Vitamin C - The Game Changer?

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DuncB

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A mite is a unit of currency

" Widow's Mites, also known as Leptons or Pruta, were the smallest known denomination in ancient Jewish currency. These were regular coins from the Maccabees to the time of Herod, but they became famous worldwide with their mention in the New Testament. "
 

balrog

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A mite is a unit of currency

" Widow's Mites, also known as Leptons or Pruta, were the smallest known denomination in ancient Jewish currency. These were regular coins from the Maccabees to the time of Herod, but they became famous worldwide with their mention in the New Testament. "

Also:

1644271200402.png


Dunno why I needed to do that. My wife keeps telling me to stop. But I can't help myself.
 

DuncB

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@balrog
This should clarify for anyone finding the biochemistry in this thread a little too straightforward
Leptons are elementary particles with spin 1/2 (a fermion) that are not affected by strong nuclear force. They are a family of particles that are different from the other known family of fermions, the quarks. Electrons are a well-known example that are found in ordinary matter.
 

CascadesBrewer

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I enjoyed the science heavy discussion, even if I did not understand much of it. Related to that...for those that understand what is really going on...does it make sense that Ascorbic Acid would be more effective in the presence of (or with the addition of) Metabisulfite? The guys from Genus Brewing say that barley has plenty of sulfite (or sulfate? or sulphur?). Would this be true for just mash additions of AA, or also for post fermentation additions?

I just added a 1oz pack of Ascorbic Acid to an order from Ritebrew. I have been playing around with using Potasium Metabisulfite, but no real data points to share. I want to do some trails of both, especially if one or both will help with bottling NEIPA style beers.
 

Sam_92

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I inadvertently put AA to a torture test this weekend. My wife went out to for beers with her sister and me in my infinite wisdom decided I could totally brew, bottle a beer, and care for my three month old all at the same time...

Long story short I plugged my fermenter spigot and my auto-siphon and endee up dumping the beer into a another bucket with a grain bag to catch the hops and then dumping it back into the bucket with the spigot to finish bottling which took about an hour because I had to keep stopping to soothe baby. If this beer is drinkable at all I will be sold on AA. If I dump it all at least the beer I brewed that day went well. I promise I will learn how to dryhop better.
 
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Miraculix

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I inadvertently put AA to a torture test this weekend. My wife went out to for beers with her sister and me in my infinite wisdom decided I could totally brew, bottle a beer, and care for my three month old all at the same time...

Long story short I plugged my fermenter spigot and my auto-siphon and endee up dumping the beer into a another bucket with a grain bag to catch the hops and then dumping it back into the bucket with the spigot to finish bottling which took about an hour because I had to keep stopping to soothe baby. If this beer is drinkable at all I will be sold on AA. If I dump it all at least the beer I brewed that day went well. I promise I will learn how to dryhop better.
:D

Brilliant!

Don't put yourself down, you did it all on purpose for science sake obviously!

I'm really looking forward to hearing what's going on with that batch in a month or so. Did you add the AA pre mash? How much did you add?
 
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Sam_92

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I didn't add any pre-mash because I only saw this post after it was fermenting. I added a pinch with the dryhops and another pinch with the priming sugar. I don't have a super precise scale or tiny measuring devices but I probably added .25 teaspoons each time.
 
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Miraculix

Miraculix

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I didn't add any pre-mash because I only saw this post after it was fermenting. I added a pinch with the dryhops and another pinch with the priming sugar. I don't have a super precise scale or tiny measuring devices but I probably added .25 teaspoons each time.
Please do yourself a favour and buy a cheap precision scale. It's like ten bucks on Amazon. Measuring weight by volume is really not a good idea.

The amount sounds roughly like what I would have added pre-mash, so you should be in the right ball park.
 

cmac62

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I have used measuring spoons in the past, but a .01 gram scale helped me know what .6 of a gram looks like in a tsp measure. :mug:
 
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Miraculix

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I have used measuring spoons in the past, but a .01 gram scale helped me know what .6 of a gram looks like in a tsp measure. :mug:
That implies that the size of the single grains are 100% uniform each time. Which they are not. So what looks like 0.6g with one batch might weigh a different number with the next scoop.
 
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VikeMan

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That implies that the size of the single grains are 100% uniform each time. Which they are not. So what looks like 0.6g with one batch might way a different number with the next scoop.

Not to mention that this method requires an eagle's eye and an elephant's memory. I don't have those anymore. I weigh everything.
 
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This thread has taken some interesting birdwalks, that's for sure. So I went with a consistent measurement for my first attempt at using AA as an anti-oxidant in a hoppy IPA-1 tsp. in the keg at transfer. Since I acidify with phosphoric, the AA was only used when the beer was transferred from the fermenter to the keg, nothing else in the recipe changed. The keg has been sitting and will continue to sit under 11PSI CO2 in 40F until Super Bowl Sunday, when it will have been lagering for two weeks. I just made this same beer a couple months ago; it's popularity required me to brew for the family party, and so the flavor of it without AA will be prominent on everyone's palate. If it's different this time with AA, I am going to hear about it from about a dozen drinkers.

It's not exactly scientific, waiting for someone to say either, "Glad you made this, it's just like I remember," or "This is better/worse than last time, what'd you change," but I'll take it.
 

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Stating the obvious, the benefit of AA may depend on other brew and packaging methods. I'd suspect anyone using closed transfers, purging kegs, etc. would see less difference if any at all vs. someone that just drains a fermenter into a keg w/ the lid off.

I think there are some good ideas and tests of sorts afoot and that's great. But it might take some unspectacular practices to detect a benefit. Or, at least, a decent amount of time (let an IPA sit for a couple months, not a couple weeks.

Not directing it at anyone in particular, just something to keep in mind as experiments start to form.
 

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I just wanted to report back on the botched IPA I bottled last Sunday. I was fairly excited because it was an experiment for the greater good using AA and then I f***** it up soooo bad. I'm drinking the last bottle of this batch right now, six days after I bottled it and dumped it back and forth between buckets twice. The hop aroma did fade away pretty quickly but the hop flavor is still pretty damn strong. Every bottle had from 1/2 to 1 inch of yeast and trub at the bottom and many were gushers that could not be drank. The ones that survived though are surprisingly delicious and well carbonated especially considering my normal beers take about three weeks to condition in my basement, I'm guessing the extra oxygen sped along carbonation or something.

I know this doesn't really add anything to this thread but I wanted to finish out my story and say that I will be trying again, but with a system that contains my dry hops and allows me to bottle normally.
 
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Miraculix

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I just wanted to report back on the botched IPA I bottled last Sunday. I was fairly excited because it was an experiment for the greater good using AA and then I f***** it up soooo bad. I'm drinking the last bottle of this batch right now, six days after I bottled it and dumped it back and forth between buckets twice. The hop aroma did fade away pretty quickly but the hop flavor is still pretty damn strong. Every bottle had from 1/2 to 1 inch of yeast and trub at the bottom and many were gushers that could not be drank. The ones that survived though are surprisingly delicious and well carbonated especially considering my normal beers take about three weeks to condition in my basement, I'm guessing the extra oxygen sped along carbonation or something.

I know this doesn't really add anything to this thread but I wanted to finish out my story and say that I will be trying again, but with a system that contains my dry hops and allows me to bottle normally.
Thanks!

That's why I use a sanitised hop bag for dry hopping. I boil it shortly before throwing it into the beer, fill in the hops when it's still hot and into the beer it goes.
 
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This thread has taken some interesting birdwalks, that's for sure. So I went with a consistent measurement for my first attempt at using AA as an anti-oxidant in a hoppy IPA-1 tsp. in the keg at transfer. Since I acidify with phosphoric, the AA was only used when the beer was transferred from the fermenter to the keg, nothing else in the recipe changed. The keg has been sitting and will continue to sit under 11PSI CO2 in 40F until Super Bowl Sunday, when it will have been lagering for two weeks. I just made this same beer a couple months ago; it's popularity required me to brew for the family party, and so the flavor of it without AA will be prominent on everyone's palate. If it's different this time with AA, I am going to hear about it from about a dozen drinkers.

It's not exactly scientific, waiting for someone to say either, "Glad you made this, it's just like I remember," or "This is better/worse than last time, what'd you change," but I'll take it.

So, I tapped the keg last night to make sure that there would be good beer for today. It is amazing. Passed off a sixer to the neighbor that has been waiting for this to be brewed again and he is flabbergasted at how good it is. The rest that have tried it so far are amazed at the malt and hop balance. Only thing I did different from last time is 1 tsp of AA in the keg when I moved it from the fermenter.

This may not be the most scientific method, but if I was selling beer, the customer demanding when I am going to brew it again, and being amazeballs when it shows up is all that matters.
 

VikeMan

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Anyone measured the pH difference between a beer with AA added and the same beer with no addition? It occurs to me that a difference in pH might be noticeable and perceived as less "dull." I know a brewer who routinely adds citric acid to their finished IPAs for that reason.
 
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Miraculix

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Anyone measured the pH difference between a beer with AA added and the same beer with no addition? It occurs to me that a difference in pH might be noticeable and perceived as less "dull." I know a brewer who routinely adds citric acid to their finished IPAs for that reason.
Good Point, no, never did it. In case of adding it pre-mash, I think it is neglactable. Yeast tries to get the pH into it's comfort zone, which is usually lower than mash pH. Meaning the yeast just lowers it a little bit less if the AA should have lowered it a bit already.

When adding it pre bottling/kegging, different storry obviously.
 
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Miraculix

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Another datapoint, I had one of the American lagers I described previously. It is basically consisting of corn and pilsner malt. It had the honey-ish pilsner sweetness that I get when having an Augustiner or a Pinkus. The flavour I never managed to replicate myself somehow. Interesting to see. Still no head retention, but that was to be expected given the short time in the bottle. ...unfortunately quite some sulfur flavour as well, but that happened due to severe underpitching, my imperial harvest sludge was half dead, a pack of 3470 came for the rescue, but was a bit late in the game I'm afraid.

So it looks like there was some improvement regarding malt flavour.
 
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VikeMan

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Another datapoint, I had one of the American lagers I described previously. It is basically consisting of corn and pilsner malt. It had the honey-ish pilsner sweetness that I get when having an Augustiner or a Pintus. The flavour I never managed to replicate myself somehow. Interesting to see. Still no head retention, but that was to be expected given the short time in the bottle. ...unfortunately quite some sulfur flavour as well, but that happened due to severe underpitching, my imperial harvest sludge was half dead, a pack of 3470 came for the rescue, but was a bit late in the game I'm afraid.

So it looks like there was some improvement regarding malt flavour.

The following quote, taken from another forum, is from "the" LODO guy. Consider it (or not) as you will.

"Honey is an oxidation flavor. Ever had an import german beer? Is it like that?"

Perhaps the presence of honey sweeteness shouldn't be taken as a sign of anti-oxidant success.
 

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I recall a podcast some time back, cannot recall whose, visiting Australia and being asked how to get "that American flavor" from the imports they got and loved Down Under. Turns out it was the sherry oxidation flavor they were talking about from the trip over. It made me second guess all the Fullers and Hobgobblin flavors I had been trying to make at that time, before my palate went Kolsch/Altbier.
 
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Miraculix

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The following quote, taken from another forum, is from "the" LODO guy. Consider it (or not) as you will.

"Honey is an oxidation flavor. Ever had an import german beer? Is it like that?"

Perhaps the presence of honey sweeteness shouldn't be taken as a sign of anti-oxidant success.
My guess is that different tastes are meant. What I am referring to is a big part of the malt derived flavor of the best German Helles and Pilsners that I know, I doubt that these are heavily tasting like oxidation.

Btw. I never had an import German beer, so I don't know how these taste. I buy my German beers locally.
 
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Well, my AA is almost here.
Obviously, a major consignment for Norway customs. All 500g. Hopefully, it was loaded onto the van carefully by at least two operatives following good practice in manual handling technique at all times.

Being a Scientist, can you kindly point me toward the professional consensus and peer reviewed scientific data you obtained before making your decision to dump some ascorbic in your mash? I’m curious about the chemistry and of course tested and professionally recommended dosing etc. Looking forward to the data. Thank you.
 
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McMullan

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Being a Scientist, can you kindly point me toward the professional consensus and peer reviewed scientific data you obtained before making your decision to dump some ascorbic in your mash? I’m curious about the chemistry and of course tested and professionally recommended dosing etc. Looking forward to the data. Thank you.

Not a lot to go on, is there? My participation here is one for ‘community science’ and, as such, I‘ll keep things comparable to what @Miraculix has been doing. My main interest, though, is to see if makes a noticeable difference in my Yorkshire square:
 
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Bilsch

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Not a lot to go on, is there? My participation here is one for ‘community science’ and, as such, I‘lol keep things comparable to what @Miraculix has been doing. My main interest, though, is to see if makes a noticeable difference in my Yorkshire square:

Of course, citizen science is fine for exploring AA as a fix for oxidation in the mash. But sulfites, yeast deox and a mash cap? Well, I can certainly understand such complicated things need to be held to a higher standard of evidence before attempting those.

My apologies to the OP for the short detour. Or maybe not a detour at all since we are both headed to the same destination.
 
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McMullan

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Of course, citizen science is fine for exploring AA as a fix for oxidation in the mash. But sulfites, yeast deox and a mash cap? Well, I can certainly understand such complicated things need to be held to a higher standard of evidence before attempting those.

Ironically, reactive oxygen species are conclusive biomarkers for life on Earth. Resistance is futile. Most people are wired to cope with, even enjoy, a surprising level of oxidation. And some aren’t. Most people probably couldn’t tell any difference. Serving temperature probably has a bigger effect than LODO 🥶
 
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WalletHocker

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I feel myself oxidizing as I read this thread... it's not overly enjoyable. The sudden urge for a colonic and a multi-vitamin is overwhelming.

I make a gallon of Rooibos or Green/Lemongrass/Mint tea a week. Most of the time I will squeeze a fresh lemon in the tea. The consequence of not doing so results in the tea darkening noticeably within 24hrs and by the end of the week it is no longer light red or green/yellow but instead almost black with muted flavors.

The oxidized tea doesn't necessarily taste bad but keeping the tea fresh, given a choice, would be my preference.

I've tried adding AA and BTB to my tea and they both seem to accomplish the same as the lemon.

I've not tried sulfites in tea but can't image they'd be too appetizing.

Point being that death besets all of us from the same substances that sustains us.

65ce86.jpg
 

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As I mash in a picnic cooler tun, and sparge/lauter in a seperate bucket-in-a-bucket setup and need to scoop över the mash to that before draining the first wort, recirculate it and then add sparge water, I have been eying this thread.
I think about trying ascorbic acid in mash so I might minimize the effect oxygen can have in my process pre boil, and then see if I notice any difference.
I will also next bottling session attach the bottling wand directly to the fermenter and add sugar solution to each bottle with a medicinal dosing pipette, ie forgo the bottling bucket.

Just a few questions, as I understood it 3.5g/20L post boil or 0.175g/L is a good dose in the mash.
However this is an acid, albeit a weak one, but how does it affect mash PH? I have started doing a Brittish approach to salt additions and have tap water with a residual alkalinity at about 100mg/L HCO3, will the additional PH lowering of AA be so marginal it's nothing to worry about?
 

Taket_al_Tauro

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Anyone measured the pH difference between a beer with AA added and the same beer with no addition? It occurs to me that a difference in pH might be noticeable and perceived as less "dull." I know a brewer who routinely adds citric acid to their finished IPAs for that reason.

However this is an acid, albeit a weak one, but how does it affect mash PH? I have started doing a Brittish approach to salt additions and have tap water with a residual alkalinity at about 100mg/L HCO3, will the additional PH lowering of AA be so marginal it's nothing to worry about?

I never added AA to the mash but I already added it a couple of times to NEIPA-style beers at dry-hopping time, following a dosage of approx. 1 gram / gallon (I know, this is a lot and based on what I read here and elsewhere recently, it is probably not necessary to use as much...I'll try to reduce the dosage going forward). Anyway, on one of these beers with a big dry hop I measured the pH right before the AA addition/dry hopping, and then after dry hopping and prior to packaging.
Granted, I did not single out the AA variable because of course it was confounded with the dry hopping. And it is well known that a big dry hop will raise the pH at least a bit.
Long story short, I actually observed an increase of about 0.08 - 0.1 pH which is consistent with the predicted pH-raising effect of the dry hops.
So if the AA did have an effect on pH, it was most probably either negligible or really small.
 
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Miraculix

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As I mash in a picnic cooler tun, and sparge/lauter in a seperate bucket-in-a-bucket setup and need to scoop över the mash to that before draining the first wort, recirculate it and then add sparge water, I have been eying this thread.
I think about trying ascorbic acid in mash so I might minimize the effect oxygen can have in my process pre boil, and then see if I notice any difference.
I will also next bottling session attach the bottling wand directly to the fermenter and add sugar solution to each bottle with a medicinal dosing pipette, ie forgo the bottling bucket.

Just a few questions, as I understood it 3.5g/20L post boil or 0.175g/L is a good dose in the mash.
However this is an acid, albeit a weak one, but how does it affect mash PH? I have started doing a Brittish approach to salt additions and have tap water with a residual alkalinity at about 100mg/L HCO3, will the additional PH lowering of AA be so marginal it's nothing to worry about?
I never did readings, but I also never had problems with the mash. I just continue using 0-2% (depending on the colour of the grains) of the grist as acidulated malt to compensate for alkalinity of the water. Have not changed anything and everything still works as it did pre ascorbic acid additions.
 

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Well, my AA is finally waiting to be collected at the local shop. I'll be using a house ale recipe as 'with' vs 'without' batches. I'll know if the pH drops, mainly because I measure pH. Then my favourite pilsner recipe, I think. Half batches and double brew day to keep things as comparable as possible.
 

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As I mash in a picnic cooler tun, and sparge/lauter in a seperate bucket-in-a-bucket setup and need to scoop över the mash to that before draining the first wort, recirculate it and then add sparge water, I have been eying this thread.
When I was using a cooler MT I would empty the MT into the BK and pour the sparge water onto the grain, give it a quick stir and drain that into the BK. I always got really good extraction. Of course you could also split the sparge and run water through you grains twice.

Also I use about 1/2 g in the MT and 1/2 g at 20 left in the boil and it has been working for me, but I'm also using same dose of Kmeta and a tad more BtB at the same times.
 

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OMFG! Just got charged 250kr (about €25) customs admin fee plus 25% VAT. That''s the 3rd f*cking VAT charge on this AA 🤔 This is the most expensive AA in the world, FFS! 😱 Apparently, 'food' is exempt from Norway's new 'VOEC system' for imports. Norway, officially the world's least self-sufficient country, has profiteering restrictions on 'food' imports? You couldn't make it up. The meanest of savages. I really need this AA to work like a f*cking charm. My wife swung by the shop on her way home and unwittingly paid the bill. I would've told them to F right off 😂
 
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CascadesBrewer

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OMFG! Just got charged 250kr (about €25) customs admin fee plus 25% VAT.

Ouch! I could have picked up a 1 lb bag off Amazon for $13 USD, including delivery. I was not sure I really needed 1 lb, so I just adding a 1 oz bag for $2.09 to a RiteBrew yeast order.

I am not 100% sure what I plan to do with it. I might brew another batch of a NEIPA this weekend and can throw 3-5g in the mash. I did not notice any issues in my last batch that I think AA would fix, but that (2.5 gal) batch only lasted about 2 weeks after being kegged. I have always used Campden tablets to treat my brewing water for chloramine. With my last NEIPA I added 1/2 a crushed campden tablet when I added the dry hops. I also picked up a 2 oz bag of powder Potassium Metabisulfite.

Eventually I want to cycle back and try bottling an NEIPA testing the impact on Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium Metabisulfite. But I probably need a few iterations of brewing a NEIPA to get it where I want first.
 
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