etc..) dissolved in the wort and how much of the same made it to the boil kettle. How many of those proteins stayed in the mash tun? It is an indicator of how good your vorlauf and lauter were. On the same level, grain terroir, grain crush, kilning level and mash pH contribute as 3rd parties. A dark kilned grain will produce a darker hot break simply because the proteins have been roasted.

I don't want to venture too much into LODO concepts because 1) I know very little about them and 2) they can get controversial quick. The video that I mention has a very clear example of a LODO batch where the hot break for the LODO batch is a very white. It is a stark visual difference from the other batches. His was a 100% Great Western 2-Row grain bill. Mine was around 70% Rahr 2-Row, 12% Flaked Oats, 12% White Wheat Malt, and 7% Light Munich. I do BIAB so no vorlauf or lauter, and my small bag is fairly coarse.

As far as the topic of this thread goes (mostly on adding Ascorbic Acid to the mash to help with oxidation or staling after packaging), I am not sure if the same concepts even apply. It was something I was looking out for on my brew day.

My personal interest in this topic is more on being able to avoid oxidation while bottling some small batches. I would like to try more small batches to try out hops, hop combos, dry hopping techniques, NEIPA recipes, etc. I just find it hard to bottle hoppy beers and get the same quality as my kegged batches. At some point I want to do some trials to see if ascorbic acid can help with that. It is a bonus if it extends the life of my kegged IPAs, NEIPAs or other styles.
 
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Miraculix

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I brewed a very pale cream ale with nottingham on the cold end of its temperature range, 25% corn, 5% spelt, rest pilsner malt. About 4.3% abv and roughly 20-25 Ibus. I added the usual amount of vitamin c (3.5g/20liter in the fermenter) pre-mash to the water and I have superb malt character and hops where they should be. Had zero almond, but I wonder if I can detect a slight sour twang from the vitamin c in the final product. This beer is so light with very little residual sweetness, that it does not hide anything (I brewed it because of this), and it tastes a tiny bit sour. At least some sips do, some don't :D, the level of sourness is absolutely in the range of possible confirmation bias and imagination, so don't get me wrong it is not a strong flavour. At the end, this actually fits this particular beer very well, it makes it even a bit more refreshing, but it is not something I want everywhere (I doubt that it would be detectable in a beer above an Og of 1.05 or with crystal involved). So I will do some taste testing this weekend.

First of all, I will dilute the vitamin c in water the same ratio I had in the wort. I will check against plain water.

Next one will be, the same water being boiled for 45 minutes (my usual boil time), to see if flavour changes over time. I know, not wort conditions, but if it degrades with time and temperature and taste changes, I should still be able to taste something.
 
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Johst12

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I use AA on every beer I dryhop, since... forever.
It works for colour stability for a long time, for taste it just gives you some more month before the beer loses it's freshnes, thats my experience.

My dosage ist 30 mg/l, so roughly 0,6 g/20l.
 

McMullan

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I've been getting strange, inconsistent flavours in recent lagers when using dry yeast. Although it seems to be fading, I don't get this when using wet yeast. I wouldn't call it 'almond' (my favourite tart is a Bakewell tart packed with crushed almonds, laced with almond essence then topped with some flaked almonds), but I can imagine how some might detect it as almond like. For me it's more like 'cotton' with a fleeting hint of something almond like. The only difference (from when I use wet yeast) is I didn't oxygenate the worts prior to pitching dry lager yeast. I generally brew half batches for lagers and ferment them in kegs under low spunding pressure then high towards the end of fermentation to finish conditioning. So not much chance of it being O2 on the cold side. Since I don't experience the same when using wet lager yeast, does this mean I can rule out something on the hot side? Or do wet yeast better metabolise something that forms on the hot side or something already in the malted barley? It's complicated. An interesting experiment, for me, is to use AA in the mash of my lager recipe then ferment with dry yeast. Then I think I'll be done using dry brewer's yeast for another 10 years. One thing I have been able to confirm already is why I don't use dry brewer's yeast. It is a little bit rubbish compared with fresh wet yeast.
 
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Miraculix

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check how the pH changes as well. although it will be a drastic pH change I expect in comparison to grains being present as they will buffer a lot.
I would like to, but I don't have a pH meter I'm afraid.

I use AA on every beer I dryhop, since... forever.
It works for colour stability for a long time, for taste it just gives you some more month before the beer loses it's freshnes, thats my experience.

My dosage ist 30 mg/l, so roughly 0,6 g/20l.
That is less than a tenth of what I'm using pre mash, I will drastically lower the amount in my next beer, to see if this still is sufficient for my almond problem. I will cut the amount I usually use in half.
 
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Miraculix

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I've been getting strange, inconsistent flavours in recent lagers when using dry yeast. Although it seems to be fading, I don't get this when using wet yeast. I wouldn't call it 'almond' (my favourite tart is a Bakewell tart packed with crushed almonds, laced with almond essence then topped with some flaked almonds), but I can imagine how some might detect it as almond like. For me it's more like 'cotton' with a fleeting hint of something almond like. The only difference (from when I use wet yeast) is I didn't oxygenate the worts prior to pitching dry lager yeast. I generally brew half batches for lagers and ferment them in kegs under low spunding pressure then high towards the end of fermentation to finish conditioning. So not much chance of it being O2 on the cold side. Since I don't experience the same when using wet lager yeast, does this mean I can rule out something on the hot side? Or do wet yeast better metabolise something that forms on the hot side or something already in the malted barley? It's complicated. An interesting experiment, for me, is to use AA in the mash of my lager recipe then ferment with dry yeast. Then I think I'll be done using dry brewer's yeast for another 10 years. One thing I have been able to confirm already is why I don't use dry brewer's yeast. It is a little bit rubbish compared with fresh wet yeast.
"Luckily" I've had this flavour with dry and with liquid yeast, so I don't have to wonder whether is caused by the type of yeast or something else, in my case.

That is certainly interesting but I think it also depends a bit on the type of yeast. Almost all dry yeasts behave better when repitched slurry is used, but some of them still behave good enough when used directly.
 

McMullan

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"Luckily" I've had this flavour with dry and with liquid yeast, so I don't have to wonder whether is caused by the type of yeast or something else, in my case.

That is certainly interesting but I think it also depends a bit on the type of yeast. Almost all dry yeasts behave better when repitched slurry is used, but some of them still behave good enough when used directly.
I haven't tried repitching dry yeast. I should probably try it. My lager comparisons so far have been between liquid and dry yeast offerings.
 
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Miraculix

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I haven't tried repitching dry yeast. I should probably try it. My lager comparisons so far have been between liquid and dry yeast offerings.
There's quite some difference. Sometimes it's only about better flocculation, sometimes about the complete flavour profile.
 

Beermeister32

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Theres a bunch of info on the internet about ascorbic acid - looks like it is broken down at typical low mash temperatures into other components by around 140F / 60C, enzymes playing a role. Heres some info using broccoli…. How about some green beer anyone? !!!

 
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Miraculix

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Theres a bunch of info on the internet about ascorbic acid - looks like it is broken down at typical low mash trmperatures into other components by around 140F / 60C, enzymes playing a role. Heres some info using brocoli…. How about some green beer anyone? !!!

Yes we covered that a bit and came to the conclusion that we cannot really find a conclusion on wether or not this really happens or if this is mainly information from the food supplement sector from people who want to sell supplements. Also the question is about different conditions within the mash and within the brocoli, then time frame plays a role... How much of it degrades per hour in the mash? It is just not that simple, so we just try to keep an eye on the practical level while not ignoring the information we can validate.
 

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I was going to suggest some testing but you've already got it lined up. Will be interested in the water test results.

Seems like (careful word choice) AA would be more helpful in a hoppier beer... and if it does have a detectable flavor on its own, perhaps in said hoppier beer it'd be overwhelmed anyhow? This might be a level thing as well, if it is detectable, perhaps half as much would not be. But then it's full circle to whether it is effective or not.
 
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Miraculix

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I was going to suggest some testing but you've already got it lined up. Will be interested in the water test results.

Seems like (careful word choice) AA would be more helpful in a hoppier beer... and if it does have a detectable flavor on its own, perhaps in said hoppier beer it'd be overwhelmed anyhow? This might be a level thing as well, if it is detectable, perhaps half as much would not be. But then it's full circle to whether it is effective or not.
Luckily, I got my almond problem here, wich clearly shows up if there is not sufficient AA added for hot side oxidation protection. Doesn't tell me anything about how much ends up in the bottle and protects the beer potentially there, but at least we see if it is enough to do something in the mash and boil.
 

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I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?
 

hopjuice_71

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I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

I would have expected the YOS sample to have a slightly lower pH. The dissolution of CO2 produced by the yeast to create carbonic acid should have lowered the pH slightly. Though this probably would all have been mostly driven off heating to mash temp .. .. well, this was a useless train of thought... Might have been a measurement anomaly or maybe a slight issue with the lactic acid addition.
 
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Miraculix

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I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?
What this does show is that with the given amount of AA, no significant pH change was detectable. That is good news.
 

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Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

A little bit of a shot in the dark, but (in beer) yeast autolysis causes a pH rise.
 

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A bit more detail maybe on my YOS water preparation maybe helps (or not). I added all my brewing salts, k-meta tablet, lactic acid, and dextrose to the water while heating it up to 90F. I then added the dry yeast and then let it sit overnight (from about 1:30 AM until 7:30 AM) in my 65-degree basement without heat applied or water circulating.
 
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Miraculix

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Regarding me thinking that I might taste some of the vitamin c in the final product, nope! I just had a Flensburger Pilsener and this one tastes ten times stronger the way I thought I tasted in my beer with the 3.5g vitamin c pre-mash. It is just the normal acidity of a beer I guess.
 

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So I acquired some ascorbic acid and my plan is to use it when I dry hop to provide a bit of protection. For those of you who do this, do you dissolve the powder first or just go for it? What sort of dose do you think is appropriate?
 
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So I acquired some ascorbic acid and my plan is to use it when I dry hop to provide a bit of protection. For those of you who do this, do you dissolve the powder first or just go for it? What sort of dose do you think is appropriate?
I put it in a purged keg, made sure I purged it again with CO2 after the open-and-dump, and then did a closed-transfer.
 
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